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somefella
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Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:46 pm 
 

200 euros per fucking HOUR?! Dude, you must have a really young face irl, because you are def getting ripped off so bad.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:37 am 
 

DarkWolfXV wrote:
Also KFD, 200 euro per hour? What the fuck? In my city professional studios do stuff for 100 PLN a hour which is like 25 euro...



If you know any affordable professional studio equipped with metal/rock instruments around Paris, please let me know the details, 'cause I've been looking for months. I think the cheapest I've found was 40€/hour (+ mixing, + mastering 30€/track), but when I contacted them, their answer was like "if extreme metal = extreme right wing, WE DON'T DO THAT".

Of course I could go to a cheaper area, but then I would have to pay the trip and hotel. In any case, recording music in a professional manner is expensive. As I said, nobody complaints about paying a sound engineer for mixing or mastering, though it requires as much work as recording a drum track.

But anyway If you'd rather use pseudo-drums, it's fine for me, as long as I don't have to listen to your music ;)


Ah, we're in the sad world of free consumption...
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Rmind
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:47 am 
 

Maybe You're right, man, but admit, that this forum is mostly about amateur, beginning bands and musicians. I think that everyone of us has a lot of passion inside, and everything, but until we don't make money on our music we're mostly not able to spend it on making songs, and stuff.
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DarkWolfXV
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:08 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:51 am 
 

Around Paris then, I guess big city - big expenses, but in my fairly small city its still 25 euro a hour. Plus, I think you're expected to have your own gear.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:42 pm 
 

Rmind wrote:
Maybe You're right, man, but admit, that this forum is mostly about amateur, beginning bands and musicians. I think that everyone of us has a lot of passion inside, and everything, but until we don't make money on our music we're mostly not able to spend it on making songs, and stuff.


That's untrue. Plenty of users here have releases under their belt of definite professional quality, some with programmed drums and some otherwise. As long as you have good material that sounds good, that's all that matters. Tell Anaal Nathrakh that they aren't 'professional' enough for you because they used programmed drums. Or Meshuggah. While it's good to be curious about techniques and gear, don't forget that a solid song and tight playing is what makes something professional. If you get a monkey to play real drums, sure it's gonna be all natural and 'real' but it's still a natural sounding piece of crap. Worry more about doing a good job with what tools you have rather than risk doing a shitty job with all the best tools.

EDIT: Think of it this way. Even if you had lots of money and could hire Kevin Talley or Derek Roddy to drum on your release, if the rest of you are playing like shit or your songs suck(not saying it's the case though), then it doesn't matter, it's a bad release. If you use EZDrummer or Drumcore or something like that but with good songs and good performances, no one can say it's a bad piece of work, even if it doesn't gel with their tastes. Worry about the big picture, not the small components.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:45 pm 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY2e4qWJ8uE

my drums were recorded on my home gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REm3upDzq3w

everything recorded and mixed on my home gear.

you want me to just go do your drums for your material?
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KFD
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:55 pm 
 

DarkWolfXV wrote:
Around Paris then, I guess big city - big expenses, but in my fairly small city its still 25 euro a hour. Plus, I think you're expected to have your own gear.


Yeah, it's an important detail. I'm looking for an all-equipped studio, since I'm not able to move my own drumset and amp by myself. Besides, what would be the point going to a studio if I used the same equipment as at home? I expect the studio experience to offer far more possibilities than I already have, and that's why it's expensive.


Rmind wrote:
Maybe You're right, man, but admit, that this forum is mostly about amateur, beginning bands and musicians. I think that everyone of us has a lot of passion inside, and everything, but until we don't make money on our music we're mostly not able to spend it on making songs, and stuff.


1. How do you distinguish amateur and pro? I class as "pro" any factory-pressed CD, and the pressing costs a lot of money for sure. So do the mixing, mastering and artwork too (as I already mentioned), unless you do them yourself. Drum programming, multitrack recording and graphic design softwares are not free either, unless you download a crack or a subpar imitation. But anyway, you will still need a computer with a decent soundcard, which requires a lot of money too ("a lot of money" means at least 200 or 300€).
2. When a sound engineer works on your project, he doesn't ask if your project is popular or not: he just asks to be paid per hour or per track. Lady Gaga and an unknown band will pay the same fees if they go in the same studio in the same conditions.

