I feel that comic books should be discussed more around here, so I'm remaking the former best thread on the forum, this one! Feel free to discuss anything related to comic books! For a bonus, feel free to include webcomics as well, provided they are narrative based and not gag strips. Graphic novels are just long comic books, so those are fair game as well.

NO MANGA

To start, here's my thoughts on the things I've most recently read:

Teen Titans Year One: I read one trade's worth and stopped. Seemed promising, starting with a gang of dorky kids with powers and a Teen Titans cartoon-esque vibe, but in short order they traded in that giddy cartoonishness for generic can-do-ster team building and generic self-important teen romance but without the fully rounded humanity a good teen romance would have (Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane).

Bad World: Vignettes about conspiracy theories and human perversions by Warren Ellis. The art is the worst style imaginable; the unappealing and grotesque style of Preacher in a hideous grey-scale. None of this stuff is really all that shocking and it's all presented with an air of ethereal narrative smugness. F-

Ratfist: Started as a mediocre superhero parody and halfway through turns into another conservative (I later found out christian) 90's culture warrior rant against PC fascism. Fifteen years ago this would have been merely obnoxious, nowadays it's just plain tacky. Worse than all that is the wisecracking sidekick character, a disembodied rat tail, who makes ultra witty references to being a disembodied rat tail. F-

Marvel Zombies 3: An ok showing for some semi-obscure characters, this is the point where the exact history of earth Z gets a bit convoluted, but not so much as when they invade marvel apesverse... To be honest, I can't tell if this is better or worse than the average fare for Marvel/DC anymore. The stories are so convoluted, so deep in endless background characters who all strive for an "awesome" moment, the art is so professionally acceptable yet artistically hollow that it all runs together. Not a worthy successor to the excellent Marvel Zombies 1 and 2 (and later 5 which artfully disregarded 3 and 4 and brought the zombie saga to an acceptable if slightly groan inducing end [being necessitated by the nature and tenacity of the virus having put the writers into a bit of a corner]).

Marvel Zombies 4: I find the struggles with humanity with the various "monster" heroes exceptionally underwhelming, particularly when they've all adopted the smug austerity that defines every character with superpowers written since the turn of the millennium. The writers definitely don't have their hearts into this kind of stuff. Man-Thing is good as usual, but really doesn't fit into the wider marvelverse, his character is simply too geared towards contemplative tales and unsuited for high flying action with obnoxious super-prima-donnas. The Hood is an enjoyable recent character as well but is also unsuited for things involving grand cosmic action. His best stories are about how a regular hood can outwit superheroes (and villains) by applying criminal street smarts to super-situations (with a little supernatural push). The rest of the d-z listers made their showing and little more. His other purpose is, of course, like everything else Marvel does these days, to bring out more d-z listers for the endless cannon parade... What made Marvel Zombies 1 and 2, like Ruins, great is that they show how delicately balanced superhero worlds are, and how fucked up they can get if things get just a bit fucked up.

Robot Comics: Better than average dada comic with very interesting character designs. I always enjoy that 80's-90's black and white professional underground comic look, so it's treat just seeing all the varied and abstracted characters dancing about. No story to speak of and I didn't find the nonsense narrative or oblique humor terribly engaging. A feast for the eyes, if not the brain.

Fantastic Four 1234: Very similar to the better stories from Ultimate Fantastic Four, indicating that the MU writers have learned well the lesson that super science should be super in itself. I find it interesting that they are also catching up with the UFF having overcome their grudge match with Doom and are attempting to evolve their antagonistic relationship after decades of continuity. The art is nice and stylized, but never grabbed me, better than average to be sure. The dialogue doesn't come off as genuinely human, but at this point it seems like super hero writers are picking up on the idea that they might as well emphasize how disjointedly self aggrandizing and self loathing the superpersona would be in the ruthless status quo of mainstream comics continuities and since it's so rare for them to be able to write like normal human beings anyway.

The future (maybe): Habibi, Supergirl Cosmic Adventures In The Eighth Grade, The Winter Men.

