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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:46 pm 
 

One thing that I enjoy most about metal music is the tone and overall sound of electric guitars. I particularly enjoy the sound of Hail Of Bullets and if there ever was a seemingly perfect tone, tuning, and overall sound for their kind of music or genre that is it.

Hail Of Bullets is just one band that produces that grinding, buzzsaw type of guitar sound. Others I can think of include Dismember, Graveyard, and Demonical, just to name a few. You know it when you hear it. :)

My questions are thus:

How do they get such an incredible amount of sustain? It seems that when a note or chord is played it doesn't lose ANY volume or power...forever! A note can seemingly be held indefinitely without any attenuation. What is used to achieve that element of their guitar sound/production?

Other than active pickups, which I use (EMGs), and some effects to change tone, etc., I still can't put my finger on what they do to keep that guitar alive and full for so damn long. I'd love some thoughts and ideas about how this is done. Thanks in advance.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:19 pm 
 

It's a combination of a lot of elements for both the tone and sustain. It's not just a guitar/pedal/amp, but also the microphones and their placement, plus how the guitars are mixed with the other instruments.

Various bands have mentioned a lot of different things, but I think the studio sound is helped the most by layering and not using exactly the same setup for left and right. Having a total of four guitar tracks with some crossfading is going to help thicken it up a lot, as well as micing and mixing to relatively reduce the impulse of the pick attack - this is a terribly worded description, but I can't think of better words. Playing one guitar and hearing it through the amp, you will hear more of a volume difference between the initial attack of the note, and it will be quieter as it fades out. When you record it, a little bit of that dynamic is reduced, and when everything is heavily distorted, there's less as far as loud/soft dynamics. When you have four guitar tracks doing this at once, you further reduce that.

Disclaimer: This is probably a terrible explanation, but I'm not sure how to describe it better in words.

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:24 pm 
 

Look the best way to get that Buzzsaw Guitar tone is get a Boss HM2. That's pretty much it.

http://youtu.be/b-1vcuKcXeI
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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:35 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
It's a combination of a lot of elements for both the tone and sustain. It's not just a guitar/pedal/amp, but also the microphones and their placement, plus how the guitars are mixed with the other instruments.

Various bands have mentioned a lot of different things, but I think the studio sound is helped the most by layering and not using exactly the same setup for left and right. Having a total of four guitar tracks with some crossfading is going to help thicken it up a lot, as well as micing and mixing to relatively reduce the impulse of the pick attack - this is a terribly worded description, but I can't think of better words. Playing one guitar and hearing it through the amp, you will hear more of a volume difference between the initial attack of the note, and it will be quieter as it fades out. When you record it, a little bit of that dynamic is reduced, and when everything is heavily distorted, there's less as far as loud/soft dynamics. When you have four guitar tracks doing this at once, you further reduce that.

Disclaimer: This is probably a terrible explanation, but I'm not sure how to describe it better in words.


This is the stuff I'm looking for. And, I'm a tech person, so wordy is fine. The more details the better. :)
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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:35 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
Look the best way to get that Buzzsaw Guitar tone is get a Boss HM2. That's pretty much it.

http://youtu.be/b-1vcuKcXeI


Heh, cool, thanks.

FWIW, I can get pretty good tones w/ my POD X3 Live and various software, as well. For this application, I'm currently using an ESP LTD MH-417 (7-string) with EMG 81-7 bridge/EMG-707 neck humbuckers. Along with the buzzsaw sound, which is very cool but not mandatory for me, I'm mostly interested in how that tone is sustained for seemingly endless duration by bands like Hail Of Bullets and Dismember.
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Last edited by Misfit74 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:38 pm 
 

You are welcome, and it's not a joke. Really getting that pedal is pretty much the only way to achieve that tone.

Nothing else does.

Now what zodi said really does apply to the sustain for sure. But as far as the tone do yourself a favor and buy that pedal. I did and i'm super glad I did.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:39 pm 
 

The HM-2 is an essential part of it, but doesn't do it alone. If you run it in stereo with a DS-1 on the other channel, it's even more swe-deathy.

I need to play around some more with recording tricks that I've heard regarding it, since I've heard a lot but I'm not sure about the validity of many of them.

Also, the Behringer HM300 is almost a replica of the HM-2 and they're cheap and still in production.

