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Human666
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Personal_hygiene
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 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I would assume that what you think should be fairly straight forward considering that you have just posted this in another thread
| Quote: | | IDF is the MOST humanitarian army this world had ever known. |
Personally I'd say that if Israel can have their nuclear weapons and does not even allow international inspectors in, then Iran has the right to ensure its energy supply (or as you might prefer: have nuclear weapons). |
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Human666
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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There is no reason to mention the former topic which I saw in pure coincidence after opening this one. I'm walking about Iran here, not the IDF.
But I don't believe Israel have any nuclear weapons, nobody knows that's for sure.
If it does however, I don't remember that they ever declared that any other nation on earth should be "erased from the map", as opposed to Iran.
Besides, if you think you can argue on Iran progressing towards nuclear weapon whether it only to "ensure it's energy supply" then you are clearly unaware of Ahmadinejad's outlook and aims. |
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Napero
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Human666 wrote: | | But I don't believe Israel have any nuclear weapons, nobody knows that's for sure. |
Surely the most humane defence force on the planet would never have any need for nuclear weapons. All the evidence that points to such travesties are fabrications of international media...
My opinions on Iran are kind of confused, to be honest. Usually, in this kind of cases, I tend to think that every nation has the government it deserves, but in Iran's case, it's obvious that the people want to have a theocracy, so I have no moral problems with their internal issues; go ahead and establish sharia if you really want. The nuclear program, on the level of principle, is not any less legal or illegal than Israel's. I've made several vodka bottle bets that someone will intentionally kill people with nuclear weapons before the end of 2020, and I'm almost certain that that someone will not be a conventional terrorist, but an established nuclear power. And that group includes Israel. So why not allow a sovereign nation the same defences a possibly hostile nation in the vicinity has?
Note that the opinion that you do not like their fundamentalist ideologies is not really a valid reason to keep them from having nukes.
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Viral
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever the intent of Iran's nuclear program is, it's all a pretense for a U.S./Israeli-led invasion of the country. The U.S. is already pulling troops out of Iraq which implies they're trying to save/replenish infantry for said future invasion. Iraq was Vietnam all over again and another lost cause. So it makes sense for them to focus on this supposed threat Iran presents. Iran is a more of a threat to the Arab nations if anything as political spokespeople from the Arab League have been complaining about the "Persian influence" in the region growing too strong...also them developing nuclear energy will greatly increase that influence. But tensions between Arabs and Persians is nothing new as it dates back to the fall of the Persian Empire at the hands of Islamic invaders. I'm more interested in seeing the Arabs' role in all this to be honest with you. I think there's more than a couple factions involved here than one would think.
EDIT: Just cleaned up my post in regards to grammatical errors and such.
Last edited by Viral on Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Viral
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Napero wrote: | | I tend to think that every nation has the government it deserves, but in Iran's case, it's obvious that the people want to have a theocracy, so I have no moral problems with their internal issues; go ahead and establish sharia if you really want. |
How so? Iran's government has been lying and oppressing its people for the last 30 years (or even a 1000 years if you count when Islam's disgusting taint seeped in permanently) causing massive confusion and seperation. Also, considering Iran's population has an overwhelming non-indigenous population that are slowly outnumbering the indigenous Persian population (yes, cultural clashes have an immense contribution to it as well), is it really that surprising that Iran is the way it is? The fiasco that was the 2009 elections clearly showed that many people in Iran do not want what you say it is they want. By your logic, I can say many European countries are getting what they deserve, right? Countries like Holland, Sweden and France are having huge immigrant problems. I know the people there don't like this, but according to you, they would deserve it since they each have a government in place that keeps allowing more and more unwanted waves of undesirables to flood their nations every year. |
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Personal_hygiene
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Human666 wrote: |
But I don't believe Israel have any nuclear weapons, nobody knows that's for sure.
