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Revan_Wolfheart
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:53 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:10 am 
 

Hey guys, so I recently decided that I might rethink my guitar/ recording set up, but I need some suggestions on what I should do.
So here’s a list of what I’ve got at the moment:

A pod GX
Two Marshall MG series amps, one’s a 30DFX, the other’s just a 10 watt practice amp, I currently don’t use either for anything other than practice... actually I don't use them at all.
A headset microphone
A JTS TM-969 performance microphone
Shitty keyboard
A Jackson
A Fender Squire
Cubase
Guitar Rig
Some of the Acmebarig vst’s
Some of the Poulin Vst’s
The original pod farm, but I don’t like using it since I can’t use it post-recording, only while I am recording
and easy drummer

So the problem I’m having is that my set up simply sounds a bit too digital to me, and I’m not quite sure how to get a good guitar tone. My main goal is black metal / early melodic death metal. I’m not looking for anything too specific, just something that’s a recognisably black metal tone, or something close to a melodic death metal tone. I’ve been reading around a bit, but I don’t think there is enough material out there to answer all my question, or to help me come to a decision.

I understand that one part of the black metal tone is turning down the bass, turning up the treble and then getting just enough mids to be audible in the mix and that while recording I want a neutral sound that I can manipulate easily in post production.

Using my vst’s I can’t really get any of the tones I like, they either coming out sounding extremely digital, over distorted or a combination of the two.
So far I’ve heard that an Arion Metal Master works well for black metal. Apparently the Metalzone works even better for black metal. The HM-2 is perfect for death metal when you aren’t using a high range tube head, but it doesn’t really cut it for black metal. And it sounds like just about every Swedish / Norwegian band has used a Peavey Bandit, but what makes the Peavey Bandit so good?
I also heard that when it comes to audio interfaces there really isn’t a difference in the $50-$400 range, but I don’t really want to spend a whole heap of money upgrading mine, particularly since it gets a good enough sound for my needs.

Apparently I should also look into getting a microphone for recording, but I don’t think anything I can get out of my marshalls is worth recording; they don’t even have knobs for mids. A lot of people have also ordered me to get a bass... I think I’d rather just try to midi it instead.

Should I just keep experimenting with vst amps until I get something decent? Does anyone know a good internet resource I could consult about getting a good tone for black metal, early melo death or just general tone building?

What about a lo-fi filter plug-in / pedal, would that help me achieve the sound that I’m looking for?

Naturally, I’d like to spend as little money as possible, I don’t want to waste my money again like when I bought my marshalls.

Or finally should I just go and read some more about gear, tone, recording and what not?

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doktersatan
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 209
Location: Amsterdam
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:25 am 
 

buy a shure sm57 and maybe a nice distortion pedal(don't get the metalzone, which is one of the most useless pedals for recording ever, IMHO) for your marshalls. I only have experience with the 100watt version of the MG series, and no it's not the nicest marshall to record but you can certainly get usable tones out of it. VST amp sims should be outlawed.

I would'nt go overboard with the highs on your amp, most of the times I record I keep the amp relatively flat. maybe trn down the bass a bit on 4x12 setups and stuff..

get a small interface like the mackie blackjack or whatever and a shure. your gear is nice enough for good guitar recording :)
IF you really want lo-fi burzum tones just use your headphones as a mic, just like varg did :P

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Goran
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:32 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:34 am 
 

First off, I'm mostly a VST-user myself. That being said, I understand your issue of not being able to build your dream tone.
I often have that very problem, but it's usually for leads and technical or brutal rhythm.

Old school tones (and black metal in general) are a little easier to achieve, because they allow for more grit and don't have to sound as meticulous.
With a basic VST setup, I have done some black metal covers such as Gorgoroth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF_PDpOBCmA) and Satyricon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5B3nUXCH1M).
Not the most atmospheric black metal, but both tones are fitting in the mix and don't sound blatantly digital. I found them by playing around for ten minutes.

From what I've further seen on Youtube, people in different metal genres have amazing VST tones (djent, thrash, death, ...) so I'd say your only limited by your own knowledge and experiments.