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:49 pm 
 

never messed with either the other pedals meantioned but if you check in my signature the Draug link that's the first thing I used the hm2 to record with and I didn't do anything as far equing to the guitars just cause I wanted them to be that raw and nasty.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:04 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
never messed with either the other pedals meantioned but if you check in my signature the Draug link that's the first thing I used the hm2 to record with and I didn't do anything as far equing to the guitars just cause I wanted them to be that raw and nasty.


Sounds really dirty, perhaps more like a low RPM chainsaw than other "chainsaw tones". It seems incredibly appropriate that you record chainsaw sound in a shed... :P

What guitar/mic setup did you use with that? I'd like to figure out what the differences in various similar tones are - i.e. Stockholm sound from Sunlight Studios, Hail of Bullets, and clones of those bands.

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:29 pm 
 

Well I know the main difference in how I achieved that tone was I'm tuned to G-standard. Far far down below most of the swedish bands. I was going for something Moondark but I think i went even lower.

But if you want to know exactly the setup on guitar:

BC RICH Bronze series Warlock from the mid 90's with stock pickups
Doraldo 6 string (it's some weird off brand i've never seen anywhere else)
Both played through my ampeg ss150 on the clean channel so all the distortion comes from the pedal. it's exactly how they set it up in that video totally everything up to 11.

recorded with a Shure SM57
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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:07 am 
 

This thread rules!

Clearly, I'm now on the hunt for a Boss HM-2. :) Found some around the web, but gonna check some local shops first. I noticed that Behringer HM300 can be had new for about $20.00. I wonder just how close it is to the HM-2?

A couple more notes: I run my setup either direct to the PC through the POD X3 Live or the X3 then through a Randall RG100SC (G2 Series). With the 7-string (mentioned above) I use it typically in B Standard tuning, but can drop it to A or G pretty easily, as well. I use different ESP Ltd EC-400 (6-string) for the higher tunings.
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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:17 am 
 

Excerpt from an interview with Stephan Gebédi of Hail Of Bullets provided these couple of tidbits to add to this discussion:

Blistering.com: The guitars have a deep, raw sound. How did you achieve this sound? What tuning, equipment, etc. did you use?

SG: "We used a drop B-tuning, neck-thru B.C. Rich guitars with very thick strings (I for instance use Elixir Baritone strings .012-.68). The actual raw sound was created by Dan; he has some little tricks and secrets that he keeps to himself. Right now we're trying to reproduce the album sound with our own amps and that works pretty well, Paul uses a basic Marshall JCM800 2210 head and 1960 Marshall cabinets and I just bought the Marshall JCM800 2203 Kerry King Signature Head which works wonderfully well. My Marshall cabinets have a combination of Greenback and Vintage 30 speakers and we're coming pretty close to the album sound I must say."
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:29 pm 
 

Misfit74 wrote:
This thread rules!

Clearly, I'm now on the hunt for a Boss HM-2. :) Found some around the web, but gonna check some local shops first. I noticed that Behringer HM300 can be had new for about $20.00. I wonder just how close it is to the HM-2?

A couple more notes: I run my setup either direct to the PC through the POD X3 Live or the X3 then through a Randall RG100SC (G2 Series). With the 7-string (mentioned above) I use it typically in B Standard tuning, but can drop it to A or G pretty easily, as well. I use different ESP Ltd EC-400 (6-string) for the higher tunings.


It's pretty damn close, I believe it's an exactly clone electronically but I've just heard that, not verified. I'd say stick to B tuning.

Misfit74 wrote:
Excerpt from an interview with Stephan Gebédi of Hail Of Bullets provided these couple of tidbits to add to this discussion:

Blistering.com: The guitars have a deep, raw sound. How did you achieve this sound? What tuning, equipment, etc. did you use?

SG: "We used a drop B-tuning, neck-thru B.C. Rich guitars with very thick strings (I for instance use Elixir Baritone strings .012-.68). The actual raw sound was created by Dan; he has some little tricks and secrets that he keeps to himself. Right now we're trying to reproduce the album sound with our own amps and that works pretty well, Paul uses a basic Marshall JCM800 2210 head and 1960 Marshall cabinets and I just bought the Marshall JCM800 2203 Kerry King Signature Head which works wonderfully well. My Marshall cabinets have a combination of Greenback and Vintage 30 speakers and we're coming pretty close to the album sound I must say."