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The kind of response I would expect.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/22/nuclear-arms-israel-iran-obama
| Quote: | Israel pushed the Middle East into a race for weapons of mass destruction. In 1986, Mordechai Vanunu, the nuclear whistleblower, exposed the frantic bomb-making activity going on behind the walls of the Israeli nuclear facility in Dimona. Experts on nuclear proliferation estimate that Israel is armed with hundreds of atom and hydrogen bombs. Adding to this the biological and chemical weapons that Israel produces in the Nes Ziona biological institute, a frightening picture emerges: a state that is a powder keg of atomic, biological and chemical WMD.
Today we know that Israel developed nuclear arms while deceiving the US government. President Kennedy was opposed to Israel acquiring or developing nuclear weapons because of the dangers to regional and global stability. But Israel successfully deceived the American inspectors sent to monitor the Dimona reactor. |
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oneyoudontknow
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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The whole discussion towards Iran is heavily distorted by Israelian and American media. This country is portrait as the archetype of evil and would they have a nuclear weapon, then the whole world would go up in a mushroom cloud; the irony is that some of the American generals speculated about nuking the USSR into the skies during the Cold War. Bolton, I think it was him, speculated not very along ago that Iran should be attacked with nuclear weapons as a matter of containing the danger.
On the other side we have with Pakistan a country whose society is in the process of falling apart and which has nuclear arms; not to mention way more radical and extreme Islamic elements. Yet, despite the allegations of close connections between Pakistan's ISI and the Taliban, it is still portrait as the good guy, which is supported by military aid and additional funds. There is a huge hypocrisy on the American side because they are not consequent in their approach to condemn nuclear weapons and to prevent them from falling into the hands of society's extreme elements. Also the Afghanistan policy is certainly helping to deteriorating the situation even more.
In terms of Iran, the Obama approach, to support civil society, is maybe the best one to follow and even though the last election resulted in a push back from the politics and the religious institutions of society, the contrary seems like in the future. There is an hunger for real democracy in this part of the world and the citizens realize what they can achieve once they voice their demands; there had been speculations lately about moving the capital away from Tehran. An attack and sanctions are both contra-productive as they would either support the government and harm the ordinary Iranian people respectively.
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iamntbatman
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Viral wrote: | | The U.S. is already pulling troops out of Iraq which implies they're trying to save/replenish infantry for said future invasion. |
Wait....what? What sort of nonsense is this that we can't start pulling troops out of Iraq without it being a sign of being on the brink of invasion of another country?
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hells_unicorn
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| iamntbatman wrote: | | Viral wrote: | | The U.S. is already pulling troops out of Iraq which implies they're trying to save/replenish infantry for said future invasion. |
Wait....what? What sort of nonsense is this that we can't start pulling troops out of Iraq without it being a sign of being on the brink of invasion of another country?
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I think the point he is getting at is that the official policy of America towards Iran has not changed since after the election, apart from maybe some fuzzier sounding rhetoric. Moving troops around doesn't really imply much, but moving them around while designating member of a nation's military as "terrorist organizations" kind of gives off the impression that you plan to do something to said nation to correct the issue.
I'm certain that sooner or later when America's government finds it can't lie its way out of an economic depression, the drums of war will start beating again. It is essentially how we've done business for the past 100 years, no matter how much of a peace-nick a politician/president may present himself as being while campaigning.
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Opus
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Human666 wrote: | If it does however, I don't remember that they ever declared that any other nation on earth should be "erased from the map", as opposed to Iran.
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That's not what Ahmadinejad said. |
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Avaddons_blood
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Viral wrote: | | Napero wrote: | | I tend to think that every nation has the government it deserves, but in Iran's case, it's obvious that the people want to have a theocracy, so I have no moral problems with their internal issues; go ahead and establish sharia if you really want. |
How so? |
Many people in Iran see their government as legitimate. If the vast majority saw the government as illegitimate it would not last long.
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Personal_hygiene
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Opus wrote: | | Human666 wrote: | If it does however, I don't remember that they ever declared that any other nation on earth should be "erased from the map", as opposed to Iran.
