(I was reading this thread until this post on page two)

So they're unable to reach the same level of the bands they've been trying to emulate, but what's exactly downright catastrophic about that? And for whom?

For other bands (let's call them non-retro bands instead of the worn out and unprecise terms "original" and "progressive" *shudders*)? Do the bad retro bands take away the place for a good non-retro bands on a label? No way. That's equally ridiculous like the "oh my god, immigrants fill our jobs and now I can't work as a cleaner anymore".

Seriously, it's not like retro bands would do any harm to anybody or anything, on the contrary, they might boost the sales of and interest in our beloved 80s thrashers (only when we're talking 'bout Evile, Bonded By Blood and stuff, of course). Although I, for one, don't have the slighest interest in all of that.

Well wight ghoul, while you yourself might not like hearing young, formative-stage thrash bands opening at shows, there are many that most definitely do. The vast majority of bands in any genre, especially in metal today, aren't innovating any more than even the most deliberately retro retro-thrash band. Has death metal done anything really earthshaking new since, say, 10 years ago? Black metal does a little better, with some interesting albums coming out, but for every say Work which Transforms God album that has its own kind of feel, there's still a million bands that just wish they were darkthrone or something.

And I personally believe that the retro thrash movement is reactionary, it is indicative that many actively oppose the newer directions metal is going in, and wanting a return to form to the traditional ideas and feelings of heavy metal.
Step one of that is just playing those tradional ideas and feelings, as has now been done. Step two is moving onward from there, which may or may not be possible. But it is certainly worth trying.

Retro bands seem to be for people that love a style so much that they're fully content with it aren't interested in looking for anything better.

It's stupid but I don't care, I find very little interest in retro bands. I like being 'wowed' by a sound, being overwhelmed by something. I remember first listening to Black Sabbath and how much of an experience it was, and that's what I look for in new music.

People take inspiration the wrong way these days. Someone that loves Slayer's 'Reign in Blood' for instance, should try to create a sound that's good and refreshing in it's own way just aswell as Slayer did, like "wow, Slayer was groundbreaking, I wonder if we could do that" - but instead they seem intent on just recreating the album.

Wow. That anyone would think that's what's happening is mindblowing to me.

I don't mind the retro thing at all, even if I have had to hear 1000 shitty ripoff bands, this movement has given us Drowned and Dead Congregation.
And that is enough for me...

Evile sounds exactly like Slayer, even going as far as reusing old riffs (the title track to Enter the Grave being a pretty good example). This is a fairly new phenomenom, and it's a good thing that Slayer and Venom didn't just emulate old band or everything would still sound like Deep Purple.

Evile sound almost nothing like Slayer except in that they play thrash. There's a lot of subtlety in sound differences that you pick up on if you're really into thrash, maybe that's the problem. Before I got into thrash I'd probably agree with you.

What riff did they rip off, and from what song?

The verses of Enter the Grave has the same DUNDUNDUNDUN-DANANANANA' from Raining Blood. No, you're not noticing any subtleties that I'm missing, and if you think that you are I'd like the know what subtleties make Evile's music unique.

You're missing my point anyway, which is that metal is near enough standing still because people are content with emulating old stuff rather than taking a new approach.

I agree with Nokturn about the many absent spirited styled thrash bands being regressive and plagued by stagnation. It is most definitely important to push the boundaries, but sadly, the innovation required to maintain boundaries as well as pushing them does not come easy these days.

For extreme metal, how much more extreme can bands get? Bands like Warbringer, Merciless Death, Savage Skull are regressing stylistically because they enjoy paying homage to the older bands styles. Now I personally, despise these new wave retro bands, I much rather discover new older bands than listen to bands paying tribute to the classics.

I dislike the heavily cliched outlook and behavior on display by the aforementioned bands. Many of these kids have a generalized perception of 80's metal attitude, style of dress etc. and that is pretty enraging. Hearing how a 16 year old is using the word 'poseur' like it's his middle name, when he/she probably got into metal while lurking through forums and downloading discographies of bands with a mere click of a button.