Well, as mentioned in your previous thread I'm a huge comic book fan, haven't found much new stuff that I like though, but of course being in Asia it's hard to keep track of things. Just recently reread Jeff Smith's Bone and am currently rereading Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men run; that guy really made the character's have distinct personalities and rightfully made the X-Men as popular as they are today.

Also got the reprinted Twisted Mego Theater from Toy Fare magazine (Twisted Toyfare) - if you haven't read those I highly recommend reading them, they're hilarious.

I really like some of Warren Ellis's stuff, but he can get very smug about the stuff he writes and believes in. Desolation Jones is magnificent, but some of the The Authority stuff was rather overwrought as was Planetary. And while there were some really good Global Frequency stories, some were again rather overwrought and some just tried to be trendy real bad and seem really dated just a year or two later. The same with FreakAngels with its post-apocalyptic, steampunk goths.

As for Marvel Zombies... Well, I thought they were pretty bad from the very beginning. Just trying to cash in on the zombie-craze and the storylines were just dumb.

On the subject of Warren Ellis:

I love Ellis. Some of his stuff can be downright brilliant (Transmetropolitan being the pinnacle of the comics medium, in my opinion), his humor hits my funny bone dead-on, but I agree - some of his shit is weak. City of Silence was a cut-rate attempt at milking the themes are style of Transmetropolitan. Planetary was kinda boring. He did a good job on Thor with the 'World Engine' arc, but his work on other major heroes - Iron Man, X-Men, has not been so stellar. Desolation Jones, however, was fucking classic. I'd really like to see Ellis write for Batman.

Speaking of Batman, I have mixed feelings on the latest DCU reboot. The Snyder/Capullo Batman reboot is decent enough I guess, but I'm inclined to give the honor of best new Batman series to Batman & Robin. I'm not a huge Damian Wayne fan, but I don't think Bruce is either and that dynamic makes for a very interesting read. The new JLA reboot is fucking horrible, however. There is some very pretty Jim Lee art but Geoff Johns is such a glossy, depthless writer that it's just pathetic and boring. Should have had Grant Morrison work on the JLA series instead of Action Comics, which I have not picked up.

If anyone gets the chance, pickup a hardcover called 'Blacksad'. Not sure who the writer and artist are right now - too lazy to look it up or go upstairs and look at my copy, but it's an incredible piece of art. Old school, engaging noir tales except with animals (a black panther is a private eye, his lawyer is a fox, etc.), and some incredible art by a former Disney animator.

I do not read many comics, but I like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Goomis-Unspeakabl ... 3937826092
The humour is quite unique and everyone who has a certain fascination for Lovecraft might even appreciate this.

Yeah, Ellis is super hit-or-miss for me too. I haven't read much of his stuff yet though. Transmet is great and I enjoyed Ocean too. Orbiter was poor though, and Red was unbelievably bad. I should probably try more of his important titles before coming to conclusions though.

I'm finishing up reading Moore's stint on Swamp Thing at the moment. I think it's overall really good, far better than I thought it could be. Volume six has really fizzled out for me though, the more sci-fi-like narrative style just doesn't work for me (surprisingly!). I normally like sci-fi and everything but I guess I just like the horror comic style better for this character. All this travelling through space feels very unsatisfying when compared to the series' high spots, like the American Gothic arc for instance.

I'm also kind of half-reading Zot! but it's really failing to draw me in.

J Michael Straczynski's Spider-Man work is fucking amazing. Love the art style, love the creative, in-depth storytelling - it's just awesome. He also did a Superman thing recently that I'm interested in checking out.

Any fans of Bisley here? He's done some of the most amazing comic book art (and some of the worst). I'd suggest to any fans of Conan, or fantasy in general, to pick up his run on Slaine: The Horned God, although there have been some other great artists to illustrate Slaine too, like Dermot Power and Glenn Fabry (famous for his Preacher covers). Also worth checking out is Bisley's worth on Batman/Judge Dredd: Judgment on Gotham.

Are we discussing graphic novels in here, as well?

Graphic novels are just long comic books, so yes.

I thought graphic novel was a term people use so they don't sound like they're kids? Because obviously comics are a child's medium.

Used to be a child's medium. Hardly the case anymore. They are a much darker and complex medium than the Silver and Golden age. If you frequent any comic store you'll notice hardly anyone under the age of 18 goes in there.

