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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:53 pm 
 

Jesus, some of you are going way over the top about drum software. This is ridiculous. Whether you like drum software or not, inthykingdom has a very valid point. And I'm in a similar situation: With all the music I write, there is absolutely no possible way I could record as much as I do if I used a real drummer. If I played the drums myself, it would take me years to be able to play some of the stuff I write. Drum software allows me to continue writing and recording music as much and as often as I do. And unless George Kollias suddenly volunteers to track all my drums for free, I have no choice but to continue doing so for the next few years while I learn to play drums myself. Because - especially for some of the stuff I'm writing recently - it would take a drummer near his caliber to suffice. If that bothers you, then don't listen to my music.

Now before anyone gets their panties in a knot, let me re-emphasize this as simply as possible. I am not saying drum software sounds better than acoustic drums. Not at all. However, I would prefer properly done software drums over sloppy acoustic drums. "raw" adds character. "Chaotic" adds atmosphere. "sloppy" just sounds like shit.

Somefella has a very good point - just because it's black metal is no excuse for shitty playing. Black metal is best when it's raw and chaotic, not shitty and sloppy. And if you don't like drum triggers I certainly hope you don't listen to any technical death metal.

What ever happened to just enjoying the music?
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somefella
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:18 pm 
 

Nameless_Rites wrote:
somefella wrote:
"but the fact is that in black metal, sloppy playing can reinforce the ambiance (stressing a feeling of powerlessness)"


This is a mindset which so many bedroom black metal acts have, which is a horrible and flat out wrong way to approach any kind of music. In SOME cases the songs are good enough for the listener to look past that, but no one should ever think that being a shitty musician is alright because "It's black metal". It is possible to be chaotic without being an amateur. I once saw some horrible local band apologise to the audience for playing like shit, but then they also added "but who cares, it's black metal".

oh dear god.


Any black metal band that apologizes to their audience for anything deserves a 12-gauge blast to their collective groins.


Actually, at the standard they presented to a paying audience, they damn well should have apologized and bought us all drinks for making us sit through that. Calling yourself 'black metal" and thinking it's some elite reason to play like a monkey and feel cool about it is bad and you should feel bad.
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KFD
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:45 pm 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
With all the music I write, there is absolutely no possible way I could record as much as I do if I used a real drummer. If I played the drums myself, it would take me years to be able to play some of the stuff I write.


Exactly! You would be forced to operate a selection, to select quality and difficulty over quantity and easiness! And that would make your music more interesting to the ears of black metal listeners like me.


Quote:
However, I would prefer properly done software drums over sloppy acoustic drums. "raw" adds character. "Chaotic" adds atmosphere. "sloppy" just sounds like shit.


I'm not saying I prefer anything... That was not the point. Sloppy sounds like someone who is depressed, sick, drunk, drugged, unable to walk straight. And black metal is a subgenre inclined towards sickness and escaping reality. I mean true black metal, not blackened technical death metal or "war metal" (those are crossover subgenres).


Quote:
And if you don't like drum triggers I certainly hope you don't listen to any technical death metal.


No I don't! I hate death metal, I hate modern metal! Aarseth and Vikernes have said everything that was to say about the evolution of this shitty subgenre some 20 years ago. Do you want me to just repeat what they said in interviews? Or do you consider that any musician from a black/death crossover recent band is as qualified as them about the topic?
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KFD
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:51 pm 
 

somefella wrote:
bla bla


You're a death metalhead. You don't understand anything about black metal. Neither does anyone from your country.


Quote:
oh dear god.


Plus you're a Christian.

I don't know why you keep posting about topics you don't understand. I didn't say sloppy drumming is cool. Read again.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:59 pm 
 

DarkWolfXV wrote:
I dont know why anyone could hate triggers.
Anything ultra fast, anything above 250 bpm can not be recorded clearly without triggers (Assuming double bass 16ths). You ain't gonna do that, at least with the kick drum. Natural snare is doable with piccolo snares. From 200 bpm-ish and on the clarity suffers and it gets more difficult to get a clear kick sound without triggers. Its not like triggers make you play faster. Plus if you are sloppy it is very easy to hear, so its not like using triggers takes no skill. Using triggers lets you go further in extremity and creativity.