The spirit is truly absent; young metalheads have a mainstream source for acquiring music (The Internet), and as a result, metalheads have a sense of pretentiousness.

But on the other hand, I agree with the Warbringer vocalist . Playing what makes you happy is just as good as being an innovator in the scene. Taking inspiration from bands you love and playing within that realm of music is great and if the music is of quality standard in his point of view, than that is fine. There are countless 'traditional' styled metal bands out there, and their attitude is not much different than the thrash revival bands. There is just less hatred because they are not being signed to mainstream record labels.

Now, in my personal opinion, I think it is a bad idea to restrict yourself to playing simply oldschool thrash worship when influences from other relevant metal styles ought to be appreciated as well. Thrash bands were trying to be as extreme or empowering as possible, yet modern thrash bands are toning themselves down to be as conventional thrash as possible.

My personal favorite style would be death/thrash or brutal thrash in the vain of Deceased, Morbid Saint, Devastation, Pestilence, Demolition hammer, Vader etc. Hearing the new wave of thrash bands restricting their style to Megadeth+Metallica+Exodus+Slayer+Kreator gets tiring when you hear all those influences in the oldschool death metal inspired by early thrash. Rather than expanding on the genre, the retro bands restrict themselves stylistically to it.

Bands like Sepultura were trying to push themselves to the extreme, yet the retro bands are pinned to that certain 1983-1987 sound but most horribly fail at it. If i want to hear a band that sounds like Possessed or listen to a band taking posessed sound and pushing it, I'd choose the latter.

Now I dont hate the idea of modern thrash, I just dislike the output from many younger modern thrash bands. However, veteran bands like Absu just released two ep's in which their sound is directly derivative of oldskool thrash tinged with the standout appeal of Absu's original sound..and that is what I like to hear. I know their new album wont' be anything like these ep's, but it was great to hear Absu playing in the vain of pleasure to kill meets Vitriol and sun of tipareth.

Anyways, in many ways I agree with the op, but at the same time, the retro thrash scene isn't as necessarily a misrepresentation of what metal is about. These bands are playing in a style that influenced the extremes and even if they are restricted stylistically, they enjoy what they play. Nothing wrong with playing riff styles that stylistically appeal to you. I'm influenced heavily by bands like Malevolent Creation, Suffocation, Revenant, early Death as well as bands like Heathen, Sodom, Destruction, but even with a clash of two genres, that doesn't make me an innovator, simply someone who writes music that appeals to me stylistically, and you can't blame anyone for wanting to write music that is creatively appealing although unoriginal in composition.

I dislike Warbringer and their musical efforts, but they have good musicianship. The awful inspired cliche 80's mannerisms are another thing which ruined you guys for me. The cliche attitude imo is a mockery to the scene. This does not apply to warbringer because you guys seemed to be less image concerned than the likes of Merciless Death. My friend jon plays in a traditional metal band, yet he's not afraid to wear a Decapitated shirt when playing live and I don't think these retro bands need to restrict their look and one liners to patch saturated denim vists and "WHAT WE NEED IS SOME BEER AND SOME CIRCLE PITS"

What if the retro bands are doing in metal what the early punk bands did to rock in the 70's? Rejecting the overly complex, technical, pompous, wanktastic new styles and returning to the musics roots by playing fast, heavy music packed full of attitude.

Retro-thrash as I see it, is more or less in response to the horrible pseudo-thrash genres of the 90s and early 00s. You know, all that Pantera derived crap; bands like Machine Head that tried to pass themselves off as thrash. That and maybe also the melodeath/thrash stuff that was really big a while ago, The Haunted, The Crown, etc.

I agree with thrash being a response to deviate from the groove/metalcore genres and to pay direct homage to the innovators of extreme metal. However, the new thrash wave definitely doesn't compare to the punk scene. These bands are come in all kinds of packages ranging from Hellhammer worship to bands that sound like Toxik and Destruction. So the technical prowess is quite evident in many thrash bands. Like John from Warbringer said, there is an overwhelming possibility that there will be no progression from the retro thrash revival, but it is still better to have the retro thrash sound over the metalcore sound.