I believe Swano uses Guitar -> HM-2 -> line-in -> amp sim software. He might split the signal and mix the HM'd signal with an unpedaled signal, I'm not sure but that's my guess.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:57 pm 
 

i recommend getting the hm300. Its very cheap and it gets very close to the classic HM2 sound. I have both and currently i use to the HM300 when i practice and i want to use the HM2 if i ever play live. I know Dismember always used just a hm2 and peavey 5150 amps. Afaik only Entombed used DS1's on left hand path.

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:53 pm 
 

hell i might even look at that hm300. hell found quite a few for 20 bucks.


just for shits ans giggles
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:35 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
i recommend getting the hm300. Its very cheap and it gets very close to the classic HM2 sound. I have both and currently i use to the HM300 when i practice and i want to use the HM2 if i ever play live. I know Dismember always used just a hm2 and peavey 5150 amps. Afaik only Entombed used DS1's on left hand path.


I believe LHP and the Nihilist demos were HM-2/DS-1 split in stereo, Dismember mixed the HM-2 sound and the amp distortion differently at times.

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
hell i might even look at that hm300. hell found quite a few for 20 bucks.


just for shits ans giggles


Do it!

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:04 pm 
 

I think I shall and then just compare them side by side. probably maybe even mix the two together.
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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:14 am 
 

After checking all the local and nearby area's shops to no avail, I ordered a HM-2 today via eBay and should have it in a week or so. Heck, might have to get the hm300 at some point and maybe run them together, lol. Kinda felt I had to get an HM-2 while I could still find one and find one at a somewhat reasonable price ($71.00 shipped). The hm300 is widely available and cheap so that can come later. The HM-2 should be fun as hell for trying to get much closer to the tones I like the most - from old Celtic Frost to current day Hail Of Bullets and Asphyx and being able to record some covers and see how close I can get. I appreciate all the feedback.

Of course, we can keep this thread going if others have ideas, tips, tricks, etc. to add to the discussion. :)
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:47 am 
 

only tip is I wasn't sure what you meant when you said use them together. as in a mix one on each guitar track like I plan to do? or do you mean hooking them both up as you play one guitar? Cause how they both break up the signal since they are distortion pedals and not overdrives... they are going to cancel each other out and you'll have some shitty crackly sorta clean sound that's garbage.
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kahuka
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:44 pm 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-1vcuKcXeI

All knobs to max! Good luck :)

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:20 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
tomcat_ha wrote:
i recommend getting the hm300. Its very cheap and it gets very close to the classic HM2 sound. I have both and currently i use to the HM300 when i practice and i want to use the HM2 if i ever play live. I know Dismember always used just a hm2 and peavey 5150 amps. Afaik only Entombed used DS1's on left hand path.


I believe LHP and the Nihilist demos were HM-2/DS-1 split in stereo, Dismember mixed the HM-2 sound and the amp distortion differently at times.


yeah but the HM2 always was maxed out.

Celtic frost didnt use a hm2. Tom G warrior has stated that he always has used a ibanez tubescreamer.

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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:39 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
only tip is I wasn't sure what you meant when you said use them together. as in a mix one on each guitar track like I plan to do? or do you mean hooking them both up as you play one guitar? Cause how they both break up the signal since they are distortion pedals and not overdrives... they are going to cancel each other out and you'll have some shitty crackly sorta clean sound that's garbage.


What I was thinking of doing eventually (if I later add the Behringer HM300), is use a dual-tone setup through my X3 and pan each tone away from each other, i.e. tone1 left and tone2 right. Haven't hammered out all the details, yet, but that's my idea for using them simultaneously. I wouldn't use one right into the other.

Who knows, I may be so happy with the HM-2 that I never get the other one. I can get some comparable tones to what I want with the X3, so maybe I won't get the Behringer.