Are you basically saying that Hellhammer's drumming is "clearer" on Wolf's Lair Abyss than on De Mysteriis dom Sathanas?

Did 1993-1999 era Marduk drummers use triggers?

I don't think so.

I hate triggers because they sound like a fucking drum machine. Why use an acoustic drumset then? Use an electronic one.
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infinitenexus
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:01 am 
 

I don't write music for listeners. I write it for me. I write it because it is my passion and what I love most. And I think you misunderstand; being forced to use real drums wouldn't make me put out less but better music. It would force me to put out basically nothing but slow doom metal for years until I was able to play a blast beat myself. It would make my music worse, much worse. I'm not going to avoid writing and recording fast music - which is what I love - because I don't have access to a drummer good enough to play some of my faster songs.

All that being said, I'm not much of a black metal musician. In fact, out of all the music I write, I think my black metal is probably the worst, although I have gotten some good reviews on my recent BM album. To me, black metal is a very DIY sort of music, and I think electronic drums and drum software can fit perfectly into there, if done right. The way my drums sound on my black metal will work for people who like Watain or Ondskapt or other modern black metal bands with better production, but for someone who likes old black metal, they'd probably hate it and say something like the clean production ruins everything.

And I've read plenty of interviews from Vikernes and Aarseth. Especially Vikernes, he seems to just hate anything that isn't raw black metal. Seems more like he's just trying to get attention. Just because he was an influential person in early black metal doesn't make his word law, though. There are many ways to write, play, and record black metal all while staying true to the original idea of black metal - which was essentially a rebellion against the music of the time. Plus I don't care what Vikernes says, because I think he's a complete douchebag that writes shitty music.

But yeah if you hate death metal and modern metal in general, we'll just have to agree to disagree then lol. I'm more of a death metal person anyways.
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KFD
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:17 am 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
I don't write music for listeners. I write it for me. I write it because it is my passion and what I love most. And I think you misunderstand; being forced to use real drums wouldn't make me put out less but better music. It would force me to put out basically nothing but slow doom metal for years until I was able to play a blast beat myself. It would make my music worse, much worse. I'm not going to avoid writing and recording fast music - which is what I love - because I don't have access to a drummer good enough to play some of my faster songs.


Sorry to repeat myself, but that's why I recommend you hire a session drummer. You will certainly find a fast/technical enough drummer if you pay.
I said in a previous post that drum programming fakes the game because it allows some people to access unhuman drumming skills without substantial effort or investment. That's technologic democratisation.


Quote:
Especially Vikernes, he seems to just hate anything that isn't raw black metal.


No. He mentions a lot of electronic music, classical, folk, ambiant, and also old school death metal and soft rock. I think he doesn't listen to black metal anymore now.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:26 am 
 

And there we get to the crux of it again: KFD wants people to pay him for his elite shitty bedroom black metal skills and is mad that people being able to competently program their own drums is taking away some of his possible clientele.
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somefella
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
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Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:26 am 
 

KFD wrote:
somefella wrote:
bla bla


You're a death metalhead. You don't understand anything about black metal. Neither does anyone from your country.


Quote:
oh dear god.


Plus you're a Christian.

I don't know why you keep posting about topics you don't understand. I didn't say sloppy drumming is cool. Read again.


:lol: I'm getting the heat from a guy who can't play or mix to save his life and wonders why people don't spend money on it. As for your unwarranted remark on my nationality, a black metal act from around here with PROGRAMMED drums has been picked up by 2 labels from YOUR country while your 2 sad excuses for bands remain on your shitty mail order that you call a label.

"but the fact is that in black metal, sloppy playing can reinforce the ambiance (stressing a feeling of powerlessness)"

You said exactly this. The reason you think I don't understand is because it's you who doesn't understand music at all, and refuse to take the advice of the multiple posters who have repeatedly berated your inane posts about how flailing like a monkey on a REAL drumset and a bad mix is the only real kind of black metal there is(and to actually expect money out of it). infinitenexus probably hasn't released a single thing with real drumming on it but I can tell you that from any point of view that his material shits all over yours regardless of genre, because it's done PROPERLY.
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KFD
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Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:41 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
And there we get to the crux of it again: KFD wants people to pay him for his elite shitty bedroom black metal skills and is mad that people being able to competently program their own drums is taking away some of his possible clientele.