Very similar pattern, different notes. It's a good likeliness, I'll give you that, but saying it's the same riff is stretching things rather a lot.


Feh, this'd all come down to "yes it is" "no it's not" but the color of their riffs and songwriting is very different. The feel is less about the precipice of evil and more about the crushing drive of aggression. I don't know what other subtleties you'd like me to point out, but I can assure you that Slayer is far down the line in bands I'd say Evile sound like.


Yeah, I understand that's a problem for some people. Look, not everyone thinks it's important for metal to "move forward." Some of us look back on the last 15 years of metal and think "well, that certainly was a load of garbage."

I said something earlier, elsewhere, about this thread and I'll repeat it here. If we're "killing metal," and metal means the kind of music that's being made by people that are pushing the boundaries and adding opera singers and folk influence? Yeah, I hope we kill it. I'd like to choke it until the corpse is cold.

Or, put more nicely, if you want to move away from what makes metal metal, go to it and enjoy... just don't shit on us for not following the caravan.

Isn't it really just a question of which caravan you're following?

Uhh... not by the metaphor I was using, which was more of a "go ahead and follow the caravan, we'll stay here by this nice watering hole" thingy than a "you're a FOLLOWERRRR" thingy.

I agree entirely with the OP. I can't even think of ONE new thrash/death metal band that has captured me the way entombed, death, possessed, repulsion, sodom, or kreator did the first time I heard any of them. That magical 'spark' is just not there like it was in the old days when all this was new, and it never will be. So, I really think they should all try to go in new, experimental directions with it or just fucking hang it up, because they're just making a lot of us attract unwanted flies...

Noone is denying your right to produce thrash in the traditional style, the fact is just that too many bands are forming to follow a set path, complete with attire, sound, and lyrical subject. It's totally cool if you want to use '86 thrash as a model, but it's not necessary to have another Kreator/Slayer/Exodus, because one is enough, see what I mean? Like I can see where Warbringer is coming from, but I cant say they are just a carbon copy of Band X. You guys are solid at what you do, and are also great live (I caught Warbringer at the Gilman last month), so I say good for you. Not really my thing though.


Oh, and looks like you got a real kick out of that, Lich_King. Have you read the new one?

Ah yes, someone earlier in the thread said "I don't acknowledge warbringer's right to exist because its not groundbreaking music", that was in response to that. And thank you.

I see what you mean, and agree. Hell, even with 80's thrash theres a lot I pass over because I think another band evoked the same kind of feeling but better.

Agreed with Lich King on the "you can progress down that modern road if you want, but I call that modern road Suck Blvd, so I'll stay back over in the realms of pure metal badassery" sentiment. Well said.

And it's certainly bound to happen. Time passes and musical ideas evolve. Most of these retro thrash bands have only released one album so far and most of the retrothrash haters are judging the entire thing based on the debuts of FbF, Warbringer etc.

Bands like Avenger of Blood have dug themselves into a creative grave though.

Absolutely incomparable, for one thing thrash is more technical to begin with, for another '77 punk put a new spin on the earlier "simpler" music and was quite different from '60s garage rock or '70s British pub rock, from which they took some inspiration.

There are ways of making styles like thrash or even punk "evolve", be it by combining with other styles, experimentation, electronics and so on, it's just that there isn't much of that going on at the moment. On the other hand, it seems that at any period in time that are few innovators and tons of crappy bands, and even in the 1980s cover bands and glam bands were the most common type of "metal" bands, most of the other stuff was pretty underground except for a few bands.

You can be "old school" without being "retro".

Worst case scenario is when metal (in general) ends up like the blues, ya know, a sort of consensus that everything's invented and you play along the established patterns forever. Would be a terrible shame.

