Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

SuperVeji4 · Metalhead Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 732

I’m currently taking Humanities and I must say that I love the class. What really caught my attention however was the teacher, for he seemed to be intelligent, open-minded, and just overall interesting. So I decided to go to his office after class to meet the guy and to talk to him about life. I’ve discovered that the man is a humanist, a philanthropist, and a great admirer of ancient philosophers like Socrates. What really caught my attention however, were the things he said.

If I remember correctly, Socrates and his follower Plato believed that there is an absolute, Ultimate Truth to everything, a truth/explanation that all of humanity would agree on, thus creating a universal brotherhood. They believed that everyone seeks the same thing, which, if I remember correctly, was power, respect, and happiness, and that it is Wisdom and Knowledge that will bring us these things. Wisdom and Knowledge will help us discover the Ultimate Truth, and the Ultimate Truth will bring us power, respect, and happiness. There is only one Ultimate Truth, and this Ultimate Truth will satisfy all of humanity for all time. Our sense of wanting money, pleasure, material things, and also the differences that separate all of us are all just illusions and distractions, distractions that block us from seeking the Ultimate Truth. In different ways of expressing it, we all tend to believe that we are detached from one another, when the reality is that we are all very similar, and we are very much connected with everything and everyone. This Ultimate Truth has not yet been found.

Obviously I thought this was bullshit, I mean it sounds too much like a generalization. However, I thought about it some more and a weird thought came to my mind. Almost every philosopher I know of (which I'll admit, isn't many), whether they were religious, atheistic, optimistic, or pessimistic, generally say the same thing. From the ones I know, they all basically say, “Seek Knowledge and Wisdom, for they will bring you the Truth. Do not be entirely distracted (“reject” in some cases) by temptation and physical wants like money or material things, for they will interfere with your search for the Truth.” Philosophers from different parts of the globe and different time periods saying the same thing. Are all these philosophers from the past and present, people most of us consider geniuses, wrong in this idea that there is a single Ultimate Truth that will unite and satisfy all of us, thus creating a universal brotherhood?

This idea of an Ultimate Truth reminded me of something else. I’ve heard from some artists, writers, and musicians that believe that their artistic creativity and creations come from beyond the physical world, a “realm” where ideas are ultimately from. I believe it was Stephen King who said that he had a feeling that there is such a “realm”, and that artists, from all fields, have a special gift that helps them to “see” into this “realm”, and what they create is a “message” or a “teaching” from this “realm”. All that matters is your ability in acquiring these messages accurately, and conveying these messages in a clear and organized way. Is this “realm” related to the Ultimate Truth that Socrates was speaking of?

One last thing that crossed my mind. Now I know that religion is a touchy subject here, but is the concept of God another way of saying “Ultimate Truth”? The idea that there is only “one”, and that if found, it will bring respect, power, and happiness to us all, does that not sound like the concept of God? In the end, I came to understand, mostly, with what the teacher was saying, for he strongly believed that there is such a thing of an Ultimate Truth. We all generally seek the same thing, but we argue too much on who’s right and who’s wrong for we are all passionate in this quest in searching for the Ultimate Truth, and this passion blinds us from understanding and seeing the similarities between all beliefs, teachings, and practices. The different names we use, whether it be God, Allah, Ultimate Truth, Ultimate Explanation, whatever, blind us and confuse us, and this leads into conflict. But it is silly, because in the end, no matter what name you want to slap onto it, it’s all the same. It sounds silly and maybe even confusing to some, but for some reason there’s something in there that I find to be very intriguing, and that there is some truth somewhere in there. Then again, after all this thinking, perhaps I’m just overanalyzing the hell out of the whole thing

Do you people agree with this idea of an Ultimate Truth? If you do, why? If you don’t, why not? Can we ever discover on what the Ultimate Truth is? Are we all really after the same thing, we just express it differently? And if so, then is there a way to make people aware of this misunderstanding, and to make them realize that we are all after the same thing? The idea of world peace and perfect harmony just sounds silly, cliché, and just plain far fetched, but is it really impossible? And if so, then is there a way to at least form a universal sense of tolerance and understanding with one another? Not exactly agreeing, but…tolerate. At least to a certain degree? And if it truly is impossible, then is it still worth a shot in forming this kind of change or is it best to not even try?

