I'd switch Tool and DEP for Opeth and Fates Warning easily(Even though Spectre Within is very Power'y, it still had a bunch of Progressive elements to be worth mentioning). I mean, yeah yeah Tool and DEP sell... But like I said, even just name dropping or showing a cover on the reel he does of those bands would be awesome.

So we've all arrived at the conclusion Metal Evolution misinforms (perhaps even disinforms) its viewers with each episode. Do we also agree that it is imperative that we, as fans, have a duty to counter with information based on independent research, interviewing, et cetera? If so, does anyone here have any knowledge on film editing, cinematography, et cetera? Why don't our most erudite and sophisticated collectively try to produce a Metal documentary? More than a share of bright minds exist on this very forum.

That sounds amazing. Start a new thread. Collectively we are the metal informative.

You guys act like literally everything he said is wrong. In the 3 episodes I saw, there was definitely a bit of wrong information, but it wasn't to the point that he was doing a disservice to metal. If anyone gets interested in the music because of his show, then it's a success. They will inevitably do their own research and realize that some of the things he said weren't 100% accurate.

It amazes me how negative people are that someone is trying to give metal more attention.

If you're gonna do a series about a decades old musical genre that also encompasses lots of sub-divisions, twists and turns, then do it fucking RIGHT.

LOL, I trust the hive mind to "do it right" about as much as I do Dunn. I'd be interested to see anyone give it a whirl so long as an actual effort is expended, but my expectations will be guarded at best regardless about who does it.

Maybe, but Fates Warning? One of the PRIMARY progenitors? Unforgiveable.

Yeah, I can see where focusing on non-metal bands at the expense of metal bands would throw the whole thing into a credibility crisis.

Well, at least Fates Warning and Uriah Heep were on his original "Metal Family Tree"



...so chances are that he is aware of the band, but somehow he couldn't get them for the episode (or the band didn't wat to, who knows...)

I like the pre-metal episode, it's the stuff my parents listened too growing up and still play around the house. My parents never tried to force any of their music on me but perhaps them passively playing it around me as I grew up was what steered me towards metal and rock music? I have known that Black Sabbath and other's are rooted in metal I just always thought of them as my parent's music. Now I am kind of picturing them as pre-metal fans but also amusing enough as elitist-scumbags since they hated all the new stuff that followed after a lot of those earlier pre-metal bands.

I liked what I saw of it, I suppose.
I would like to see Doom and Sludge explored more, same with Neo Folk.

I just finished watching the (European) power metal episode. It was ok when Dunn was discussing the origins of (European) power metal, but the way he characterized the whole genre as being little more then a purely European creation based on a bunch of D&D nerds who were nostalgic for classic metal kinda pissed me off.

I somehow agree with you, but... truly... besides Manowar (funny DeMaio refused to talk to Dunn... I wonder why ) and perhaps Iced Earth, what other USA bands could have been interviewed by Dunn for this episode?

Virgin Steele, for instance.

Our first episode, episode one, would probably as long as Roots: The Miniseries was in it's entire length. Dating back to when cavemen would beat wood on a rock (probably focus on stonehenge a little, what's more stoned that that shit?), to drums, to wind instruments, to strings, to combination, to blues, to jazz, to rock, then the real meat of the episode would be who the first metal band actually was.

It's key to remember MA is just a focused community. Some of the most popular bands here aren't known in the real world. Some of the most well know bands in the real world, aren't well known here. This is bound to happen.

If Dunn is portraying power metal as a largely Eurocentric genre, he's dead on. There's popularity for the music outside of Europe in places like Brazil and Japan, but the truth is that power metal has never been terribly relevant in the US for the last 20 years outside of brief bouts of minor popularity for Dragonforce, Iced Earth, and Blind Guardian (two of which are European bands). The mass of popular bands are European in origin. Even back in the 80s it was second banana to thrash here. And who the hell cares about Virgin Steele? That band doesn't matter.

I have no idea who Sam Dunn is, but why are you watching VH1? Remove it from your life, you will be a happier person.

While I do agree Power Metal is considerably less popular in America than Europe, you have to keep in mind America's interpretation of the style is vastly different than their European counterparts. Underground in popularity, USPM tends to be built on riffs, speed, proggy time signatures and, on occasion, shredding, which is why you have bands like Omen, Riot, Savage Grace, Fates Warning, Manilla Road, Slauter Xystroyes, Symphony X, et cetera. Euro PM leans toward keyboard-driven atmosphere, intricate solos and speed. Curiously, the early German scene (Walls of Jericho Helloween, Battalions of Fear Blind Guardian, Running Wild, Scanner, et cetera) has much more in common with USPM than what would come to fruition years later.

