I was (and still am a bit) sceptical, too. But as I train at some kind of health center (prescriped by my doc for getting my back painfree) and the physiotherapists there are all certfied (by the state) I guess there must be sth to it. And of course you only take weights you manage to repeat 20 times.
However the exercises I do at home with more weight are others than those I do at the cable machines in the gym...

I cycle 20 miles a day and always use the stairs that seems to keep the weight off and the heart in good order.

grauer: I'll repost the rep ranges from page 7:

Tonic Strength (Stability) - 3-5min (This isn't so much a number of reps, as putting the muscle through constant tension to teach it to endure. The goal is to increase the function of the smaller, stabilizing muscles, that are in the core and around all the joints and other places.)
Strength Endurance - 100-180sec (20+ reps)
Strength - 40-70sec (8-12 reps)
Max Strength - [Requires more than 85% of the amount of weight you perform only one single repetition with AKA >85% 1RM) (3-5 reps)
Power - Power - Less than 20 seconds (1-2, maybe 3 reps)

The reason the physios are stressing that you do 20 reps is because they're concerned about developing endurance within your core and stabilizing muscles. That will help prevent the back pain from recurring. In my opinion, 20 reps is fine for the stabilizers, but the core needs to develop tonic strength. Once the ability to maintain perfect form throughout the sets has developed, it's fine to head to heavier weights (or, in other words, lower reps). Physios generally aren't too concerned with building big muscles, as these won't help with prevention of chronic pain in the back. And again... that "more than 12 is overkill" statement shows a misunderstanding about how the muscular systems of the body work, especially considering one of the goals is prevention of pain. I can understand the logic if we're only considering building strength and size, but it's still important to venture into higher rep ranges even with only those goals in mind to avoid hitting a plateau.

Thanks for pointing me towards that list (again). At said centre I have two "courses" two times a week.

After a warm-up ciclying (20min) I have 45 min of spinal gymnastics and reha exercises (which, according to your description, are basically a mix of Tonic Strength training and stretching) and afterwards 45 min of exercises on cable machines (said 2*20 reps, Strength Endurance).
cut short:
MON & WED: both Tonic Strength & Strength Endurance

I'm quite "good" (according to the physios) and seldomly am really corrected (maybe sth like "hold your shoulders there, raise your head a bit while doing xyz) and think I manage to do the exercises quite properly.

I see that the physisos will get me painfree and of course so do I (!!!!!). But it's just that I thought that when I'm already building up muscles I want also to not only get painfree but also a bit bigger and as such train two add. times a week at home with more weight and lower reps with bar- and dumbbells. Talked to my trainer this evening and he said it surely is ok as long as I don't exaggerate the weieghts.
However I'm not sure now if this kind of mix training may be counterproductive in building up a bit of mass as the muscles get too different impulses?

Well good, it sounds like the physios know what they're doing. The mix of workouts isn't something you need to worry about. It's actually similar to a training method known as 'undulating periodization', which is helpful for people with multiple goals. Undulating periodization is kind of like going heavy on Monday, training for size on Wednesday, and training for Endurance on Friday. Each day has it's own sort-of mini-program. In your case, you can think of the work you're doing at home to be training for mass and the work you do at the centre to be training for pain prevention and stability. Just make sure your core is engaged during all exercises at home! Integrate your core into every movement to stay pain-free.

So, no, I wouldn't worry at all about the two styles of training "conflicting" or anything like that. It's not counter-productive at all, I assure you.

EDIT: typo

I'm done with my first month of Max-OT weight training. In the past my training was so sporadic that I never made substantial gains but in one month of relatively consistent training I've noticed tremendous improvement imo and a couple of other friends'. I say relatively consistent compared to the past because I did miss a week of training due to finals which set me back by making me soft once again. I also missed another week of Legs due to too many people already in line to use the squat racks and not enough time to wait for my turn. I did do leg presses and calf raises though. So instead of doing squats on Fridays I'll move them to Mondays to make sure I get them out of the way.

This is my progress so far. I know I'm still a Noob but I'm not the only one out there and have to say it feels awesome to finally get it rolling. I got tired of having the skinny skater look all my life especially when I have to deal with huge guys at the psyche ward on a weekly basis.

All sets are done twice at max overload at 4 to 6 reps.