Yes, the term was created to distinguish the work of some more adult oriented writers from what was then the almost universal norm of writing for younglings. Graphic novels also tend to refer to works which have longer storylines (longer than an issue or a trade) and which eschew the drive to maintain the status quo of the setting you see in most ongoing series and in particular in shared superhero continuities. Being a graphic novel does not make a work not a comic book, however, and I prefer to use the universal term.

Preaching to the choir, Johnny.

This is actually false. Comics in America prior to the mid 50's, were seen as medium that could appeal to adults or kids depending on the content and much of the content was for adults. However, a certain psychologist was worried about the availability of horror comics and other comics that had high levels of violence or more adult themes to children so he convinced the US government to create something called the Comic Code Authority. Essentially, only comics that met the ludicrous criteria of the Comics Code Authority could wear it's seal, and shops would only sell comics with the seal. This is the reason that superhero comics became so massively popular in America and still are to this day. Mad Magazine was able to escape the fate of many publishers by simply renaming to Mad Magazine (I forget what it was originally).
As an interesting side note, the reason Japanese comics are so uncensored is also due to America who pushed artists/writers to be as freely expressive as they wanted so the Japanese government could safely be criticised/mocked by the Japanese.

The comic book industry thrives now mostly off of merchandising and film and television rather than the conventional publishing of the latest issue. I used to love picking up a comic off the rack at the market or convenience store from time to time and going home to read it. Now, its mostly relegated to limited edition imprints on hardcover, snazzy coffee table picture books or overpriced glossy backs that you can only get at hobby shops and actual comic book boutiques.

I stand corrected. I figured I was inaccurate in my initial posting, but I posted it anyway Thanks for the neat info, sir.

It's only something you'd know about if you did a bit of research into the history of comics in America. Given the state of American comics in the last 50 years, it's a reasonable assumption to think that they were more childish before the 80's, especially when you think of the infamously camp Batman comics.

When approximately did the term "graphic novel" come into use?

FTFY.


Why not? Not a fan of manga myself, but it's true that Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind > everything in this thread so far.


Anyway, my favourite comic series are Preacher, Transmetropolitan, and Y: The Last Man. As you all know I detest superhero stuff so if I were to ask for recommendations, it'd be along those lines, but then again, HellBlazer is a huge comic geek and already knows what to pass along to me, I'd say. Oh yeah, finished series only, too.


That sounds... intriguing? Weirdly enough it probably has two strikes against it: noir and animals. Yet the two combined sounds... I dunno, could work somehow. I'm always iffy about "noir" stuff (I find most film noirs to be obnoxious and vapid). As for anthropomorphic animals are... well, I did enjoy Pride of Baghdad and Tailchaser's Song so obviously I know it can work, but I'm always wary about that somehow.

Big, big fan of Franco-Belgian comics. Used to literally spend like 70% of my waking time reading whole volumes again and again.

There's already another thread for anime and manga, I'm not terribly interested in manga (though not against it on principle) and a lot of discussions of comics in a lot of places get overrun by discussion of manga and anime so I'd like to avert that and focus on western comics.

He seems to find a lot of comfortable cliches and gives very similar stories over and over. Secret government agencies with pernicious power, a rouge agent... the further he gets away from that the better his writing tends to be. I've also found that the better the art, the better the stories for some reason. Red, for example, has terrible art and is a terrible story, whereas Crecy looks wonderful and is wonderful. Maybe he gets inspired, or he doesn't trouble the good artists for their best work when he knows his writing isn't up to par. He seems like the kind of guy who recognizes when he's not firing on all cylinders but maintains some form of professionalism to push out material at a regular pace.


Any recommendations?