The movie was suggested in passing rather than a proposition as a serious project. As far as the Metal movie is concerned, pre-production, let alone production, would much planning and prep work, and I fully recognize I'm not the one to undertake such a project as I have negligible experience and research. Besides, I'm not even aware of the direction I'd want to pursue. As such, I regretfully can't assume the mantle.

You sir, have made a very powerful enemy this day.

Nevermore, Savatage and Metal Church.

If he's suggesting they're not any good well then yeah, that's silly, but I can see what he means in a sense of commercialism and stuff that would appeal to a large audience. Shame they don't appeal to a mass audience, really.

TBH I am not a power metal fan. However, from a perspective of doing a 43 minute (or hell, doing a 90 minute or 120 minute) documentary on power metal, I don't see the need to call in bands like Virgin Steele or Jag Panzer as necessary requirements to giving a decent view of that style. I just don't. Commercially they don't sell, as far as their place goes in the pantheon of great bands, I doubt any of them would break most people's top 100 in the genre, they're pretty well topped by far better bands of European vintage and with far greater popularity within Europe, etc etc etc. Like I said before: if you're going to go outside Western Europe to discuss power metal, go to countries where the popularity is far greater and the bands more relevant and numerous. Go to Brazil. Go to Turkey. Go to Greece. Go to Japan. But the US lacks the interest and fanbase those nations have for this style of music. This is the country where Blind Guardian didn't get a proper US release until Nightfall in Middle Earth and Ample Destruction went out of print for about a decade. I also don't totally see some of these bands being referred to here as acts that should have been referenced (specifically; Nevermore and Symphony X) as being true "power metal" acts.

This doesn't make power metal bad or whatever. I'm not trying to pass an objective judgement here about the quality of what these bands do. I just don't see the proper story of power metal as being something that one can't tell without the likes of some of these lesser known, and frankly non-vital US based acts.

Guess I just can't agree with you on this one. Bands such as Virgin Steele or Jag Panzer actually would be useful to at least point the main differences (which are pretty obvious, by the way) between USPM and European variations.

The differences, however slight, have little to do with the genre's popularity and frankly its evolution and growth. Stuff like arena rock, video game music, and melodic death metal have had infinitely more effect on the genre of power metal outside (and inside, to great extent) the realms of the USA and Canada. Like I said before: Hammerfall is considered a key artist in the genre, and they have all the legitimacy of N'Sync, regardless of how they like to word their history now. I just don't see anything special about American power metal that makes it any more notable than any other scenes known for having power metal scenes with larger fanbases, like as an example, Italy.

It's a pretty strong argument the one you have there, and looks like I'll have to agree with it once and for all (save for the part when you say that American and European power metal are only slightly different). I still want to slap you for insulting Virgin Steele though

Lol siggied

Edit: actually never mind, I have no idea how to do that...
Edit2: oh wait yay

The documentary "Such Hawks Such Hounds" explores doom metal as well as stoner rock, and its WAY better than anything Dunn could put together

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-njKCr6ieKE

I enjoyed that documentary. Palm Desert Scene and Doom/Stoner/Sludge's origins has always interested me.

I've also been told Slow Southern Steel is a great Sludge/Stoner documentary as well. Unfortunately it's a bit hard to watch it, since it seems to be only screening around America.

I don't think that should be an appropriate line of thought to go by. There is so much of metal that isn't appealing to a large audience and yet still integral to the genre. I don't think Dunn should have the right to pick out bits and pieces just because it sells. All awhile leaving info gaps and general misinformation in his wake. I'd even go so far as to say that is irresponsible.

Just irresponsible? That motherfucker has been releasing misinforming pieces of crap since he gained notoriety. He's an outright pain in the ass to anyone trying to learn about metal, as even Wikipedia is a better source than him.

If you were going to make a documentary film on, say, death metal, would you be required to spend significant time on the Malay death metal scene simply because one exists? At some point, you have to look at what is and is not really relevant to the story you're trying to tell and leave out that which isn't relevant, otherwise you get an unfocused mess of a program.

Speaking of Metal documentaries, this little item has been brought to my attention thanks to Scruff of Hellbastard. From what I've heard and judging by the list of interviewees, it seems quite riveting and informative. I look forward to seeing it.

It talks about Pentagram and Wino's various bands, but I can't really say it's a good doc on Doom and it's missing some important info on Sludge. But it's really comes off as focusing on Stoner Metal, which it did a great job of. I'd say it's good at including those two genres in relevance to Stoner though, and I agree way better then anything Dunn, although I guess I'd say Global Metal is the best about it's topic, considering there's nothing about it.

