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KFD
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:43 am 
 

Each time I listen to Reign in Blood, I'm amazed by the power of the guitar tone. It's so more compact and in-your-face than previous album Hell Awaits...

How could I get near this tone with a tube combo amp? Does post-production play a major role?
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somefella
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:02 am 
 

This is true for all albums, but especially for this one; hands. Most of the punchiness comes from the exemplary rhythm playing from Hanneman(God rest his soul) and King. To me it just sounds like a typical JCM800 + TS-808 with a bit of EQ, being used by guitarists who play it like they mean it, with impeccable palm puting and alternate picking technique.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:26 am 
 

Your post is irrelevant: the guitarists' playing is quite the same on Hell Awaits and Reign in Blood. But the production (in terms of sound, tone) clearly differs a bit between both. This has nothing to do with playing technique.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:29 am 
 

KFD wrote:
Your post is irrelevant: the guitarists' playing is quite the same on Hell Awaits and Reign in Blood..


:lol:

EDIT: You can easily get this tone with a tube-combo and a decent mic. It's in your hands(or it should be).
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KFD
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:49 am 
 

Then please detail the settings to me, because I didn't get anywhere near with my own material.

Amp: B-52 ST-6012
Guitar: XOX Handle (equipped with Super Distortion pick-ups)
Pedal: DistMachine DM3
Mic: SM57 or Sony static digital mic


The best I can get is a decent raw black metal, stoner metal, punk-rock or lo-fi thrash tone.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:52 am 
 

www.metronomeonline.com

Play the Angel Of Death verse riff every day and you're on your way.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:57 am 
 

There seems to be a misunderstanding. I don't look forward to record a Slayer cover. I would just like to get a similar guitar tone (for recording a new song of mine), because I don't like most other thrash bands' guitar tone.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:59 am 
 

And like I said, believe it or not, most great tones are greatly due to the technique of the player in question. If you want a sound like Slayer's, you'll have to practice til you get to a similar standard of picking.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:00 am 
 

https://soundcloud.com/vordak/tired-of-the-walls

Do you really think that this song of mine would have a better production if I played it better?
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:10 pm 
 

Spoiler: show
Somefella, just don't bother. There is a reason why most people have him on mute.
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Last edited by Zodijackyl on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Come on now, you didn't need to post just to say that.

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soul_schizm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:26 am 
 

KFD wrote:
Each time I listen to Reign in Blood, I'm amazed by the power of the guitar tone. It's so more compact and in-your-face than previous album Hell Awaits...

How could I get near this tone with a tube combo amp? Does post-production play a major role?


They used Marshall heads with 4X12 cabbies. I know they used very little, if any, reverb. And they didn't use a crap ton of distortion.

Too much reverb will make your tone sound loose. It depends on what you want to accomplish, but Slayer put a premium on tight palm-muting and such on that album. I believe Rick Rubin, to his credit, convinced them to go with much less reverb than they used on Hell Awaits. It worked pretty good.

After that, it's just tone settings and, like somefella says, great playing and attitude.

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Chainsaw Omega
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:14 am 
 

Ok, I'll bite.


Having had experience with that amp on the last tour I did, I will say this. The tone of that B-52 is not all that comparable to what you are looking for. The voicing of the B-52 is decidedly American. While I wouldn't call it a hardline Mesa sound(the AT-100 is though), it falls somewhere in that area, with a little bit of a Peavey snarl. Slayer has always(to my knowledge) used Marshall, both live and in the studio, specifically, the JCM800 2203 model.

BUUUUUT, if you must go with the amp you have, Here is where I would start. First, tune down a half-step to where Slayer are most of the time. I know nothing about that pedal you have, though I am semi-interested after reading into it. For now though, ditch it. Use the 57.

Not for settings. Set the rectifier to solid-state. Go to the gain 1 channel. Set the gain knob around 3 o-clock. The contour knob shouldn't do anything on this channel, but set it all the way to the left just in case. Bass: 10-o'clock, and don't go higher. Mid: about 3- o'clock. High: 1- o'clock. for the volume, go as loud as you can. If you can crank it to 10, then great. If not, do what you can. Without having this amp in my possession anymore, this is about as close as I can think to getting the Slayer tone. You could try tinkering with the gain 2 channel, but that channel is pretty far from what you are looking for. What you need to get yourself is a tube screamer to but in front of this. If you are a cheapass, get the Behringer TO100. If is a copy of the ts-9 and it costs $25. Put that in front of it and tinker with the settings on the pedal. You SHOULD be getting close, though no guarantees.