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That's not what Ahmadinejad said. |
Also Israel would never say things like this, as they are very desperate to join the club of western nations. They just take over house by house, settlement by settlement. |
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kampfplatz666
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Iran is portrayed as the purest evil just by the american and sionist mass-media in the western world, not their own population in Iran (despite having some opposition, but is a minority).
And despite the jew killed more than 3.000 palestinian people between november 2008-january 2009, most of them civilian, nobody says anything about the jews.
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Viral
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| iamntbatman wrote: | | Viral wrote: | | The U.S. is already pulling troops out of Iraq which implies they're trying to save/replenish infantry for said future invasion. |
Wait....what? What sort of nonsense is this that we can't start pulling troops out of Iraq without it being a sign of being on the brink of invasion of another country?
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Like I said, Iraq is a lost cause and a complete blunder and allowed the insurgency in the country to only gain more strength and influence (hence the comparison to Vietnam), that's why they're pulling out. Iran has also been the talk of the world for the past couple years, so an invasion is more than likely. |
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Viral
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Opus wrote: | | Human666 wrote: | If it does however, I don't remember that they ever declared that any other nation on earth should be "erased from the map", as opposed to Iran.
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That's not what Ahmadinejad said. |
As tiresome it may be to hear this, it's true. But then again, when you have translators who have mostly likely been told to purposely mistranslate what he says in order to demonize him, a person who doesn't speak Farsi will obviously take it at face value. What he actually said was that Israel has no right to exist in the first place because of the negative impact it's had in the region from day one. He never said anything about destroying or wiping Israel off the map. |
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Viral
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Avaddons_blood wrote: | | Many people in Iran see their government as legitimate. If the vast majority saw the government as illegitimate it would not last long. |
That's not always true. Fear of government reprisal has a lot of the people there scared out of their wits. Go on YouTube and find videos of the 2009 election protests and see the brutality imposed by government forces. That was also just the police holding them back, should it have gotten worse, the army would've been called in and an even bigger massacre would've taken place. Iran's Imperial Guard is a well-trained, professional army and not these rag-tag militias like the ones in Afghanistan and Iraq being called armies. |
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WitchCraft
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Viral wrote: | | iamntbatman wrote: | | Viral wrote: | | The U.S. is already pulling troops out of Iraq which implies they're trying to save/replenish infantry for said future invasion. |
Wait....what? What sort of nonsense is this that we can't start pulling troops out of Iraq without it being a sign of being on the brink of invasion of another country?
|
Like I said, Iraq is a lost cause and a complete blunder and allowed the insurgency in the country to only gain more strength and influence (hence the comparison to Vietnam), that's why they're pulling out. Iran has also been the talk of the world for the past couple years, so an invasion is more than likely. |
Most of our war effort is being diverted to Afghanistan and remodeling the military...atleast in the Army, anyways. I highly doubt another invasion is on it's way yet. Atleast not Iran. Besides, if we were to invade Iran, we probably wouldn't be pulling combat units out of Iraq as it's the perfect staging ground for a large scale invasion. And the military wont just pull out some hundred plus thousand troops only to move them back over, the logistics and cost would be ludicrous. |
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hells_unicorn
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| WitchCraft wrote: | | Viral wrote: | | iamntbatman wrote: | | Viral wrote: | | The U.S. is already pulling troops out of Iraq which implies they're trying to save/replenish infantry for said future invasion. |
Wait....what? What sort of nonsense is this that we can't start pulling troops out of Iraq without it being a sign of being on the brink of invasion of another country?
|
Like I said, Iraq is a lost cause and a complete blunder and allowed the insurgency in the country to only gain more strength and influence (hence the comparison to Vietnam), that's why they're pulling out. Iran has also been the talk of the world for the past couple years, so an invasion is more than likely. |
Most of our war effort is being diverted to Afghanistan and remodeling the military...atleast in the Army, anyways. I highly doubt another invasion is on it's way yet. Atleast not Iran. Besides, if we were to invade Iran, we probably wouldn't be pulling combat units out of Iraq as it's the perfect staging ground for a large scale invasion. And the military wont just pull out some hundred plus thousand troops only to move them back over, the logistics and cost would be ludicrous. |
Afghanistan also shares a border with Iran, and the fact that Iraq is known to be a superior staging ground for an invasion of Iran might be a good reason to stage it from the opposite border. Not saying that this necessarily will happen, but I don't think that which of the two countries America is in makes a really huge difference in whether or not an invasion occurs.