Well you are correct there, but even still there is certainly a better medium between good story telling and in depth amount of information then what Dunn is creating.

...has anybody seen the "metal documentaries" made by Bill Zebub in the USA? Three on Black Metal, two on Death Metal and one about Pagan Metal (which I think is currently on the works for a second expanded version) I for one enjoyed "Death Metal: A Documentary" with people from Mortician and Brutal Truth, among others...

I don't have anything to add to the discussion except that this a terrible, terrible example. I don't think anybody's insisting that he has to cover every single obscure nook and corner of the genres, they're pointing out that he's leaving out historically significant information to focus on stuff that, while more immediately recognizable and relevant to a mainstream audience, has very little to do with the intended topic.

First of all, I'm obviously using the example of Malaysia for effect. Second; When it comes to power metal, almost none of it is relevant to a mainstream audience in the US or Canada. Obviously there will be those who disagree with me that these bands aren't historically significant enough to merit inclusion or heavy coverage. That's fine. Everyone has opinions, blah blah blah. But I've yet to hear a stirring argument as to what precise reason the American bands were so significant that they deserved special attention over anyone that was shown or any other acts that were excluded. The style variation was, in my mind, minor at best among bands that were "true" power metal acts. So what bands did they specifically influence, and how did they influence them in different ways than their peers in Europe? How did the scene grow? Who did they sell records to? Who bought tickets to see them play? How many more tickets did they sell than their peers? I'm just not seeing this. I'm seeing "I think they're important and I like them, ergo they should be part of a documentary."

^^^For some reason I forgot you were talking specifically about the power metal episode. Don't mind me.

^THIS!

I will probably sound a bit harsh --and who knows? I could make a powerful enemy today as well-- but, during my many years traveling to other countries, exchanging ideas via snail-mail back in the day and meting metalheads from other nations and cultures, I had never heard of "US Power Metal" per se. Sure, Jag Panzer, Metal Church and Virgin Steele (the bands ointed out to me) were out there, and so were Riot, Savatage, Nevermore, Omen, etc. But seriously, as far as I remember, never, NEVER were those bands considered "USPM"... not back then. To us, at the very least, my friend and I here in Colombia, or in Spain, or Argentina, Mexico, those bands were mainly part of the US heavy metal scene that was overshadowed by the rise of Glam and Thrash; US Heavy Metal with a hint of Speed (Metal Church, Omen) or more traditional, obscure heavy metal (Manowar and Virgin Steele) or with a hint of Progressive influences (Savatage) or even Thrash/Progressive (Sanctuary/Nevermore). I've yet to find the first reference of "USPM" in my Metal Hammer collection from the 80's or early 90's. Really.

The only exception would probably be Riot but, in 1988, that was considered Speed Metal, along with the german speed metal scene that was starting to gain some reputation outside Fortress Europa. Then, around the mid-90's, the name "Iced Earth" started to appear in different magazines, together with albums by Blind Guardian, Gamma Ray and Helloween. And that was a bit late to talk about "influence" on the sub-genre. If any of you can track down the first reference to "USPM" please let me know, because I think --and this is my opinion-- that USPM was a made-up term created to label those bands with that started with that heavy/speed sound and evolved following a path different to the one taken by the european counterparts.

USPM or US Heavy Metal remained underground or almost non-relevant during the 90's, with a small but loyal fanbase that kept the bands alive, but not comercially succesful. The big exception to the rule would be, of course, Iced Earth; one of the few american heavy metal bands that had impact on the metal scene worldwide. Manowar was virtualy ignored by the american public, but they've always had a huge following in Europe, almost a cult status, and I'd say they're the only american power metal band that had an influence in european Power Metal bands. That's why I think Dunn was right in focusing almost only on European Power Metal. Just my two cents.

PS. Seriously; if any of you could track down the first appareances of the term "USPM" in heavy metal magazines, please do let me know. I'm really curious.

PS2. Sorry for the typos and the awful grammar. English is not my native language and this was written in a hurry.

Well, look at what we're talking about here. We are talking about a high-profile metal documentary show covering the basics of every genre. While I would certainly argue for Virgin Steele's and Jag Panzer's inclusion into a documentary going further into depth on power metal, if it's just a mainstream show covering the bare basics, those bands aren't exactly the forefront of their genre commercially or critically, being that they release albums infrequently and one of them is broken up now anyway. Obviously the super popular bands like Blind Guardian, Helloween and Manowar would get mentioned above all others.

I don't really care about or watch the show itself though...