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KFD
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:57 am 
 

Thanks for your post, I will test your configuration as soon as possible.


Chainsaw Omega wrote:
Not for settings. Set the rectifier to solid-state.


I have no choice, because the other positions don't work anymore.


Quote:
You could try tinkering with the gain 2 channel, but that channel is pretty far from what you are looking for.


Yet in theory, the gain 1 channel aims at emulating American Mesa Boogie tone, while the gain 2 channel aims at emulating British Marshall tone (think about Sex Pistols tone).


Quote:
What you need to get yourself is a tube screamer to but in front of this. If you are a cheapass, get the Behringer TO100. If is a copy of the ts-9 and it costs $25. Put that in front of it and tinker with the settings on the pedal.


Yes, I already own a Behringer TO100. I already tried to couple it with my B-52 amp, but the result sounded more like garage indie rock.
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Nightwisher1990
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:20 am 
 

I guess It's about their playing style they play really powerful, I am not sure what do they use for it, but If wanna try anything related to getting a tone I'd do it with a Poulin Le456 + some of god's cabinet, their tone I guess have a lot of treble.

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infinitenexus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:01 pm 
 

On Reign in Blood, they used either JCM800 or JCM 900 heads, can't remember, and Marshall 4X12 cabs. They miced them very directly, in fact they built a sort of "wall" around the cab/mic from sound-absorbent marterial so there was no natural reverb or echo at all, just a very direct sound. They did scoop the midrange a bit on that album, and it was the last album they did that on. Also, both guitarists used EMG81 bridge pickups. The rest was in their hands.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:36 am 
 

@ChainsawOmega, I tested your configuration and it sounds good. Thank you.
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jedimasterhassan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:09 pm 
 

i've always read that kerry king uses an eq pedal to boost his mids, but im not sure if he was using it at the time. i know for a fact that it was a jcm 800 they used, im not sure about a tubescreamer, but i would assume so. any tube amp with a tubescreamer should get you close to that tone. a tubescreamer by itself on the clean channel probably wont give you enough gain. but if you have an amp with decent overdrive (meaning if you turn your guitar volume down, the sound cleans up) you should be able to put your tubescreamer in front of gain channel using just a bit of gain. and the tubescreamer should take care of the rest

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DarkWolfXV
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:49 pm 
 

somefella wrote:
And like I said, believe it or not, most great tones are greatly due to the technique of the player in question. If you want a sound like Slayer's, you'll have to practice til you get to a similar standard of picking.


Tone in your hands argument is pure bullshit. Seriously. Tone is in your hands? Get fender twin reverb then with and get me, for example, Carcass, or even better, old Devourment tone please. BUT WAIT. The tone is in your hands! Why do you tell me it is impossible? Not enough gain? Okay, because tone is actually in the amp (At least like 50% of it), the shit that processes your signal the most. Tone is your guitar, your amp, you amp eq, your cab, your speakers in the cab. Not the way how you do play something, and certainly not your hands, they dont like add mids, lows, treble, gain or anything. It is highly unlikely that my flesh sounds acoustically different than yours, for example. Square wave rectification simply does not fucking care.

Back to the actual discussion, KFD, to get Reign In Blood tone you need a Marshall JCM 800 and a Marshall cab(s) with G12/V30's. Google does not say exactly which pickups, but people on different forums debate between DiMarzio Megadrive and Super Distortion (Basically, keep what you have). They used EMG's later, after Reign in Blood. Production does play a big role though, as bass guitar and drums both interact with what you hear on the record. If you have a program which can do it, try listening to only one speaker (Like pan feature in one program, but I forgot in which one, uh.) to hear what guitars really sound like. Forums also say Kerry King used Boss EQ with mids boost on it.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:21 pm 
 

Sounds like a pathetic argument from a lousy player who blames shitty sound on his gear that doesn't cost thousands. There's a reason why Brian May sounds exactly like Brian May even when Tony Iommi got him to play through his rig. There's a reason why every rich man's son on YouTube with a Jeff Loomis signature guitar(with the extremely universal EMG pickup) don't sound like him at all. Of course your FLESH doesn't cause significant acoustic differences, if you took the 'hands' thing literally you need to go back to grade school English.

The way you play something affects your sound almost as much as changing pickups. Pick attack, palm-muting, pick dynamics all are very big factors, ask any competent sound engineer who ISN'T trying to rip you off. Why do you think James Hetfield/Max Cavelera/Jon Schaffer/Pat O'Brien records both rhythm layers for so many of their bands' songs? Can't the other guitarist just use his rig and do it? Dave Mustaine insisted that Chris Broderick use his exact same setup for all the Megadeth albums he recorded on, why do you think they still both sound so different(unless they don't to you, in which case you won't understand anything in this post at all anyway) ? Zero professional/serious musicians will tell you that tone is all gear dependent. A big part of it comes from HOW you play it.