Monday - Shoulders and Triceps
Dumbbell press - started at 30 lbs and currently at 55 lbs
Military press - 60 - 85
Side laterals - For some reason I'm stuck at 30 after starting at 25. What gives?
Skull crushers - 25 - 40
Tricep press downs - started at 130. The cables can only hold up to 150 so that's where I've been for the past 2 weeks so I need to do more dips.
Seated Overhead tricep press - at 60, don't remember what I started with

Tuesday - Back and Traps
Bent Over barbell rows - started at 120 and currently at 150
Close grip pull downs - 140 - 170
Cable Rows - 120 - 150
Dead lifts - 120 - 150
Barbell shrugs - 90 - 130

Wednesday - Biceps
Straight bar curls - 40 - 70
Dumbbell hammers - 40 - 55, these are moving way too slow
Curl bar curls - 70 - 100, I can't believe I can curl 100. wow!
Concentration curls - 45, I just started doing these last week and I was sore the next day.

Thursday - Chest
Incline Bench - 90 - 120, this is one I'm ashamed to admit I missed twice and now I'm paying for it.
Barbelll Bench press - 110 - 140
Decline Bench press - 110 - 140

Fridays - Legs, I've missed this day so much that I'd have to start over. Just Pathetic.
Squats - week 1 - 115, wk 2 - 120
45 Degree Leg Press - 160 - 180
Seated Calf raises - 135 - 165, I know I can do more though.

There's several other exercises I've yet to try but I feel these were necessary to start out with for somebody who's never been to a gym before. Looks like I'm lifting about 10 pounds more every week. My forms are not the best though, especially on the bench. I asked a friend if that would improve over time or if I'd have trouble forever since I'm max-overloading all the time. He said it should improve as your muscles get stronger. If anybody else is also starting out my advice to you is to never miss a workout day. If you're serious about making weekly progress you'll feel terrible for having missed that day or that week, which feels even worse.

Try doing preacher curls instead of the plain EZ curl bar ones, you definitely won't find yourself lifting as much.

Did my second powerlifting meet last week. Did 507-242-485 for the squat-bench-deadlift. Gotta bring that bench up.

Yeah, I've yet to incorporate preacher curls mostly because I was trying to stay away from isolation exercises and stick with compounds first. But I'll definitely try them out. Last week I included concentration curls and felt great so I'm thinking of adding others like kickbacks. Others I'm looking into are smith hack squats if the squat rack is being used but I read somewhere that they were not the same. What do you think King? Do you use the hack squat smith machine?

Not sure which king you're talking to, but I sure don't.

I generally swim 5-7 times a week. I'm going to be swimming ten times a week over winter vacation. Can't wait to be ripped.

Any particular reason why you don't do them?

Damn King, 507? That's crazy. This guy does both but then again I don't think he competes.

squat 485 x 1...I can't believe you do 507 KingH, that's crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frp4k6bZ ... ature=plcp

hacks 405 x 15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UukL428w ... MGz048_T9U

Just came back from my leg workout. After missing 3 squat workouts I was actually able to bang out 140 x 10 squats so I'm not as rusty as I thought I was.

I don't do them because I don't have access to any machines (I lift in my basement) and because I never felt the need to add them. Regular ol' squats work fine for me.

phew - quite some training plan, Nekuomanteia... Cool that it works that good for you. When I "really" started with physical exercises I also trained about 5 times a week but never got good results both in strength and size/mass.

For me both strength and size increased quite drastically when I went down to just training 2-3 times a week with enough rest. Seems like I am quite "affected" by regenerating breaks of one or two days. However my sets include more exercises as I do full body exercises and not like you seperated into groups for every day. I guess each body reacts different to different methods of training.

But I def. have to try this Max-OT stuff (wanted to some time ago but just forgot about it and continued training with my usual repititions and weights).

Go for it Grauer. I too used to have lower back pain which is another reason why I started exercising. A friend mentioned it could be due to long periods of inactivity but now it's all gone.