There are tons to remember. Some of my personal favorites are: Les Femmes en Blanc (Women in White), Mélusine, Les Crannibales, L'Agent 212, Bobo, Cédric, Jojo, Cupidon, Natacha, Buck Danny, Papyrus, Kogaratsu, L'Épervier, Le Rêve de Jérusalem, Le Khan, Ikar, Yoko Tsuno, JKJ Bloche, Jeannette Pointu, Le Petit Spirou, Toupet, Passe-moi l'ciel, Les Zappeurs, La Petite Lucie, Cactus Club, Soda, Charly, Kid Paddle... and of course Astérix, Tintin, Suske en Wiske (or Spike and Suzy, Willy and Wanda, Bob et Bobette)

Those are popular/mainstream ones, and the drawing style makes the humour in most of them look pretty innocent, but man I recall one episode in (I think it was) Cupidon where they (subtly) dealt with either necrophilia or zoophilia. The Franco-Belgian artists are absolute masters of word play and calembour. Other ones like Le Khan (only two issues IIRC?), Kogaratsu, Le Rêve de Jérusalem, Ikar, Soda, are much darker in tone with plenty of death and violence. Oh, and none of those that I listed have any of that superhero shit.

There was a website that had a huge archive for those and plenty of other obscure titles, but man I can't find the link anymore.

I believe it was created by Will Eisner back in the 80's, in an effort to at least try and bring comics back as medium not just limited to one demographic. You often see the phrase attached to the likes of the Watchmen.

I'm a massive, almost obsessive fan of Matt Wagner's Grendel. Anyone else into this title?

John - I thought that other thread about about anime, not manga, but I don't really check it much, so maybe you're right. Anyway, fair enough, I'll stop posting about how awesome and epic Nausicaä is.


I'm of course familiar with Tintin, Astérix and Lucky Luke, having grown up with the stuff (as well as other mainstream stuff like Gaston Lagaffe, Achilles Talon, les Schtroumpfs etc. of course), but I never heard of the large majority of those. I have to say, maybe it's just me but namedropping a huge list isn't really the best way to recommend stuff. Where to start? What are those all about? Maybe you could summarize them by category at least (humour, adventure, fantasy, ...?).

Also it is my understanding that those comics are super expensive, unfortunately. Even older stuff like Asterix classics cost like roughly $15 each...

Huge fan of Transmetropolitan, Batman, Berserk (I know, I know, no manga, but STILL!!), Preacher...has anyone read Morning Glories? I've heard it's really cool, read the first issue and thought it definitely had some potential.

Here's the thing: most of them are collaborations between well-known artists such as Cauvin, Gilson, Bercovici and many others, so many of them have something in common, including the drawing style and the writing. Having said that, for humour I would definitely look into Les Femmes en Blanc (short stories of everyday life in a hospital), Passe-moi l'ciel (short stories/parodies of the afterlife attended by St. Peter), Kid Paddle (2, 3) (kids addicted to video games), Mélusine (short stories of a witch and her friends in a castle), Le Petit Spirou (2) (pretty much a classic)

And the more "serious" stuff: Le Rêve de Jérusalem (historical fiction), Thorgal (adventure/fantasy), Kogaratsu (manga I guess?), Ikar (fantasy/sci-fi)

And plain adventurous fun: Bob et Bobette. Oh man, Lambique has to be one of my most favourite comic book characters ever. Though for some reason googling the name returns mostly porn.

As for the cost... I don't know, I used to go to the library to check them out first and I ended up buying the ones that were really great, which turned out to be quite a lot over the years.

Trying not to be a hater, but anime/manga pisses me off to no end, so I'm glad it can be left out here.

MY JAPANESE ART IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN ALL YOUR COMIC BOOKS THBBBBBBBT

I keep a small collection about. Mostly X- arcs that I like, various cosmic oriented Marvel runs, Knightquest, Death and Return of Superman, nothing too crazy.

No Milk and Cheese or Flaming Carrot or other food related materials?

I think it goes without saying that Simon Bisley was the only reason Lobo was popular back in the day.

Most overrated artist? Stephen Platt (I would say Rob Liefeld but despite his slackness at least he did more than a cover or two as his claim to fame).

They have real cartoons for those sorts of things.

What are cartoons but comics with more frames?

Which suits me much better.

I believe that both dada and anthropomorphic food can be well expressed both in comic and cartoon form. I enjoy a number of such works on both mediums.

Fuck what you think I would be reading or should be reading.

Fuck what you think.

Only DC is real....

In terms of the DC/Marvel dichotomy or in regards to all publishers?