What do you guys think?

EDIT: Took out the bits on the Ultimate Equation. It wasen't sitting well with most people, and after thinking about it I've come to agree with them.

Singularity · Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject:

A very quick note on a specific point: the "Ultimate Equation".
What you are referring to, or rather what physicists like Hawking talk about, is the so-called "Theory of Everything", a term that is truly confusing to the lay person. The objective here, is not, I repeat, NOT about finding an equation or a set of equations that can explain everything in the world. In other words even if we could determine these equations, that would not make any difference to most of the research that is being carried out in physics not to mention other areas such as chemistry, applied physics and engineering. Problems in solid state physics, material sciences, astrophysics, nano-technology, laser physics etc will be untouched by such a development.

SO, what do they mean by "theory of everything"? It refers to the unification of the basic interactions of nature namely, the electromagnetic, the weak (these two are already unified and known as electroweak), the strong interaction and gravitation (the last of this is note ven quantized). More technically, it is about unifying all these interactions into a single gauge group at certain energy scales (that are very high).

This is a very widespread misunderstanding that largely arises from incorrectly phrasing the objective sought.

mtlzr · Metal newbie Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 38

Existence is probably the only 'Ultimate Truth' there is, as far as it refers to the universe 'as we know it'. Apart from facts based on said existence, truth seems to be subjective.

I do not search for such a truth, I search for happiness (with happiness meaning a sense of sufficient comfort). I have formed an image of happiness in my mind, so I pursue it the best I can. What use is this Truth anyway, if it is only means to an end? And what if it exists, why would it create a sense of understanding? There are many teachings that advocate moral guidelines which would surely lead to that end if every person adhered to them.

This Truth is a very appealing thought, since it would give a 'shortcut' to happiness. Wealth and power are secondaries to that, since wealth and power give a certain degree of happiness in human society and are also merely tools.

Religion is different from this thought of Truth, since it gives you its Truth right away without you having to look for it.

The artistic realm you mention is called imagination, which is a product of a fertile and creative mind.

Your thoughts are valid, elaborate and interesting, but very glorifying - have you questioned them?
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Stormalv · Metalhead Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 689

I'm thinking about this a lot too. And yes, arguing about religions is misleading, it prevents you from seeing everything they have in common, and that they may have come from some divine experience.

But is there an absolute truth, and if you get to know it, how can you be so sure it is true? The only thing I consider to be 100% certain is that I exist, and that things like math and rational thoughts are right (the idea 2 plus the idea 2 is the idea 4).

I was thinking about this earlier today, some people say they have great experiences on drugs which make them spiritual, even though they were materialistic atheists before, but the skeptics will simply say they had a powerful hallucination that they're desperate to make sense of. But you know the feeling when you've woken up, got out of bed and you're making coffee, that certainty that you have awoken from the dream, this is not a false awakening, what if there is a similar experience you can have on drugs, seeing the waking life as a mere dream?

Then you have the mystery of consciousness, how does it interact with the brain? If we are One as the spiritual people say, why do we feel separate? Are we eternal, and if so, how can we fathom the concept?

Then there is the theory that reality is a collectice hallucination, and that everything exists and happens because we think it. People will say, but if you think an oven is off, you might burn yourself on it and be surprised. But on a deep subconscious level, you might know that it is actually hot!! But too deep for your conscious mind to account for.
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Rottenrectum · Metalhead Joined: 17 Nov 2008 Posts: 1649 Location: Sweden