Here's the Max-OT article in PDF format in case you didn't have it.
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/downloads/Max-OT.zip

Somewhere in the middle the author suggests trying a couple of different routines that might suit your particular schedule. One is:

Monday - Back, Biceps, and Forearms
Wednesday - Chest, Shoulder, and Triceps
Friday - Legs, Calves, and Abs


And the other is a 3 Days On - 1 Day Rotating Routine. "This routine follows a little different pattern. It's a routine that changes each week on a rotating basis. You use the same Max-OT training routine as outlined in the Monday - Wednesday - Friday schedule, except you train three days in a row and take an off day. Start the routine over again the day after your off day. You take the weekends off to rest. No matter what days the routine falls on you always take a day off after the Leg, Calves and Abs day. Even if that routine falls on a Monday you still take Tuesday off even after not training on Saturday and Sunday."

It works like this:

Monday
Back, Biceps, and Forearms

Tuesday
Chest, Shoulders, and Triceps

Wednesday
Legs, Calves, and Abs

Thursday
Off Day

Friday
Back, Biceps, and Forearms

Saturday and Sunday
Off Days

ON Monday you'd continue with Chest, Shoulders, and Triceps and so on.

Im a month into a 5x5 compound lifts routine and My strength has already dramatically increased from before I started. Until recently my workouts were endurance focused, alot of swimming, running, bodyweight exercises and ruckmarches but Im really digging this change.

Tried that the last couple of times at the gym but this seems not to be the kind of training for me. Im too, started working out due to fiesty pain in my back etc. (see some posts of mine over the last months in this thread for a more detailled version) and the training plan I go through is exactly centered around my problems. This quite heavy weight increasement for the "Max-program" is just too much for my spine. I had the physiotherapists beside me while trying out to check if I took in the correct stances/positions (which I did) but the effort was just a bit too much. I managed to lift the weights 5-6 times but each time after the training my spine "reacted" with some kind of pain for 1 day thereafter. So, I think I'll stick to my normal program and "just" continue getting healthier in that way before maybe trying the max-program in a few months again. Seems like I have to bild up more core strength etc. for a longer period.
After all getting painfree was and is the foremost thing I started working out - building up muscle mass etc. def. stays behind that.

Sorry to hear that. At least you gave it a shot.

no problem It's not like the pain I had which made me start training but it just didn't feel like it would do any good regarding my spine. E.g. while doing (for me) really heavy barbell stuff I felt a very hard pressure in my upper back due to the strong effort while doing the curls. Told my accompanying physiotherapist and he told me that my stance and position were def. right (so the pressure didn't cam from wrong ways of exercising).
But it's not that bad - as I said: the main reason is staying painfree. Everything else like building up size is just for pleasing my ego and this has to stay in second line (for now)

I'm looking for a killer abs exercises. Right now I'm doing 4 different crunch variations (180 total crunches) and The Bird (hold for a minute) 3-4 times a week. I've been doing it for a few weeks, but I'm thinking that I should throw in a more functionality based exercise? I feel that body weight crunches can only do so much.

Also this thread has been dead to long. I want to hear what ya'll fitness guys are up to. Also I did the same compound weight lifting workout in the Spring that WitchCraft did with phenomenal results as well. In 4 months I lost 30lbs (was and am still overweight), but gained a ton of strength and muscle (the two don't always go hand in hand). I never found out what my one rep max's were but here are my end weights and reps for the big three. Squat - 255x25, Bench - 160x25, Deadlift - 315x5. My bench and general upper body needs work, but I never used to work them out much before this workout. So they were definitely playing catch up to my lower body.

I only started weight training about 3 months ago. Before that I only did cardio, body weight exercises, circuits, etc. Current routine is...

Chest and triceps
Back and biceps/forearms
Shoulders and core
Repeat

Used to do legs with shoulders, but I've been having some knee troubles lately so I've cut down on heavy weight leg use. Cardio is when I feel like it or when I have a decent patrol on for work!

Most people shouldn't be doing any crunches, because the upper abs tend to be hypertoned due to poor posture to begin with. The vast majority of people should be focusing on their deep core muscles (TVA, multifidi, pelvic floor, etc), lower abdominals and internal/external obliques (whichever is weaker in the pair). Training the core is a balancing game; it's all about focusing on what's weak and swallowing the ego and not training what's already strong, and most people have trained their upper abs (that'd be the crunches) wildly out of proportion with the other muscles that make up the core, and should actually be looking to decondition them. That said, it's really difficult to explain how to do that without showing someone first hand, and it takes most people a couple months of dedicated work, starting from baby steps and working up from there, so I'm realizing my post isn't that much help. But if it leads to more questions, that's a good thing.