Certainly try out a myriad of combinations with the cab impulses. Different mic placement can severely impact the fizz and 'directness' in your tone.
A good starting point if you have an existing amp in mind is taking the impulses from that cab and a VST emulating the head. It'll get you going in the right direction.
Try using a tubescreamer VST in front of the amp, it greases up your tone really good without having to crank the amp to shit.
If I were more of an expert, I could give you more specific advice but yeah.

Good luck and if you find anything useful, please do share. :)

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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:44 am 
 

Here's a black metal song of mine:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72840986/Baptiz ... 0Blood.mp3

and a melodic death metal song:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72840986/8%20th ... othing.mp3

Both were made with EZDrummer and VSTs for guitars and bass. If you like either of those tones I'll gladly tell you how I got them, it wasn't hard. And Goran is exactly right about the tubescreamer. I put a simulanalog tubescreamer VST in front of nearly every VST amplifier I use.
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Goran
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:32 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:44 am 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
If you like either of those tones I'll gladly tell you how I got them, it wasn't hard.

Would you mind sharing those settings? Always fun to gain some insight. :) I particularly like the black metal tone, sounds classic.

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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:13 am 
 

The black metal tone was using LePou's LeGion and LeCab. My settings on the amp were green channel, lead mode, slight bass cut, slight mid cut, small treble and presence boost, contour and volume at noon.

THe melodic death metal tone was done using a simulanalog tubescreamer with the gain all the way down, tone and level about 75% up, and LePou's Le456 (Engl clone). The settings on that were channel A, high gain, slight bass cut, mids at noon, treble at 3 o'clock, contour at noon, volume at noon. Then LeCab 2, but I can't quite remember which impulses I used. I'm on my laptop, and all that stuff is on my desktop (and the movers came and got that yesterday)
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Music For The Dead Death, doom, black, grind, and more. New albums out from Eternal Oblivion and Devourer in the Mist.

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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:14 am 
 

And both were recorded on a flying V with an old Ibanez V5 bridge pickup.
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Music For The Dead Death, doom, black, grind, and more. New albums out from Eternal Oblivion and Devourer in the Mist.

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Goran
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:32 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:44 am 
 

Cheers, will try that out sometime.

Also, for leads, do you use Reapers default chorus and delay Vst's, or do you know of some freeware beauties?

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Revan_Wolfheart
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:53 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:10 am 
 

Wow, thanks for the advice guys.

So he actually recorded his guitar using a headset mic? I thought he just used it for vocals.

I think I'll get my hands on a sm57, simply because I'll need to get it at some point anyway for recording, but I may try recording my amp with my headset just to see what it sounds like.

That is a pretty good tone you got on those tracks Goran, but I thought that you weren't supposed to use a cabinet when going for a black metal tone, but I think I'll definitely start using a tube screamer plugin.

Thanks for the clips and the set-ups Infinite, neither of those tones are quite what I'm looking for, but they're pointing in the right direction, and that's really all I want: suggests when it comes to VST's and analog recording and some starting points to work from. I also looked too your VST thread for the tubescreamer Vst.

So does anyone have any opinions on Peavey bandits, lo-fi filters/plugins and/or using an HM-2 for black metal purposes, or any other pedal besides a metalzone?

Thanks again for the help everyone.

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Goran
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:32 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:10 am 
 

Revan_Wolfheart wrote:
That is a pretty good tone you got on those tracks Goran, but I thought that you weren't supposed to use a cabinet when going for a black metal tone, but I think I'll definitely start using a tube screamer plugin.

Thanks. You'll always want to use a cabinet (a real amp without a cab won't give much sound, either!), unless you aim for the most frostbitten sound ever.
Better off with using mic placements that give a hollow, fizzy tone. And don't EQ it 'perfectly' like you would modern metal, especially in the mids.[/quote]

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Revan_Wolfheart
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:53 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:43 am 
 

Here's an update

Recording with my headset worked much better then expected, I ended up getting a cheap metalzone off ebay and I think it's pretty decent, I'm currently trying to get my hands on an HM-2 just for the sake of experimentation. I'm still using vsts, but it's good to have knowledge about both analogue and digital recording, but there are still some questions left unanswered:

What's so good about Peavey Bandits and does anyone have an opinion on lo-fi pedals/plugins?