I think these two concepts should not be mixed. The way I interpret "ultimate truth" would be answer to the question "why?". Why are we here? Why do we live? Why do the universe exist? All these question imply that there has to be some kind of meaning, a thought behind it all and therefor should not be mixed with the search for a theory of everything, or as mentioned here, an "ultimate equation". That would deal with the question "how?". How did we end up here? How did the universe come to be? How did life begin? These imply no meaning what so ever, they only require a rational explanation to be answered. Leave "why?" to religion.
Take M-theory for example, probably the top contender for this "ultimate equation". If it turned out to be correct, would it give any kind of meaning to life, the universe and existence? No it wouldn't . It would simply tell us how things work.
I believe there is no ultimate truth. The only rational explanation for me is existence is indifferent and therefor have no meaning or thought behind it, thus rendering life meaningless as well. The whole concept of meaning is created by humans. On the other hand, I would agree with Socrates on the point about wisdom and knowledge. The pursuit of ever greater wisdom and knowledge would be the closest thing to a meaning for me. I guess I would be more comfortable with the concept "ultimate wisdom" or "ultimate knowledge".
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SuperVeji4 · Metalhead Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 732

hey

Blakktaboule · Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:08 am Post subject:

What an interesting inquiry. I have wondered sometimes about the true reason we exist. I have been raised a Christian, and continue to be one, so I have my beliefs. But it is interesting to contemplate philosophy and the truth to everything. I was recently watching a TV program about string theory and stuff like that. PHilosophy is very interesting.

Danthrax_Nasty · Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject:

Ultimate truth is just a philosophical meme used to aggrandize privately held conjecture, with a purpose only to confuse people (or indoctrinate), as in the end its an entirely unanswerable question, and being so serves little to constructive purpose. The ultimate truth is, there is no ultimate truth.

Osmium · The Hateful Raven Joined: 22 Nov 2003 Posts: 4201

Acidgobblin · Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject:

Avaddons_blood · Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:28 am Post subject:

There is no god. The meaning and purpose of life is whatever you give it. We are all made of star stuff.

If you want something more complex look at the Theory of everything and the standard model. That probably isn't what you want though.
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Shovel · Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:35 am Post subject:

Prominence · Metalhead Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 461 Location: Canada

Being a skeptic, I believe this "Truth" is most likely existent but unattainable. Perhaps it is the ultimate enlightenment and resolve experienced in death, or perhaps it is the key to "The Overman" (Thus Spoke Zarathustra), and as such is somewhere deep within (which I believe everything and every form of potential is), simply incredibly difficult to tap.

My overall take on it is if the "greatest of the great minds" who were the one who conceptualized it, but still could not attain it (or if they did, kept it secret), there's little chance of one of us discovering what it is. Sure, our generation is "standing on the shoulders of giants", but we mostly lack the innovation which made these giants in the first place, and without innovation how can we hope to attain something of such high status which to our knowledge has not been found yet?

I'm sure many others like myself have had brief moments of clarity when in some obscure, vague way, multiple seemingly disconnected segments of reality come together in some sort of unison never before thought of, but yet they fit together so perfectly. It's typical of, but not exclusive to psychoactives. At least in my experience. This would lead me to indicate there is potential for some sort of Ultimate Truth existing, however I still can't really see how it would be practically attained. And if it can't exist in our realm, within the presence of some human mind, then it must not exist. But if it does, it must somehow be able to be tapped.

However... This is also reminiscent of some sort of Ultimate Answer, a concept I also am very skeptical and disbelieving of. If the meaning to our existences was discovered, would it not lose its meaning? Philosophy and all forms of imagination would be lost. Humans are a creature that require some mystery, some sort of shaded area so that we can fill in the potential blanks with our imaginations. How else would there be hundreds of hollywood films all based around the foundation of some different brand of apocalypse? Despite the Ultimate Truth or Answer's seemingly glowing, positive image, I believe it would ultimately be harmful to our existences, and barely if at all beneficiary. But this could be completely false, perhaps it will usher in an entirely new era of Utopia.

I believe the idea of an Ultimate Answer to be some sort of paradox, and being so similar to this Ultimate Truth, I believe the same may be true for that. Some obscure paradox beyond humans' possible comprehension.

Also, great call with Humanities. I'm applying for Humanities for next September's term.