Right now I'm training four times a week; going to switch up my exercises soon. I'm recovering from an injury, so it's pretty basic stuff right now and it probably wouldn't be appropriate to most people here, but I'll post it anyway, because it's what I'm doing. It's only one progression out of body weight exercises:

Day 1

Warmup on bike
Stretch
Pushups on gymnastics rings - 3 sets to near-failure
Goblet squats with a kettlebell - 3 sets of 12-15
Pushups on an upside-down kettlebell - 3 sets of being in control
Wall sits - 2 sets of progressively more time every workout
Swiss-ball bent-knee leg raises - 3 sets of 10

Day 2

Warmup on row machine
Stretch
Chinups - 3 sets of pronated, supinated, and neutral grip in that order, always leaving one left in the tank
TRX rows with feet on Swiss-ball - 3 sets of 8-10
Full ROM dumbbell lateral raise - 3 sets of 15
Seated wood chops at cable machine - 2 sets of 15 per side
Side bends on a back extension machine - 2 sets of 12 per side
Isometric Deadlift - 2 sets of 1 min, holding a heavy weight with one hand

The other thing I do is eat well. I maintain good muscle definition year-round, and I swear you can have that with barely any weight training if you're diet is on point. My general style of eating is:

- Low-sugar (though I'm down with lots of fruits, depending on the season)
- Low on grains (though I have sprouted-grain bread with breakfast from time to time)
- Only thing I drink is water
- Pastured meat pretty much every day (this week it's all deer, sometimes it's beef, pork, elk, etc.)
- Salad every day, with lots of veggies, nuts, and sometimes a can of wild salmon
- Local organic veggies with nearly every meal

I recently moved from a city to a rural town and there isn’t a gym within 30 miles of my house. I switched up my usual gym routine and reverted to a plan without any equipment. While I do have some hand weights, I’m not interested in purchasing anything big right now. This change has surprisingly worked out really well.

In regards to abs/core specifically, what I have found to be most effective is mountain climbers, planks, and wallsits…. nothing special there. See what reps, order, and holds works for you and it’s as easy as that.

Since I moved here, the only thing I do is jog around the house a few times (pretty steep hill in the back and go around 5-10 times depending) or run on a trail that goes around the property (one mile + over/under some trees that recently fell). After that I do my core reps and that’s it. Obviously I plan on adding some other stuff in and mixing it up but I needed to get back into a routine desperately. I have some before/after pics that span over the last month but I’ll spare the horror.

I've been out of the game for quite a while and lost a bunch of muscle mass and strength (almost incline benched 315lbs last time I was at the gym) so I'm wondering if anyone else has been in this situation before, and if you have any tips for those who are getting back into it?

Abs = planks, and pilates.

You wanna get that easy four pack? 3-5 miles of running, coupled with abwork every other day, especially if it's planks or pialtes stretches, give yourself a month, and you'll kick ass. LIKE I DO! WHITE BRUCE LEE.

Well with the variations I do hit more then just the upper abs, however you bring up excellent points. I want a more sport based movement rather then a static one. For one I don't think crunches are challenging me enough and two (like you said) I want a more balanced and functional core. From my last power lifting routine I learned that baby steps and a gradual progression are important or more specifically necessary. Most of my fat is in my stomach (surprise, surprise), so on top of strengthening I need to restart some kind of high intensity cardio routine. I sprained my MCL this summer, so I had to stop for a while. It still isn't perfect, but I'm sure I'll be more or less fine there. I'll have to be in order to be another white Bruce Lee. hahaha

Oh, I had to do wallsits as a part of my MCL recovery this past summer. I should have thought of that. And mountain climbers are exactly what I was thinking of. Since planks and wallsits are all time based, mountain climbers probably should be to then? I'm also thinking to throw in sets of Russian twists, for that full range of motion in the obliques.

In my opinion, mountain climbers can be either time or # depending on what works best for you... I think time is best though because you push yourself to go as quickly as possible in the set time. When I started mountain climbers, I watched a lot of youtube videos because my back was hurting. Apparently it's very easy to not have the correct form (butt too low/too high). Once I adjusted form, I didn't have any problems. I like the Russian twists too. Good luck.

