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DunkelGus
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:03 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:05 pm 
 

Guys, has anyone here tried using Ron Jarzombek's 12-tone system? What are your thoughts on it? Has it been of any use to you?
I recently discovered it and I though it was great, but although it fits very well in Blotted Sciende, I'm not so convinced on its use on more conventional music.

For those of you who don't know it, here it is:
http://www.ronjarzombek.com/rj12tone.html

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4699
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:24 pm 
 

It is interesting, but not really useful for anything except Jarzombek's style. Jarzombek has always been way out there, and I don't think what he does would work out for anyone but him.

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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2238
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:28 pm 
 

Jeroen Thesseling has worked on it, even constructing basses to fit that approach. You can hear stuff like that in some mideastern music.
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DunkelGus
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:03 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:52 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
It is interesting, but not really useful for anything except Jarzombek's style. Jarzombek has always been way out there, and I don't think what he does would work out for anyone but him.


Yeah, I thought so... I think I'll stick to more conventional methods of writing.

The system is also used in this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jkXO5alGvE

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DunkelGus
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:03 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:53 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
Jeroen Thesseling has worked on it, even constructing basses to fit that approach. You can hear stuff like that in some mideastern music.


In which projects has Jeroen used it?

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Marras
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:21 am
Posts: 39
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:47 am 
 

I haven't ever heard of those guys mentioned, but recently I've been reading about that 12-tone system. If this Jarzombek really figured that 12-note circle thing (where only the intervals matter) by himself, it's quite funny, because it's been known in modern classical music since the 50's in an almost indentical way. A friend of mine recommended two books for me when I thinked out loud how to get new perspectives in composing (extreme) metal. I think that would be quite fitting as many black and death metal songs already are quite atonal. Still haven't really made anything using that. Probably I'll use in some black metal songs with some middle parts when the rest of the song is composed more traditionally. Also, in classical music perspective, chords are also really important in this technique, but with distorted guitar they get quickly too messy. So that would mean splitting the chord between several guitars and using them a bit like a traditional string section. Which would require much more studying, as my musical theory barely reaches knowing the formation of basic chords and reading notes...

By the way, the Finnish term for 12-tone technique in fact translates as "group theory", which is borrowed from mathematics, and I think is more fitting than that 12-tone thingy as one can compose atonal music without any theory or deeper analysing. Not that it really matters.

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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2238
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:49 am 
 

DunkelGus wrote:
Kveldulfr wrote:
Jeroen Thesseling has worked on it, even constructing basses to fit that approach. You can hear stuff like that in some mideastern music.


In which projects has Jeroen used it?


Not metal for sure. He worked on this stuff with mideastern music and stuff like that, but I doubt he really recorded something to make it public. I know he has a bass constructed for that sole purpose and maybe he used it for the Ensemble Salazar thing.
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Forestfather in Facebook- Some sort of black metal.
Get Forestfather's new album 'Hereafter' here!
Kveldulf's various stuff in Soundcloud
Vahşet in ReverbNation - Death metal

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triggerhappy
Veteran

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:56 am
Posts: 2945
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:00 am 
 

Jute Gyte uses 12-tone technique in the song "The Irreality of the Past". It's found here (track 6): http://jutegyte.bandcamp.com/album/isolation

So it's quite possible for it to be used effectively in black metal as well.
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Under_Starmere wrote:
Veracs wrote:
Thats a shitload of Gargoyle mp3's you have on that thing I'm sure.
That's all Crick's iPod accepts. GB = Gargobytes.

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jute
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:30 am
Posts: 146
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:58 pm 
 

I am unfamiliar with Jarzombek, but judging by the OP's link he seems comfortable with Schoenberg's 12-tone technique (which dates from the 1920s, not the '50s). Composers invariably adapt this technique to suit their needs, as Jarzombek has evidently done. The technique itself is not genre-specific and can be applied to metal as well as anything else. Given the high level of chromaticism in metal the effect can be idiomatic.

The OP questioned the effectiveness of 12-tone technique in "conventional music". It's worth noting that the soundtrack to the classic film Rebel Without a Cause is 12-tone.
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2238
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:11 pm 
 

Reading better, I confused the concept. Maybe Spiral Architect has some of this harmonic approach inmersed into songwriting, the songs are a living hell to transcript.
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Forestfather in Facebook- Some sort of black metal.
Get Forestfather's new album 'Hereafter' here!
Kveldulf's various stuff in Soundcloud
Vahşet in ReverbNation - Death metal

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Something_Inside
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:43 am
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:49 pm 
 

Im nowhere near good enough to play the kind of shit this guy in the videos on that page linked in the first ccomment is playing, and reading the page over a few times, I have to say, barely understand all this. But I picked up a guitar and tried using the last thing he says which is pick a note, and go up and down ("left and right" on his diagram) the scale. I chose a note, played it as a chord (tremolo picked at around 150bpm) and then went to the chord version I knew of the next note on the scale. then up another one, then like he says on the site, back down the chords i'd already played to a final chord which was the one down from the chord I started on. And it sounded pretttty damn good, this guy is onto something I think.

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