I'm not the only drummer in the world, and my technical/production skills are far from perfect, but when it comes to true/old-school black metal, yeah, you can count on me.


somefella, don't waste your time answering me.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:42 am 
 

Course not, from now on. It's like teaching complex differentiation to a snail. Nice cop out by the way. Just like all your other posts, it proves whatever I've said to be right.
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KFD
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:54 am 
 

Nameless_Rites wrote:
Drum machine black metal: it sounds like some friendless suburban adolescent heard Burzum, Xasthur, Shining etc and decided to do something that "sounded like that". He was the only kid at his high school who liked black metal, he didn't know a drummer or know how to play, so he threw some shit together on his computer. Wow, another "me-too!" template artist who didn't have the dedication to go all the way for their art! Burzum killed for his music, you couldn't even be bothered to hire a session musician!


I completely second this post. Thanks, you described the phenomenon better than I did.
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Evil_Johnny_666
Reigning king of the night

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:54 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:04 am 
 

KFD wrote:
The ambiance doesn't necessarily have to be grim, it can be just raw and wild, or confuse and dreamy. Professional precision tends to create a clinical, sterile, death metallish atmosphere. In true black metal you have to guess the notes and the hits, that's what enhances the mysterious aura.


Huh? What's all the deal with the SOUND of a real drum if you think having to guess the hits is a nice touch? Honestly, real drums with a shitty quality could very well rather be programmed drumming. Anyway, have you ever listened to some Bathory? Or Hellveto?

''Professional precision'' creates a clinical and sterile atmosphere if you want it to sound that way. Hell, A Blaze in the Northern Sky was recorded at Creative Studios which was a quite professional studio which Peaceville made them go to. The album is actually very well recorded, the just added a lot of effects, reverb and all. Every instrument is easily heard, they are all very defined. Just listen to the drums, very clear, it's obvious they were very well recorded. And I really like the sound of the album, it sounds fucking COLD. It's definitely one of the coldest black metal albums I heard and it's all professionally recorded. Hell, I think the album wouldn't have nearly the same charm (and cold sound) for me if it had the same sound as Transilvanian Hunger. Another hint at the quality of the recording: the bass isn't hard to hear and sounds pretty good.

Black metal doesn't need to sound like crap, you just need to know how to record. Well, it doesn't need to sound very well either. I'd say it's a case by case thing. Old Waind's first album/demo is some of the coldest black metal I heard and it doesn't sound particularly good. Although they did have a much better recording for Scaling Coldness and they really didn't loose much of the coldness. It sounds about as cold, it just has a different feel and that's all there is to it. It depends on what you're aiming for exactly.

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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:25 am 
 

Ok, I'll answer both examples you quoted:

Bathory
Good example: the first Bathory featured sloppily-played real drums. Did anyone ever complaint about the sloppy drums and boycott this album? I don't think so, and quite everyone today agrees about this album being a cornerstone of "first wave" black metal.
The drums on the second album are more ambiguous, I discussed that on a dedicated thread so I won't here. And when it comes to Under the Sign of the Black Mark, the drums were programmed. That's one of the reasons why I like this album less than the two previous ones. In fact, I rarely listen to UtSotBM.

Darkthrone
A Blaze in the Northern Sky featured too much death metal influences for my liking. That's why I largely prefer Under a Funeral Moon and Transilvanian Hunger. In fact, I rarely listen to ABitNS.