If you want to talk about more relatable examples, if you use MY same exact setup, I guarantee you will NOT sound like me at all. How's that for your wave square rectification?

I didn't want to sound rude or condescending, but your lack of real knowledge/jargon and your own initial lack of manners deserves no less.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:19 pm 
 

@DarkWolfXV: thanks for answering.

Now my main problem is about the mic. I mic'ed my amp with an SM57, but I am not satisfied with the result: there's still this lack of compactness and this "filled with air" feeling.
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infinitenexus
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:34 pm 
 

The mic needs to be right smack up against the speaker. You need a very direct sound.


And I think some of you are confusing playing style with tone. If Pay O'Brien is playing a telecaster through a fender twin, the style will absolutely still be his, but the tone will (obviously) be different. It's not going to sound like his tone on "murder worship" in any way, shape, or form. Conversely speaking, if he and I both played through his Mesa setup, our styles would be vastly different, however the tone would be very similar. Tone and style. They're two very seperate things. And while all of the style is of course in the hands of the player, I would say at least 90% of the tone comes from the guitar/amp.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:58 pm 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
The mic needs to be right smack up against the speaker. You need a very direct sound.


I did that. I tried several different positions: between both speakers, in front of the left/right speaker's center, on the side of one speaker... The best position is between both speakers, but the result is not satisfying. Maybe I should try to isolate the SM57's head?


Quote:
And I think some of you are confusing playing style with tone.


"some of you" = somefella
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infinitenexus
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:06 pm 
 

When I mic a speaker, I put an SM57 on one speaker, between the center and the edge. Sometimes I may angle it slightly toward the center or toward the edge, if I need a little more treble or a little more bass.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:08 pm 
 

I mic mine in the center of a single speaker. If you can't get what you want out of that it's your shit gear or your shit recording equipment.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:47 pm 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
And I think some of you are confusing playing style with tone. If Pay O'Brien is playing a telecaster through a fender twin, the style will absolutely still be his, but the tone will (obviously) be different. It's not going to sound like his tone on "murder worship" in any way, shape, or form. Conversely speaking, if he and I both played through his Mesa setup, our styles would be vastly different, however the tone would be very similar. Tone and style. They're two very seperate things. And while all of the style is of course in the hands of the player, I would say at least 90% of the tone comes from the guitar/amp.


Only to a degree. The biggest factor I would say is the amp, obviously but tone depends on many things as well. In fact, if you and I were to just chug the open E string on the same setup, there would STILL be differences. The point I was making is that the guitar sound on that album, more so than many other albums, is very largely due to the playing style of the duo. Because style DOES affect tone. 2 people can play the exact same song in the exact same way(upstroke which note, downstroke which note, palmmute this chord, let that chord ring) and it will STILL sound different.

Generally I'd say that sound is 60% amp, 20% guitar/pickups and 20% guitarist. All of which can very to a degree.

Blaming bad sound entirely on gear like many in this thread are doing just reeks of lazy musicians with poor musicianship.
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Porman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:33 pm 
 

I don't know if someone else wrote it.

You want the sound that Slayer is known for?

ESP with EMG
JCM800 2003
EQ With a bow, high and low freq set to flat, mids raised

Or just get Kerry Kings amp.
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DarkWolfXV
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:01 pm 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
And I think some of you are confusing playing style with tone. If Pay O'Brien is playing a telecaster through a fender twin, the style will absolutely still be his, but the tone will (obviously) be different. It's not going to sound like his tone on "murder worship" in any way, shape, or form. Conversely speaking, if he and I both played through his Mesa setup, our styles would be vastly different, however the tone would be very similar. Tone and style. They're two very seperate things. And while all of the style is of course in the hands of the player, I would say at least 90% of the tone comes from the guitar/amp.


This.

Also somafella, I'm pretty content with the sounds I can make with my 350$ guitar and a Peavey 6505+ 112. I can get a good tone out of that.
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hexen
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:23 am 
 

King and Hanneman aren't tone gods, they actually use their amps for their tone.

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Nightwisher1990
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:08 pm 
 

I totally agree with somefella, guitar tone comes mainly from picking style, of course you're not going to play slayer with glam rock distortion that's a point that shouldn't be discussed, I don't think anyone would sound like John Shaffer even If he used his own gear, that's due to picking hand mainly.
As an example, with average gain, can anyone sound really really powerful (like iced earth) when palm muting on D string ? I don't think a lot would get the same sound even with same gear.