Now personally, I'm pretty damn conservative when it comes to metal, but I see where the OP is coming from. As I see it, the issue with harkening back to the glory days is that the scene simply isn't what it used to be. There's some kickass retro style thrash n death being made, but it won't manifest itself in an 80s (or even 90s) crowd. This being due to the way the internet or whatever changed consumption patterns, or the fact that metal in general has splintered into quite watertight compartments (which I'd say always was a much greater "threat" to the progression of the scene than nostalgia).

I'd never deny any musician or band their right to exist though.. to each their own.

Deathmantra is/was my personal retro fave. Fuck, it (their demo) ain't breaking no new paths, but it's the most sinister death I had heard in ages. In the end songwriting quality isn't genre or retro-avant dependant.

Depends on what "that" is, you're going to have to get a bit more specific with your pronouns.

Thanks John, good to see you here fighting the fight. I've been getting pretty pissy over this kind of metal snob shit.

And one's bad, one's good, right? I don't think so. The retro guys are a bit more annoying as they're going out of their ways to buy high-tops and exhibit just how 80's they are, maaan, but I don't see an appreciable difference. Looking to the quality of the music being made should be the thing.

I don't think all retro bands are bad. I'm just saying that hating retro stuff and wanting progression doesn't mean that one would "go down the modern road". I'd rather listen to retro bands than "modern" bands, but I think the best current bands are the ones who stay true to the old school roots but still manage to sound unique. Some retro bands may have dozens of killer riffs and their albums may even be in a way more solid than some classic thrash albums from the 80's (just intense thrashing for thirty minutes without any "experimental" stuff), but I have yet to hear a retro band that would have the "magic" that would make me want to give the album dozens or hundreds of spins like my favorite albums. That magic is for the most part created by the will to create something new and break boundaries, which is something retro bands don't and can't have.

Here's the question that's been nibbling at my mind: which would people rather listen to: recent albums by 80s thrash bands, or recent albums by 00s thrash bands?

Death Magnetic or Enter the Grave?
Hordes of Chaos or War Without End?

Not that I mean to compare any two albums against each other specifically, but to compare the two groups overall.

So lets forget thrash and death and all play metalcore?

Labels ripping people off etc etc etc...

"Return to the roots" albums are usually even worse than the retro stuff. They have all the same flaws, except that newer bands usually at least have some of that energy that the older bands have lost years ago. Old bands are usually just tired and try to imitate themselves with no success. Of course there are bands like Invasion (US) that formed in the 80's but still managed to release killer stuff in 1999 and 2002, the new Sacrifice sounds good too, and I wouldn't mind seeing a new Razor album either, but I couldn't care less about the new Kreator album for example.

That's pretty much my opinion too. Also, someone will have to take the lead when Slayer, Kreator, Obituary, etc etc retire, which tragically won't be that long now, and for years the future of metal was nu-metal and then metalcore, so at least now we're headed in the right direction.

But that's what Noktorn's point was in the first place! Being retro isn't "taking the lead", it's the exact opposite.

This is the upshot of the OP.

+1

Ok, maybe "taking the lead" was the wrong way to put it, perhaps "keeping the sound and spirit alive" is better.
I want to still be able to go to thrash gigs in 15 years time, and I was too young to enjoy it all the first time round, so I'm really lapping it up.

Yes; it's the seeming unwillingness and/or inability of the retro proponents to see this point that is about enough to make me give up on the discussion. It's been said many times yet still this false dichotomy persists. There is a virtually unlimited middle ground between "retro" and "earth-shatteringly new", between "retro" and "adding opera vocals", between "retro" and "innovation for its own sake", between "retro" and "going down the modern road." Retro bands are placing themselves at the extreme end of the spectrum (read: there are more than two alternatives here!) and myself and others are putting forth that moving a little farther in the progressive* direction would probably be beneficial. There's no problem with playing thrash metal in 2009, but I think there is a problem with playing retro thrash metal. "Retro" implies a devotion to the 1980s formula from the sound to the fashion to the behavior to the album covers, it implies that such emulation is valued so highly that it becomes a significant part of many bands' image.