(But don't get me wrong, from an objective point of view it's a great album, as influential as UtSotBM)
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Nameless_Rites
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:21 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:24 am 
 

This debate is getting a little too heated. Although I never use drum software for anything, I use my V-drums for a direct line in recording on rough demos because it's easier than micing up. For the final draft, I always use real drums though. It's not some question of ideological black metal purity(I don't really play black metal anyway), it's just that it doesn't sound as good as the real thing. If you're going to do anything at all, why not do it to the fullest? Can anyone answer me this?
Otherwise, you're just half-assing it and people can tell as much when they listen to the music. They'll go listen to something else. If you're cutting corners because you can't afford the time or money to do better, maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board until you've got the means to do it right. Save up for some real gear. In the meantime, work on refining your songwriting because most of what I've heard from all these clips people are posting isn't that impressive.

And to whoever was complaining about needing 8-10 mics for a drum set: you can get a perfectly good sound with 3-4 mics. Google "the Glyn Johns drum recording method" As long as your overhead pair is solid(I use two Shure SM-81s), you can trigger the bass and throw your guitar mic under the snare. You do have a guitar mic, don't you?

PS: You can get a cheap but decent desktop interface with four mic preamps for under $200. Look into the Tascam US-1800 or Akai EIE.

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KFD
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Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:29 am 
 

Nameless_Rites wrote:
You do have a guitar mic, don't you?


You mean a guitar pickup extracted from an electric guitar?
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InThyKingdom
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am
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Location: Bulgaria
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:41 am 
 

@Nameless_Rite , no I don't have guitar mic :) And sorry I would even scale the number of the mic needed for a descent drum sound. No one argues about well done real drums > click click ones. Said it thousand times and it is not just me. Just it is funny how people call themselves TRUE and BLACK if their records sound naive and they are looking for excuse for it because it is a black metal.
It is hard to save cash for anything when in the country I live the average salary is 200 USD and the prices for gasoline,food,gear are higher than in USA for examples. I'm not looking for excuse - it is hobby and I just try to do it better and better with my next attempt (what i hear from the past 14 years it happened and that makes me happy!).

@KFD Dude first Bathory is recorded 1983-1984. Sure that pretty much every 1st attempt is naive and can be sloppy. But I don't see his later releases to stay on the naive level, just because it is cool, true or whatever. Recording with crap quality is an excuse for not trying to improve your skills on next level.
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Last edited by InThyKingdom on Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:42 am 
 

Do you mean that were was absolutely no metal album recorded with professionally-produced drumming around 1984? There was at least Slayer's first album.

Do you mean that Bathory album's production quality increased in time? What about Octagon's production then?

If you lack money, then try to find a cheaper recording device than a computer equipped with an external soundcard and expensive recent softwares/plug-ins. Or forget about the idea of a professional release, because as I already said, the release's quality will depend on the funds invested.
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InThyKingdom
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:19 am 
 

Dude,
My PC with the cheap low end M-audio costs about 550$. And it was not upgraded for 3 years. With it I get everything I need to get descent production.
What about Octagon? Do you hear any crap drum sound on it or bad guitar tone or crap mixing?
About the expensive soft. Sorry to say it but I'm still evaluating the REAPER free periods. And it's price is 67$... Way cheaper than any recording device that would give me option to record 4 or 8 tracks?
Also there are tons of free software that you can use. A friend of mine gave me his addictive drums he bought, because he gave up of music.
I'm using cheap t-bone mic and ART tube preamp both with the pop filter had price 87$. As you can see the gear i have works not bad for me at the moment. So I doubt I can get something better at lower price.
Sometimes happen a band from my region to record demo at my home or to mix their demo, so with the money i get from it I buy what I need. If you are curious about the price: 20 EUR on song.. or 30 EUR if i have to care for the drums to be done with the mouse. Recorded already many other bands for free just because I like what they do, so it is not always done for the cash - it is for the idea and for the love of music. That's all.

Well about the pro looking final product. Hard to afford it, but still with the help of friends of mine it is doable. And the quality can beat any of yours releases for sure - trust me!
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KFD
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:41 am 
 

Ah ah. I touched the right spot. Man, the last time I bought a computer was back in 2004. It's dead now, so I've been given for free by family members all my other computers. None of them was designed for recording music, and I never bought an external soundcard. I've been using the same multitrack software (pirated version given for free) since 2004.


InThyKingdom wrote:
What about Octagon? Do you hear any crap drum sound on it or bad guitar tone or crap mixing?