Also, a few bands I'm fairly certain use this thread's topic sound that I'll list and perhaps you tell let me know if some are for sure correct, incorrect, or add bands that also use the sound that I may not have detected (or don't now of right off the top of my head). If you want to take it a step further, feel free to list the tuning(s) of the bands if you happen to be sure of it or what mostly is used by said band. The list:

Hail Of Bullets - B std, drop B
Dismember
Entombed
Graveyard
Interment
Asphyx (?)
Bloodbath (?)
Vomitory (?)
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somefella
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:59 pm 
 

Misfit74 wrote:
ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
only tip is I wasn't sure what you meant when you said use them together. as in a mix one on each guitar track like I plan to do? or do you mean hooking them both up as you play one guitar? Cause how they both break up the signal since they are distortion pedals and not overdrives... they are going to cancel each other out and you'll have some shitty crackly sorta clean sound that's garbage.


What I was thinking of doing eventually (if I later add the Behringer HM300), is use a dual-tone setup through my X3 and pan each tone away from each other, i.e. tone1 left and tone2 right. Haven't hammered out all the details, yet, but that's my idea for using them simultaneously. I wouldn't use one right into the other.

Who knows, I may be so happy with the HM-2 that I never get the other one. I can get some comparable tones to what I want with the X3, so maybe I won't get the Behringer.

Also, a few bands I'm fairly certain use this thread's topic sound that I'll list and perhaps you tell let me know if some are for sure correct, incorrect, or add bands that also use the sound that I may not have detected (or don't now of right off the top of my head). If you want to take it a step further, feel free to list the tuning(s) of the bands if you happen to be sure of it or what mostly is used by said band. The list:

Hail Of Bullets - B std, drop B
Dismember
Entombed
Graveyard
Interment
Asphyx (?)
Bloodbath (?)
Vomitory (?)


Don't you mean Grave instead of Graveyard?

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:47 pm 
 

somefella, he's talking about the death metal band Graveyard. Not the stupid stoner rock shit name stealing graveyard.

kahuka I posted that video in my first post in this thread, aka the 2nd post.


Maybe take a second and at least glance through the thread. It's not that long.

I think Entombed played in D but I don't know. I never really paid attention to those things.
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Grimmig
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:36 pm 
 

Pretty happy with the HM300, but if any of you use amp sims and the like, I'd recommend checking out Amplitube's metal pack. Even if you bypass the amps / cabs within, they have a "Metal Distortion 2" pedal which is supposed to also be a clone of the HM2. I can't really record my guitar through my amp, so this is the way I generally go.

If you're curious as to how it sounds, I've used this in a few song challenges (the recent "Black Metal Blackout" one as well as "Tsushima" for the Jan/Feb 2011 challenge). I'm not very good at mixing but I'm relatively happy with how it sounds.
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kahuka
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:14 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
Maybe take a second and at least glance through the thread. It's not that long.


I did and I guess I missed it. Why are you so cranky?

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:09 pm 
 

Because that's how the internet works.
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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:41 pm 
 

Grimmig wrote:
Pretty happy with the HM300, but if any of you use amp sims and the like, I'd recommend checking out Amplitube's metal pack. Even if you bypass the amps / cabs within, they have a "Metal Distortion 2" pedal which is supposed to also be a clone of the HM2. I can't really record my guitar through my amp, so this is the way I generally go.


Good tip. I'll check it out.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:54 pm 
 

Misfit74 wrote:
Hail Of Bullets - B std, drop B
Dismember
Entombed
Graveyard
Interment
Asphyx (?)
Bloodbath (?)
Vomitory (?)


Dismember primarily play in B, a few songs use C# (on Massive Killing Capacity)
Entombed tuned to C and B on the early ones, they used Drop Bb on some of Wolverine Blues, no idea after that.
Asphyx tuned to B for all of the stuff I know.

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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:25 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Misfit74 wrote:
Hail Of Bullets - B std, drop B
Dismember
Entombed
Graveyard
Interment
Asphyx (?)
Bloodbath (?)
Vomitory (?)


Dismember primarily play in B, a few songs use C# (on Massive Killing Capacity)
Entombed tuned to C and B on the early ones, they used Drop Bb on some of Wolverine Blues, no idea after that.
Asphyx tuned to B for all of the stuff I know.


Fantastic. :)
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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:09 pm 
 

Update:

I got the pedal in the mail a few days ago. I'm THRILLED! It does exactly what I wanted and is, of course, as advertised. Swedeath goodness. :) As far as the setup, I'm still messing around with it, but a few things I'll mention in case anyone is interested.