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WitchCraft
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| hells_unicorn wrote: | | WitchCraft wrote: | | Viral wrote: | | iamntbatman wrote: | | Viral wrote: | | The U.S. is already pulling troops out of Iraq which implies they're trying to save/replenish infantry for said future invasion. |
Wait....what? What sort of nonsense is this that we can't start pulling troops out of Iraq without it being a sign of being on the brink of invasion of another country?
|
Like I said, Iraq is a lost cause and a complete blunder and allowed the insurgency in the country to only gain more strength and influence (hence the comparison to Vietnam), that's why they're pulling out. Iran has also been the talk of the world for the past couple years, so an invasion is more than likely. |
Most of our war effort is being diverted to Afghanistan and remodeling the military...atleast in the Army, anyways. I highly doubt another invasion is on it's way yet. Atleast not Iran. Besides, if we were to invade Iran, we probably wouldn't be pulling combat units out of Iraq as it's the perfect staging ground for a large scale invasion. And the military wont just pull out some hundred plus thousand troops only to move them back over, the logistics and cost would be ludicrous. |
Afghanistan also shares a border with Iran, and the fact that Iraq is known to be a superior staging ground for an invasion of Iran might be a good reason to stage it from the opposite border. Not saying that this necessarily will happen, but I don't think that which of the two countries America is in makes a really huge difference in whether or not an invasion occurs. |
Yes while that may possibly be true, Afghanistan is also alot less stable and poses more of a threat to personnel and equipment, plus, the United States's fobs (foward operating bases) in Iraq are much more built up and more capable of sustaining an Army. However, the main point I was making is that the Army is focused on other more pressing issues right now than invading Iran. |
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prince_of_the_frets
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| I really do not think the Iran issue is nearly as bad as it is made out to be. I find it hard to imagine it actually bombing a country, unless severely provoked. Pakistan is a lot more pressing issue in my opinion. And it is high time the US just stopped letting Israel get away with everything. That, I believe, is the real problem. |
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Byrain
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if they are planning to invade Iran, or even when, but I wouldn't put it past them. That said, I do know that they relying more and more on drones rather then soldiers.
As you can see in this new york times article:
http://cryptome.org/0001/predator-war.htm |
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oneyoudontknow
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:50 am Post subject: |
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There is an interesting documentation on Iran coming up:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/deathintehran/
| Quote: | | At the height of the protests following Iran’s controversial presidential election this summer, a young woman named Neda Agha Soltan was shot and killed on the streets of Tehran. Her death -- filmed on a cameraphone, then uploaded to the web -- quickly became an international outrage, and Agha Soltan became the face of a powerful movement that threatened the hard-line government’s hold on power. With the help of a unique network of correspondents in and out of the country, FRONTLINE investigates the life and death of the woman whose image remains a potent symbol for those who want to keep the reform movement alive. The film also explores a number of unanswered questions in the aftermath of the greatest upheaval in Iran since the 1979 revolution: How many were arrested and killed as the security forces attempted to contain the growing protest movement? To what extent was the presidential vote manipulated? What is the future of the movement that seems to have been silenced? |
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Expedience
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Viral wrote: | | Opus wrote: | | Human666 wrote: | If it does however, I don't remember that they ever declared that any other nation on earth should be "erased from the map", as opposed to Iran.