Yes. Just listened to it: quite bad.


Quote:
About the expensive soft. Sorry to say it but I'm still evaluating the REAPER free periods. And it's price is 67$... Way cheaper than any recording device that would give me option to record 4 or 8 tracks?


Here's two used 4-track recorders in the same price range:
http://fr.audiofanzine.com/enregistreur ... 68628.html
http://fr.audiofanzine.com/studio-analo ... 30154.html


Quote:
I'm using cheap t-bone mic and ART tube preamp both with the pop filter had price 87$. As you can see the gear i have works not bad for me at the moment. So I doubt I can get something better at lower price.


I already said in another thread that you can get a decent drum tone with one single mic in the SM57's minimal price range (approximatively the same as your mic + preamp + pop filter).


Quote:
Sometimes happen a band from my region to record demo at my home or to mix their demo, so with the money i get from it I buy what I need. If you are curious about the price: 20 EUR on song.. or 30 EUR if i have to care for the drums to be done with the mouse.


Yeah that's decent prices, I would ask for about the same.


Quote:
Well about the pro looking final product. Hard to afford it, but still with the help of friends of mine it is doable. And the quality can beat any of yours releases for sure - trust me!


I didn't know you had bought a CD from my label, did you?
Or do you only judge without checking?

At least I'm not the only one who asks money for recording music here.

Edit: of course the money helps buying new gears or financing future releases.
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Last edited by KFD on Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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InThyKingdom
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am
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Location: Bulgaria
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:49 am 
 

Nope sorry, did not bought anything from your label. Just the music I like is not what your label releases. I saw the pictures of it, but when I'm talking about high quality I mean it. Soon (I hope) my 3rd Inspell's album will be out and it'll be 3 side fullcolor digipak. Do not want to talk much about it since it is not released yet but that's the plans so far and imo print quality is way higher.

Don't get what you find wrong with Octagon's sound??

P.S. I'm not asking for money :) If I like it I work on it free of charge. AT the end of the week a friend of mine will record vocals for a MA forum member and all is free оf charge, because supporting the good ideas is priceless for me!
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:11 am 
 

KFD wrote:

Sorry to repeat myself, but that's why I recommend you hire a session drummer. You will certainly find a fast/technical enough drummer if you pay.
I said in a previous post that drum programming fakes the game because it allows some people to access unhuman drumming skills without substantial effort or investment. That's technologic democratisation.
.



I'm not going to spend a ton of money hiring a session drummer just because you hate drum software. As I said earlier, if you have such a problem with drum software, then don't listen to my music. Problem solved.

Also, you used the word "democratisation" completely wrong in that sentence.

And lastly, you need to realize that just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't automatically make them wrong. You're just coming off as a massive douchebag.
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infinitenexus
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:14 am 
 

Nameless_Rites wrote:
And to whoever was complaining about needing 8-10 mics for a drum set: you can get a perfectly good sound with 3-4 mics. Google "the Glyn Johns drum recording method" As long as your overhead pair is solid(I use two Shure SM-81s), you can trigger the bass and throw your guitar mic under the snare. You do have a guitar mic, don't you?



Yep, I've looked it up. You can get a decent sound with 3-4 mics, and that's about it. Something good for black metal. You cannot get a truly modern professional sound with 3-4 mics, and that's the sort of sound I want. Thank you for the info though, that does sound better than I thought it would.

And *gasp* don't mention triggers! Dem's fightin words in here!
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KFD
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:15 am 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
I'm not going to spend a ton of money hiring a session drummer just because you hate drum software. As I said earlier, if you have such a problem with drum software, then don't listen to my music. Problem solved.


Of course!


Quote:
Also, you used the word "democratisation" completely wrong in that sentence.


Why? I meant: democratisation of high-skilled drumming through technology.


Quote:
And lastly, you need to realize that just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't automatically make them wrong. You're just coming off as a massive douchebag.


Well, sorry if my posts gave you this impression. I didn't mean to be disrespectful or constraining. Of course you're free to do whatever you want and to spend your money on computer hardware and softwares instead of hiring human musicians. I didn't feel like mentioning something so obvious.
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