Yeah you need to do weighted ab exercises to get a 6 pack. I like to do incline sit ups with a 15lb medicine ball and i twist at the top. Reverse decline sit ups also really kill and I use the machine at my gym sometimes. I only do abs twice a week and my pacs pretty ridiculous not to sound like a douche lol.

You need to have low bodyfat to have a 6 pack showing, exercise has little to do with it...

You can have low body fat and not have a six pack...

Now a far, far cry from the fat fuck I used to be; I have used my ideal slav-nord hybrid genetics to turn this bodeh into a patchwork of hairy masculinity and bulging muscles.

Whereas I used to crush the scales as a massive 320 pound sack of shit-laden crisco, I am now a 235 pound bronzed god - keep in mind I'm 6'1"

I think he meant that a six pack is worthless if its covered in a slab of fat.


And believe me, I know first hand. Probably have more of a 4 pack, but its very evident that there's a decent form there. I've never managed to lose enough weight for it to be prominent and looking good. I'm 245 right now and I carry my weight well being nearly 6'5, but there's still plenty of belly, too much for any real abs to shine. Anyway, working on changing that. Lost around 10 pounds but its taken a good 1-2 months....I try to work out 4-5 times a week and do at least 20 minutes of cardio each day along with a fairly strong upper body work out, legs here and there, and ab stuff as well such as the already mentioned planks and the like.

As far as I'm concerned my upper body is in great shape, I'm pretty swole, but the stomach is still a nagging problem. No huge gut or anything but a solid belly in place obscuring whatever ab muscles I might have, with only the outline of them being visible. Anybody got any tips towards weight loss? I've been far from perfect(weekend drinking, the occasional terrible meal) but I do seem to be headed in the right direction...albeit slowly. Definite change in my waist line but of course, its a tiny sliver of the pie that is the overall body fat. Been eating a lot of boiled eggs, spinach, and other veggies, so I think that's been a good trend but I'd really like to get into next level mode....shit always seems impossible to reach though. Had some swings in weight over my life and have almost always been in some kind of athletic shape, but I've never attained anything like that skinny, hard ab look.

Do you have any knee problems? Only asking because you are so tall. My brother is tall and has issues running because he says it bothers his knees. If you can deal with jogging/running, give it a try. It has definitely helped me jump-start getting into better shape. I loath running but I needed to do something. I lost 30lbs in a month (last checked on the 11th) from doing the exercises I previously mentioned in this thread and running a little bit. The other option is swimming. I don't have a pool (yet!) but it's my favorite exercise. I would swim over running any day. Obviously not a doctor or personal training, but I find the simpler things work better. I was in shape when I used to go to the gym, but I see better results doing things from home without machines.

Thats stupid its still good to have a strong core.

You know what I mean, aesthetically speaking.

Anyway, Essex, give me more credit than that man! I've ran a few times in my life I do at least 20 minutes of cardio when I work out which circles around the treadmill, bike, and this "Cross ramp" machine I've just picked up recently that is giving my legs one hell of a work out. Been pretty sore below the belt the last couple of days. I'm in good shape, I just want to be thinner, and only once in my life has dropping weight come very easy for me and that was because I was having 2 a day football practices and coming home and not eating any dinner, so yeah, extremely unhealthy. This was in high school, mind you. haha

Imma tiny dude. 5'11 and 155. But, I'm up to curling 25s ad infinitum, and doing 8s of 35's, so I'm not exactly scrawny, just certainly not ripped. I used to weigh 200 and that was a little less than a year ago, so I steadily dropped weight and put on more muscle with no real help other than eating right. I'm more of a cardio dude, and by the sounds of it, Torment, you just need to change ya diet up and it'll melt off.

Breakfast - oatmeal (not the instant stuff, too much sugar, go for the "1 Minute Oats" or the old-fashioned
Lunch - Tuna, tuna tuna tuna tuna tuna - I've come up with thousands of tuna variants - get creative!
Dinner - whatever (if you don't cook for yourself) but keep it lean, and eat tons of veggies. Veggies are good, veggies are great.

Snacks - protein shakes and fruits.