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That's not what Ahmadinejad said. |
As tiresome it may be to hear this, it's true. But then again, when you have translators who have mostly likely been told to purposely mistranslate what he says in order to demonize him, a person who doesn't speak Farsi will obviously take it at face value. What he actually said was that Israel has no right to exist in the first place because of the negative impact it's had in the region from day one. He never said anything about destroying or wiping Israel off the map. |
I remember when this comment was first made. It was in the context of Ahmadinejad talking about the political entity of Israel. Whenever the comment is about up in the news the context is entirely removed, so it sounds like he is talking about bombing Israel off the map. We all know what the media is like, and this was perfect for their puposes. |
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KosherCarnage
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| prince_of_the_frets wrote: | | And it is high time the US just stopped letting Israel get away with everything. That, I believe, is the real problem. |
explain yourself |
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oneyoudontknow
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| KosherCarnage wrote: | | prince_of_the_frets wrote: | | And it is high time the US just stopped letting Israel get away with everything. That, I believe, is the real problem. |
explain yourself |
Open your eyes and see. You just need to look at the US resolutions on Israel and the stances of the US government on this issue to understand what he is talking about.
You cannot really justify what is happening in the Gaza-Strip without ignoring the issue of Human Rights.
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KosherCarnage
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| oneyoudontknow wrote: | | KosherCarnage wrote: | | prince_of_the_frets wrote: | | And it is high time the US just stopped letting Israel get away with everything. That, I believe, is the real problem. |
explain yourself |
Open your eyes and see. You just need to look at the US resolutions on Israel and the stances of the US government on this issue to understand what he is talking about.
You cannot really justify what is happening in the Gaza-Strip without ignoring the issue of Human Rights. |
Sadly, reality is more complicated than that. If you refer to the fact the Palestinians don't have a decent method of crossing the borders and thus their movement freedom is damaged, there isn't much that could be done.
Unless you believe the whole "violence against civilians" thing is a hoax, I believe you understand why there could be no open borders with a hostile region/autonomy/state.
In case you're talking about something else than movement freedom, be more specific. |
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oneyoudontknow
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| KosherCarnage wrote: | | oneyoudontknow wrote: | | KosherCarnage wrote: | | prince_of_the_frets wrote: | | And it is high time the US just stopped letting Israel get away with everything. That, I believe, is the real problem. |
explain yourself |
Open your eyes and see. You just need to look at the US resolutions on Israel and the stances of the US government on this issue to understand what he is talking about.
You cannot really justify what is happening in the Gaza-Strip without ignoring the issue of Human Rights. |
Sadly, reality is more complicated than that. If you refer to the fact the Palestinians don't have a decent method of crossing the borders and thus their movement freedom is damaged, there isn't much that could be done.
Unless you believe the whole "violence against civilians" thing is a hoax, I believe you understand why there could be no open borders with a hostile region/autonomy/state.
In case you're talking about something else than movement freedom, be more specific. |
No not really ... nothing except killing people without any penalty from the international community. Expanding illegal settlements. Violating the Human Rights Agenda with the lack up of people in the Gaza Strip (denying the crossing of resources etc.), ignoring International Law ( a German ship was hijacked by Israel in international waters lately), attacks in Lebanon etc.
Of course there could be no border. Why do you think all the hostility comes from? Yes, I know the Palestinians and Jew-eating monsters who would do nothing more than slaughtering all of them.
The solution is one-state and not a two-state, whether you want it or not.
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KosherCarnage
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| oneyoudontknow wrote: | | KosherCarnage wrote: | | oneyoudontknow wrote: | | KosherCarnage wrote: | | prince_of_the_frets wrote: | | And it is high time the US just stopped letting Israel get away with everything. That, I believe, is the real problem. |
explain yourself |
Open your eyes and see. You just need to look at the US resolutions on Israel and the stances of the US government on this issue to understand what he is talking about.
You cannot really justify what is happening in the Gaza-Strip without ignoring the issue of Human Rights. |
Sadly, reality is more complicated than that. If you refer to the fact the Palestinians don't have a decent method of crossing the borders and thus their movement freedom is damaged, there isn't much that could be done.