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sea
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:06 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/vordak/tired-of-the-walls

Do you really think that this song of mine would have a better production if I played it better?

No, but your production is complete shit.

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KFD
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:53 am 
 

Please detail your post. Is it because of the mixing, of the instrumental takes, or just because you don't like it?

I mean, we don't necessarily share the same criteria for good production. But it's clear that I'm not satisfied with the production of my song.
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p4vl
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:25 am 
 

Kerry King's Warlock had Bill Lawrence L-500 or l500xl (his red '76 BC Rich Mockingbird had a Dimarzio Super Distortion). Same thing Dime used. One of King's guitars had a not-quite-out-of-production pickup by Dimarzio called the Megadrive.

Don't know what pickups Hanneman had in his Rich Bich but it was probably Dimarzio, Duncan or Lawrence, nothing custom or exotic, neither of them used EMG's until Seasons.

Both used Kahler tremolos (Hell Awaits the man that invented those fucking things).

Marshall JCM800's 100W 2203's with 6550 power tubes and 1960a cabs w/G12t75's (Celestion didn't release the vintage 30 until after the album was recorded).

Both boosted their amps with a 10-band Boss EQ set in a 'pyramid' shape (boosting the fuck out of the mids) and turning the pedal's 'gain' band all the way up. The EQ ran in front of the amp (I don't think Slayer's Marshalls circa '86 had loops).

I've never heard of them using an overdrive pedal for rhythm tone.

Mids are the secret of Slayer tone. You don't need to clobber people with overly bassy guitar tone when you've got classic riffs.

Pretty sure they also used Charmin.

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KFD
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:48 pm 
 

p4vl wrote:
Pretty sure they also used Charmin.


I guess it's a joke.
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:35 pm 
 

Hey man I can vouch for the people that say it's technique. I have a $100 amp and I get killer tones out of it because I kill the strings. As long as you're not working with a little 15watt amp that comes with guitar starter kits you're good as long as you abuse those strings and hit em hard.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:40 pm 
 

Do you mean that you spend more time practising your actual pick attack than tweaking your unknown-brand 100$ amp settings?
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:43 pm 
 

Excuse me... equipment is obviously all that matters... sorry bro :(

I'll quit music until I can get an "insert brand here" $500+ amp instead and sit around jerking its knobs off hoping something sticks.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:16 pm 
 

That doesn't answer my question. Plus with a 100$ budget, you can hardly buy anything better than a 15 watt practice amp.

I don't have any dogma concerning music equipment, I'm just quoting my own experience. And from my own experience, the amp model matters more than the guitar model to get a certain tone. I mean that upgrading my amp model gave me a far better tone than upgrading my guitar model.

But if you can obtain a better tone just by upgrading your picking skills, that's great, tell us about your own experience.

And, you know what? The best would be to provide some samples. A sample badly played, and another sample well-played, in order to let us hear the tone difference.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:19 am 
 

KFD wrote:
Do you mean that you spend more time practising your actual pick attack than tweaking your unknown-brand 100$ amp settings?


themicrulah, don't waste your time dude. If anyone can actually say something like this, the best gear and music teachers in the world can't save em.
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DarkWolfXV
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:08 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:19 am 
 

Once again, somefella, playing something with better pick attack doesn't make 100$ amp sound like a 4000$ amp.
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somefella
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2584
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:09 am 
 

It can still make a person's sound a hell of a lot better. Blaming bad sound purely on gear gets no one anywhere. Playing cleaner and more aggressively will do wonders for your sound. Shitty technique through a $4000 amp will still sound bad. Once you are able to morph your playing towards what sound you want, you get the necessary gear to further push your sound in that direction. You think big bands like Kreator or Cannibal Corpse or Hate Eternal have better sound than a random soundcloud/facebook band ONLY because they have better gear? :lol:

EDIT: Tone is not ALL in the gear, not is it ALL in technique. But to dismiss the latter as completely as many of you are is a big mistake. Put an amateur in an F1 car and he will still not outrace Vettel in a Prius. And in the case of RiB, the OP's gear is more than good enough to get a similar tone. Hence the continued advice for him to not be lazy and actually fucking practice picking like he's playing Slayer and not Taylor Swift. Everyone here who doesn't have tons of money to blow on gear all the time should have had the experience of playing through the shitty amp they first had, improving their skills/technique, and returning to that amp one day and suddenly finding you can make it scream. Heaviness is very much due to your palm-muting technique and pick attack rather than lots and lots of distortion, for example.
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