No supplements with crazy ingredients, just good old fashion eating right.

Try doing some intermittent fasting. Personally I never found it hard to do, and I lost a fair amount of weight with it.



For some time I was doing a routine of punch/kick training on a punching bag and some bodyweight exercises(chin-ups/pull-ups, push-ups with feet elevated, bench dips, squats and core exercises such as planks and bycicle crunches), just to not rot away since I was being sedentary for months. I'm kind of a skinny motherfucker and bodyweight exercises never really helped me to build signifcant muscle mass, but I was getting some good improvements on strength and definition given my limited resources...until I stopped, due to some personal shit. But now that I have the means I've been meaning to go a gym and hit the weights.

And by the way, does anyone here knows some good stretching routines?

To the first question: consistency. I left the the second sentence there, because it's the problem (a lack of consistency). If you wanna drop weight, you can't drink on the weekend. It sounds harsh, but that's how it is. It's one or the other. I think a reward meal once a week is all good (in fact, I think a reward meal is better than not having one, because it keeps you sane), but drinking has got to go. Consistency is everything for someone who's serious about losing fat. Pick something and stick to it for a few months. There's no other sure-fire way. Once you get where you want to be, you can start drinking and see how much it affects you.

That said, nutrition is by far the most important aspect of losing weight, followed distantly by weight training. Cardio isn't very important for most people, though if one hates weight training and sports, it's gonna have to do.

For nutrition, if you want to really drop that shit, this is hardcore, but it works for EVERYONE:

- Generally drink only water. Exceptions can be coffee and tea, but in moderation, and without milk/sugar, etc. (This is huge - it takes away so many empty calories)
- Eat "above ground" veggies with meals 3x/day (above ground meaning no potatoes, sweet potatoes)
- No grains (no oats, no wheat, no rice, no quinoa, no amaranth, no buckwheat, no rye). If you really miss grains, try to only have them around workouts.
- No soy (fuck soy)
- Eat eggs, meat, poultry, and fish for protein and fat sources. (Ideally grass-fed/free-range... It makes a big difference, but can get expensive).
- Bolster meals with fat to keep calories high enough and prevent too much hunger (nuts, nut butters, oils (olive, coconut), avocado, coconut, pastured butter, fat from the aforementioned meat if it's pastured)
- Supplement with whey protein if meat is too expensive to eat all the time (it's inferior, but better than nothing)

Sample day would be something like breakfast (4 eggs with broccoli cooked in coconut oil), lunch (ground meat with zucchini, tomato, onion, and spices), snack around workout (shake with water, whey protein, frozen blueberries, half an avocado), dinner (salad made of lettuce, onion, tomato, cucumber, can of salmon, olive oil, crushed walnuts, vinegar). If you need more food than this, normally cooking that ground meat dish will make for two hearty meals, so you could eat both in one day.

Anyway, just some ideas. I'd rarely eat the same thing every day, but it works for people who prefer that kind of structure. You can get lots of variety by switching up spices and veggies; it completely changes the flavor of whatever you're eating. I actually eat like that almost all the time and I love it. I do eat carrots and a bit more fruit, and will occasionally have grains, but I'm maintaining weight as opposed to leaning out. Once you get where you want to be, you can play around a lot.

And just to add, that would be the "optimal" way. By all means, there are many other approaches that work that aren't that hardcore. I don't think anything would work quite as fast and deliver such shocking results though.

This is a good general article on fat loss: http://www.precisionnutrition.com/all-about-fat-loss

I feel these guys stress the lean meats a bit too much though, but different things work for different people, of course.

Awesome posts, thanks guys, especially Swayze. Lot of good information there and yeah, the not drinking thing has been a struggle. I aspire to it all the time but seem unable to escape its grasps for an entire weekend due to social gatherings and shit. I know establishing the proper habits and therefore, consistency, will result in much greater improvement, I've just simply lacked the complete self-control I need to totally cut out the drinking. Food wise, I've done some good things, but due to lack of $, I've had to make some sacrifices, naturally. But to come full circle, I'd have more money if I didn't blow it on booze on the weekends.

Anyway, I suppose its a work in progress nonetheless. I've still made some progress - working out habits have been pretty good and so has my dieting overall. Its just a matter of facing the nemesis that is my drinking habit.