Unless you believe the whole "violence against civilians" thing is a hoax, I believe you understand why there could be no open borders with a hostile region/autonomy/state.
In case you're talking about something else than movement freedom, be more specific. |
No not really ... nothing except killing people without any penalty from the international community. Expanding illegal settlements. Violating the Human Rights Agenda with the lack up of people in the Gaza Strip (denying the crossing of resources etc.), ignoring International Law ( a German ship was hijacked by Israel in international waters lately), attacks in Lebanon etc.
Of course there could be no border. Why do you think all the hostility comes from? Yes, I know the Palestinians and Jew-eating monsters who would do nothing more than slaughtering all of them.
The solution is one-state and not a two-state, whether you want it or not. |
"Yes, I know the Palestinians and Jew-eating monsters who would do nothing more than slaughtering all of them. "
way to go filling serious argument with this kind of stuff.
"Expanding illegal settlements"
This is indeed an issue. I strongly oppose building settlements on ground which is owned by Palestinians. As for the overall borders, it's a big blurry mess. As I said, reality is more complicated that what a tv screen can show you, and I hope you can understand it. As for Jerusalem, there is no doubt it would split eventually and I support including Eastern Jerusalem in the future territories of the Palestinian state.
However, I don't accept people using the settlements as an excuse for random insurgencies and rocket launching against civilians .
As for the blockade against the Gaza strip. I'm pretty much sure you know that Hammas refuses to acknowledge Israel's existence and acts as if there is an active war between them and Israel. The blockade proceeds because they refuse to back down from it and/or agree to completely stop the hostilities. It is their choice, and they don't show any sign of doing any of these.
"..killing people without any penalty from the international community"
Every other nation would claim an act like launching missiles from a foreign sovereign as an act of war and would react. People who attack or are involved in attacks against population are not simply immune by the fact they did so from their borders and are using their population as human shields. Reality is not black and white, sorry to inform you.
The solution is to draw back from the nonsensical violent approach and start immediate negotiations. They are not keen on stopping the hostilities permanently and have not mentioned it even one time. Plus it is quite hard to negotiate with a state when you refuse to acknowledge its existence. Obviously in the long term there would be 2 states, no serious human being seriously believes there is another resolution. The sad fact is that in reality, they already have a state, but they manage it poorly. Nothing would change if they miraculously declare independence, their problems are far more complicated. |
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oneyoudontknow
Cum insantientibus furere necesse est.
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 4833
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| KosherCarnage wrote: |
As for the blockade against the Gaza strip. I'm pretty much sure you know that Hammas refuses to acknowledge Israel's existence and acts as if there is an active war between them and Israel. The blockade proceeds because they refuse to back down from it and/or agree to completely stop the hostilities. It is their choice, and they don't show any sign of doing any of these. |
and Israel refused to acknowledge Hamas as the legitimate Palestinian government ... so we have a stalemate. The position of the Hamas is radical ... and I condemn it, but this alone does not give Israel the right to block the travel of goods into the Gaza-Strip. Just because you do not like a small (tiny?) fraction of a population, does enable you to penalty the lot of them. This is something that you cannot bring in accordance with International Law.
| KosherCarnage wrote: |
Every other nation would claim an act like launching missiles from a foreign sovereign as an act of war and would react. People who attack or are involved in attacks against population are not simply immune by the fact they did so from their borders and are using their population as human shields. Reality is not black and white, sorry to inform you. |
Oh, please ... when you are attacked by a missile, then you are allowed to defend yourself, but you are not entitled to start a massacre; like it happened in the operation Molten Lead. You just need to hear the voices (confessions) of Israel soldiers on this topic in order to know that there had hardly any fighting been and that the Israel army targeted civilians instead of military ones; there were hardly any. You just need to take a look at the Goldstone report in order to get a good analysis of what had happened there. The force used by Israel was way out of proportions.
| KosherCarnage wrote: |
The solution is to draw back from the nonsensical violent approach and start immediate negotiations. They are not keen on stopping the hostilities permanently and have not mentioned it even one time. Plus it is quite hard to negotiate with a state when you refuse to acknowledge its existence. Obviously in the long term there would be 2 states, no serious human being seriously believes there is another resolution. The sad fact is that in reality, they already have a state, but they manage it poorly. Nothing would change if they miraculously declare independence, their problems are far more complicated. |
These are some of the necessary steps:
- open all borders and remove all checkpoints
- start new elections in the Palestine parts and accept any result from it
- UN forces to stabilize parts of the country
- de-militarization of the militias.