Vordreller · Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject:

I'm getting the impression that the title of this thread might just as well be "Why are we here?"

My answer: I don't care.

krampus · Metalhead Joined: 07 Jul 2009 Posts: 400 Location: Japan

Truth for every individual is something different, and varies wildly depending on one's priorities, beliefs, upbringing, where he/she lives, etc. There is no greater misery than chasing an elusive Truth and constantly reminding yourself that you haven't found it yet, and I sincerely believe that most people can be happier knowing that the meaning they create for themselves in life from the mundane and the unremarkable is sufficient to feel like life is worth living.

Perhaps it's a really cynical and lazy viewpoint to take, but I'd much rather accept that there is no inherent meaning or special truth to being a living person than agonize over searching for that meaning or truth for the duration of a lifetime. While a certain amount of soul-searching and curiosity is necessary to keep us from becoming entirely complacent lumps uninterested in higher thought, the hedonist in me wants to spout out cliches like "There is no meaning in life except for what we assign it" and just enjoy myself without worry that I've failed to achieve some possibly unattainable goal.

Singularity · Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject:

I honestly see no reason why this topic is even allowed to continue. Unless you define what is meant by ultimate truth it does not even make any sense to discuss it. The only reasonable definition of it would be the sum total of all true propositions one can make regarding the universe. Now, owing to epistemological hurdles it is nearly impossible to find absolute truth about any particular phenomena or event in the world (as opposed to deductions from an axiomatic system) let alone everything in it. But even if I let this important fact pass through, the set of all true propositions is ill-defined in the dominant framework of logical system used today.*

That really is the end of discussion.

*Zermelo Fraenkel with the Axiom of Choice (ZFC) -this discussion came up earlier when Scorpio pointed to this fact.

matrixmetal · Metal newbie Joined: 08 Aug 2009 Posts: 107

matrixmetal · Metal newbie Joined: 08 Aug 2009 Posts: 107

For what it matters. If it matters to you. You could check out the underground, renegade philosophical movements happening on youtube & stickam.

They are participating in an open lyceum of virtual reality, a digital campfire of existentialism, where the doom & gloomers and the phantasmagoricals all get along, to a degree, dissecting subjective deconstructions of reality with a healthy dose of skepticism. They are having an extended virtual conversation about these same basic philosophical questions as the OP has suggested. So the matrix equation I am attempting to show you is : If you seek a truth you will find. Period. Emphasis on the period. If you want to go very deep, deep, deep you have to dig deep, deep, deeper.
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206 · Metalhead Joined: 19 Jul 2008 Posts: 1061

I believe there is not a truth that pertains to the dominate species on the third planet orbiting the distant sun named Sol. Further, I believe all creatures on Earth learn how to feel before they learn how to think. As innately emotional beings, we "feel" there is no truth in relation to us, but since we as yet cannot properly articulate our emotions, our words come out muddled in images like God, Being and Emptiness.

To put that another way: Since there is no universal truth pertaining directly to man, man made his own truth pertaining to the universe.

SuperVeji4 · Metalhead Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 732

I find it interesting when people believe that life, the universe, and everything in it, is simply pointless. Everything is just. I understand fully why they would say that, and depending the time and mood I'm in, I would probably agree. However, we humans have this extreme curiosity, this extreme need in exploring, spreading, understanding, and discovering everything thats around us. And we have the ability in creating outrageous things like a space shuttle that takes us beyond the skies, which I think is proof of our extreme need and desire in finding answers. And all this for what? Nothing? We have this extreme need to explore and the abilties in making the exploration possible, yet these things are usless because the universe is, afterall, pointless? The answer could be "yes," but that would be extremely dissapointing, and there many times in which I feel that that answer is just a fucking cop out. This great curiosity and abilitiy in exploring, and all we can come up with is that life and the universe is pointless, and they're nothing but a giant, massive, galactic, cosmic coincidence? Hard to believe. But then again, that may in fact be the actual answer and truth...

Fascinating shit.

phoenix6669 · Mallcore Kid Joined: 30 Oct 2009 Posts: 12