* Please, and I cannot stress this enough, "progressive" is not to be equated with Opeth or Mike Patton or Unexpect or any other sort or genre-splicing avant-garde that might well horrify purists. Think of something gentle and logical, like Kill 'em All -> Ride The Lightning.


It's amazing, really, why do I bother putting ";)" after a playful remark if people still takes it as some sort of threat? Dude, you've trashed retro thrash metal just as much as I have (if not more so) in this thread!

Who did I shit on? I said that we're getting less interesting bands because they're intent on sounding old school rather than trying any new approaches - you can disagree, I have no problem with you listening to whatever music you want, but none of this 'retro' music is doing anything for me other than repeating what's been done already, with lesser quality. And I don't like opera or folk metal one bit, so I don't understand why you'd use that example. It's not even new, that's an old tactic so I don't think I'm quite understanding your point.

Music world do not need another "thrash-metal" era in the style of 83-87.
Otherwise some quarters of metallers do need one and i understand why to some extent.

Starting with 90s major artistic contributions to rock music's canon came from bands that added extremely "foreign" elements to their take on a particular style, Burzum, Earth, Neurosis, Ulver, Godflesh, Today is The Day, Faith No More, nu-metal and coutless others are for me just different faces of this particular situation (sometimes ending up becoming a non-metal band even!).

Nowadays Drone-doom, post-metal, ambient/black metal (all genres that increasingly give more and more importance on texture --- working in a not dissimilar way of contemporary avantgarde/glitch/ambient acts) are for me the most creative genres out there. They are the product of the time, as well was Thrash Metal in middle 80s. Not one of them is close to the spirit of the '80s i think.

its the the approach and remold of "non-metal" features (wheter in songwriting, attitude, production) that keeps metal (artistically) alive. As time goes on metal will split dramatically in a similar way of jazz... I've even read that Armstrong used to laugh at free-jazz. In fact i think that its very different for an audience/generation of musician that produced Manowar or Metallica to relate to Khanate for example.

so we have fans (and musicians) that are in line with the spirit of the music (that originated in the 80s) and still stay true to that "pure" take on metal. This kind of people is right when say that metal is dead or similar things. THEIR world and their idea of metal is buried in the past and can be resurrected only artificially (via "Retrò" trends for example).

And then we have fans that (and musicians) that when pick up a cd (or a guitar in musicians' case) do not have their mind and ears filled only by Slayer's or Bathory's listening experience. People that do not see "holy" metal as and end in itself but as a device (or a basic idea that need to be wed with other X ideas) to create heavy, contemporary music.

Furthermore i think that "thrash metal" has been made obsolete by different styles of death-metal (in musical prowess and violence), metalcore/crossover (as punk-metal hybrid) and even groove metal.
And a prime retro band can aim to be remember as a good tribute-band at the best. Not really something that will caught the interest of next generations of listeners imo.

When someone wants to listen to a thrash metal album, he/she doesn't just look for musical prowess or violence. People listen to thrash just to headbang and have a good time.

And Metalcore and crossover in the same line, that too with a "/" !? Good lord.. and if you think that thrash was made obsolete by crossover, then that happened way back in 1985, which doesn't really make sense. Thrash isn't really a metal/punk HYBRID because it is like 80% metal 20% punk and not 60/40 like crossover.

I apologize for that you're right.
I didnt mean the music by D.R.I. or early Prong or what is called crossover thrash.
I meant the gay-metalcore of KSE followers as well other takes on the styles by hardcore-bands such as Hatebreed, Converge, Biohazard, Dillinger, Coalesce and so on... and i did come up with the wrong term

anyway just for the record when i listen to metal headbanging and "good time" are far less relevant than catharsis or atmosphere to me

Yes, as is the case with me. But thrash is a genre I listen to when I'm just bored out of my mind and nothing's doing the trick. I just put on something like Bonded by Blood or Eternal Nightmare, and just bang my head until I accidentally hit my head on the wall lol.

Agreed.





I didn't mean that the retro thrash and death bands are doing exactly what the early punks did, just that the idea is similar.
Back to basics, only in "old" or "dead" styles.