- start negotiations about a one state solution with full right for all citizens
- compensation for Palestinians (killed relatives family members, destroyed homes etc.)
- remove the wall
_________________
If you find any typing errors or ironical comments, then you can keep them.
"Mountains of concrete give the impression humans are in control."
"Talk of heaven! ye disgrace earth." |
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KosherCarnage
Metal newbie
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 85
Location: Israel
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| oneyoudontknow wrote: | | "and Israel refused to acknowledge Hamas as the legitimate Palestinian government ... so we have a stalemate. The position of the Hamas is radical ... and I condemn it, but this alone does not give Israel the right to block the travel of goods into the Gaza-Strip. Just because you do not like a small (tiny?) fraction of a population, does enable you to penalty the lot of them. This is something that you cannot bring in accordance with International Law." |
As you said, they have chosen Hammas as their leading party. Aside from the fact that this means that the majority of the population there agrees with Hammas' stance, Hammas simply refuses to deliver even something resembling a decent comment to give them a gateway out of this mess. There is no impression they intend to cease the hostilities even to ease the problems of their population. The sad part is that there is no demand by the population to sort the thing out with Israel, thus they are comfortable at their position at the moment. Hammas can put Israel under serious pressure if it simply asks to sign a treaty, stating they will end the hostilities (even temporarily) and acknowledge Israel in exchange for the end of the blockade. As for now, they seem to be content with the current "limited warfare" situation. They rule their state, and their answer was that they rather smuggle everything through tunnels from Egypt instead of opening a serious dialogue.
| oneyoudontknow wrote: | | "Oh, please ... when you are attacked by a missile, then you are allowed to defend yourself, but you are not entitled to start a massacre; like it happened in the operation Molten Lead. You just need to hear the voices (confessions) of Israel soldiers on this topic in order to know that there had hardly any fighting been and that the Israel army targeted civilians instead of military ones; there were hardly any. You just need to take a look at the Goldstone report in order to get a good analysis of what had happened there. The force used by Israel was way out of proportions. " |
Lets not fool ourselves, there is no safe war. War always results in crimes, and this one is no different. Claiming that civilians were simply massacred uncontrollably is hardly the truth. The whole "civilian targets" thing is taken to a whole new level since Hammas finds it effective to fight from civilian buildings and under civilian guise. It's a clutter, guerrilla warfare always ends with the same result.
As for the steps you suggested. It's all nice in theory, but even vague understanding of conflicts between sovereigns suggest that it's mere fantasy.
As for the one-state thing.. well, I don't want to sound like I insult you, but even suggesting that shows you really need to lay off the television as your source.
We're not talking about two kinds of people which just don't get along, the process is already inevitable. They practically have their own state at this point and are NOT subjugated to any Israeli authority or laws. Furthermore, (and more importantly) they obviously do not wish to be a part of Israel and Israel does not wish Gaza and the West Bank to become a part of it. Reality is obviously not as mild as what I'm putting to text here, there is enough hate flowing here to burn this whole wretched region. |
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Viral
Veteran
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 2883
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| KosherCarnage wrote: | | Furthermore, (and more importantly) they obviously do not wish to be a part of Israel and Israel does not wish Gaza and the West Bank to become a part of it. |
O RLY? |
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charlie91
Metal newbie
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 158
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| We shouldn't go over there and tell them how to live. If he wants his country to be a theocracy, let it be a mother fucking theocracy. Just as long as they don't force that shariah law bullshit on us westerners. |
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