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FearTheNome
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:41 am
Posts: 372
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:54 pm 
 

Quote:
What's so good about Peavey Bandits


It's not so much that they're good as that a lot of early black and death metal bands used them so they have that characteristic sound. Crank everything to 10, put an HM-2 in front=instant swedeath chainsaw tone.

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4919
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:36 pm 
 

Peavey Bandits and Roland Cubes have tones that are very good for shaping during recording.

Right now, I wouldn't bother with pedals. If you're looking to record using anything but VSTs, the best $100 you can spend at a time, in order, are:

A recording interface (there are a few, check reviews, they're all more or less the same besides the software)
A Shure SM57 (an investment that you'll never outgrow)
A used Peavey Bandit or Roland Cube (buy used, they're expensive new and some of the older ones are better).
A used bass, Ibanez SDGR or BC Rich whatever are decent and can be found for around $100. It'll sound a lot better than MIDI bass synths if you're looking for a less digital sound.

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Revan_Wolfheart
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:53 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:54 am 
 

Thanks for all the feedback so far guys.

In light of new evidence here's the new impasse I've found myself at:

Peavey Bandit 112 'black box/silver stripe edition' the price is $220 and I'm waiting on a quote for mailing, luckily the sender is in my state.

Roland Cube 15xl for $80 plus postage, something gives me the feeling it won't be a good choice since it doesn't seem to be loud enough for gigs.

Roland Cube 30 $185 more postage, seems loud enough and older is better right?

Roland cube 30x $200 plus the eternal law of so far unknown postage costs

And finally A cube 20xl for $110, again doesn't seem loud enough.

There's also a few Peavey 'teal stripe' Pytten models going around, but they're all sitting around the $400 area

Any suggestions before I sink some money into a new amp purchase?

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4919
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:09 pm 
 

Holy shit, $220 for a Peavey Bandit? Where are you located? You should be able to find a used one at a local Guitar Center or equivalent store that sells used gear for around $150, give or take some. Around 2006 I know I would usually see them for $100-120 in decent condition in stores, though $150 is about what I'd expect now. If you don't have to add postage on those, then don't - it costs a lot of money compared to what you're spending on the amp and the extra $30-50 that it costs to ship that amp is a huge portion of your budget.

I prefer this generation, since it's what I have and I'm used to, nothing wrong with the other generations though.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PEAVEY-BANDIT-1 ... 35c22846df

I missed it earlier - about Varg's recording of Filosofem, he wrote about the gear he used on his website, and I wrote up what I knew about it on this forum at least once (use the search function to find posts by me containing either "varg" or "burzum" in this forum).

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Revan_Wolfheart
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:53 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:56 am 
 

It seems that Peavey Bandits never migrated down to the great southern land while they were in production, I've checked local stores, the only second hand Peavey was a studio pro for $450, there's no way in hell I'll ever buy it. The $220 Bandit is actually $245 with shipping costs, a local store quoted me $220 on a Roland Cube 20XL.

Yeah I read into the Burzum stuff and went through his articles and interview where he miss spelt 'Peavey' all the time. I must admit, I haven't been able to find the Burzum song that has the Marshall on it, I'm guessing he meant he used the Marshall for all the double tracks on the songs. I've been able to get the Filosofem sound, but I don't really like it - to inflexible, I mean who really wants to just copy someone else's tone without putting their input into it?

In terms of new opportunities there's a Studio Pro 110 for $160 plus postage which will probably be $20 : http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/isaacs/g ... 010601817#

Someone's also just opened up bidding on a 'teal stripe' edition in my area, the bidding's starting at $200 and I can do a local pickup.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Peavey-Bandi ... 500wt_1156

So should I jump on the signature 'teal stripe'?

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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:05 am 
 

In my humble opinion, it's completely unnecessary to invest money in new material if you don't plan to do a professional-like recording, for example in a studio. If the music is not intended to be spread or commercialized, I suggest you try to do your best with what you already have.

Investing money in new material can be disappointing, because the recorded result is not proportional to the amount of money invested.

People who play music as a mere hobby often end up having lots of expensive hardware material, but never using it.
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