I'm currently using in the FX Loop of my POD X3 Live. I've boosted the upper frequencies of of the EQ in order to brighten up the buzzsaw sound a bit. It sounds fan-fucking-tastic! Also, I can run the loop with either or both dual-tones in addition to the FX Loop (Boss HM-2), so there is plenty of flexibility in modding the sound, which I'll continue to play around with. I haven't yet done too much with the pedal > X3L method, but will try it if for the purposes of learning if nothing else. The guitar > pedal > amp sounds fantastic, too with both my 6 and 7-strings - both have EMG active pickups, and though I expected good sustain, I'm really blown away by how much I get with the pedal included. Really, it's a fantastic match to the sounds I've been searching for, such as Hail Of Bullets, Dismember, Demonical, etc. So, thanks again for the head's up.

I also re-strung my 6-string with Ernie Ball light top heavy bottom strings so it can better withstand some minor down-tuning. It handles C and Drop C much better now with considerably better string tension. Should have done that a long time ago.

The hardest part of this now that I have the HM-2 and am using w/ the X3L is getting the proper setting of the FX Loop so I get enough of the HM2 and not too much noise. Having to strike a balance with three things: FX Send, FX Return, and Mix. Current settings are: -47dB, 24dB, 100%.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 11979
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:20 pm 
 

just hurry up and turn out some fucking sick death metal already!
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StinkyPenis
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 348
Location: Bangladesh
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:53 am 
 

Found someone selling an HM-2 and they fucking didn't get back to me. Of course.

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Misfit74
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 1564
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:33 am 
 

StinkyPenis wrote:
Found someone selling an HM-2 and they fucking didn't get back to me. Of course.


Here: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... Categories
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StinkyPenis
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 348
Location: Bangladesh
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:39 am 
 

Misfit74 wrote:
StinkyPenis wrote:
Found someone selling an HM-2 and they fucking didn't get back to me. Of course.


Here: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... Categories


This was on Craigslist for $45. I need to get a new amp and guitar before I get a pedal that much.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 11979
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:47 am 
 

Neither of them are going to give the OP what he wants.
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A bunch of mp3s is not a collection of anything.
http://www.cavepaints.com <--Horrid art and musics.
http://www.facebook.com/MaulerCustomCabs <--- huge heavy/loud boxes I build.
http://speedritualrecords.storenvy.com/ Check out my music here

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1531
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:24 pm 
 

Anyone here that have actually achieved the Swedish death metal sound by just turning everything on the HM2 to max? I tried it both on my Peavey Bandit and 6505 and I just can't dial in a tone that even resembles Entombed or Dismember.

I've read that Entombed used the Bandit on Clandestine, but I'm not sure how they eq:d it.

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Misfit74
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 1564
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:56 pm 
 

Porman wrote:
Anyone here that have actually achieved the Swedish death metal sound by just turning everything on the HM2 to max? I tried it both on my Peavey Bandit and 6505 and I just can't dial in a tone that even resembles Entombed or Dismember.

I've read that Entombed used the Bandit on Clandestine, but I'm not sure how they eq:d it.


Yeah. It actually works fantastically with guitar > hm2 > randall amp for me. I've also toyed with EQ'ing it (with my X3 Live) and that's fun, too, but I pretty much get a great Swedeath tone with just the hm2 all knobs up to full.

Also important are the tuning, strings, and pickups. I uses C or B std. (and lower, too) and EMG active pickups.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 11979
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:16 pm 
 

Yea I've done it exactly like that. Took the distortion off my ampeg took the pedal and dialed everything to 10. instantly sounded like dismember and entombed. I did a quick demo and let a dozen people hear it and and they all came back saying it sounded like dismember.

Also it helps to tune down past D. A and G standard is what i've used before.
_________________
A bunch of mp3s is not a collection of anything.
http://www.cavepaints.com <--Horrid art and musics.
http://www.facebook.com/MaulerCustomCabs <--- huge heavy/loud boxes I build.
http://speedritualrecords.storenvy.com/ Check out my music here

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1531
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:32 pm 
 

I find it too nasal sounding if you drive the high knob on the pedal to the max. It just doesn't sound the same. I was going to use it on our last gig. I tweaked and tried for a couple of days and ultimately gave up in favour of a Line 6 Uber Metal.

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