Since this topic is about black metal, I maintain that the drums are the most difficult and expensive part of the recording process. You can do fine with a cheap mic, a cheap guitar and a cheap distortion; you can even skip the bass, because many underground black metal songs don't feature any bass line, or feature fake-bass guitar tracks. But unless you're Woods of Infinity, using a drum machine ruins the final result and ambiance.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:03 pm 
 

Oh yea I totally disagree with Rmind about this being a forum of mostly amateurs and begining bands.

But I racked that up to his own ignorance.
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Anubis211
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:56 pm
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Location: Romania
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:51 pm 
 

I for one couldn't care less about this subject . I take the song by overall (drum-machine or not) , if it sounds great then it's great.

P.S. : Drum-machine user (more like cheap asshole who couldn't afford to get drums)

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Rmind
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:34 pm 
 

Yeah, maybe I'm wrong, I'm new here, sorry.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:29 pm 
 

well it's no maybe about it. You were wrong. But it's okay, I knew you were new and didn't know. How else would have you other than checking out some links in the signatures.
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Nameless_Rites
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Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:21 am
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:19 am 
 

Yes, drum machines are fucking lame, especially in black metal. Makes you sound amateurish and "bedroomy".
Exception: Summoning

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InThyKingdom
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:54 pm 
 

Except that there are so bad recorded real drums on some bands, that the click - click ones sound way better.
Love when people complain since they can not manage to do it by themselves :)
recorded exclusively with software, no real amps neither drums
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:00 pm 
 

Sounds just like that. completely digitized music. Something I wouldn't give a second listen to, it's like that 'music' that's programmed as flip phoone ring tones.
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InThyKingdom
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:27 pm 
 

You know the right of everyone to have an opinion :)
For me and probably for other people it is amazing mix made at low price at home. For example I live in small town. Musicians hard to find - so what? I should give up because my drums are not live played or I should not go and support other bands with background behind me, because it is the way to express myself? I don't think so.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:28 pm 
 

Never said that. I shared my opinion on it.

You are gathering all kinds of information that others have said and I had not. I said I didn't care for drum machines, doesn't mean I haven't supported bands that used drum machines but my preference is I rather hear someone halfass attempt playing drums over a drum machine.

I didn't say stop creating music. You may do whatever you wish, but learn to take criticism regardless if it's constructive or not.

I think it sounds like something I would hear made for a ringtone for a phone that doesn't have much range for sound. That's my honest opinion and I really couldn't nor really wanted to look further past that since it's so digital sounding.
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InThyKingdom
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:44 pm 
 

I always accept constructive ideas and advice, but so far I don't see any. Just people complaining about the digital sound and how bad it is for the black metal. I would love if any of the critics just share his experience and give us what he thinks the real sound it is.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:45 pm 
 

I didn't offer any. I told you what I thought about what you posted. You just have to live with it. digital sounding stuff doesn't sound good for anything but pop music cause that's disposable drek anyway. But if you want some constructive ideas.... use real instruments miced out with real mics capturing real performances. If you can't afford or can't do that. That's not my problem. You do what you want, doesn't mean anyone has to like it.

In my experience, 'real' sound is micing out some guitar cabs and playing the guitar, playing the bass, and playing actual drums. Each one captured by a mic. The actual performance. Then mixing it all well enough to keep it raw and nasty but clear enough that you hear what is going on.

That's what I like, that's what I like to hear.

Digital stuff is digital stuff. Soulless.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:18 am 
 

I definitely agree with ShaolinLambKiller here.

@InThyKingdom, the sample you posted is not bad... It just sounds like Deftones with a fucking recent drum machine! Come on, we're talking about BLACK METAL in this thread!

Why can't people simply understand that digital production is not appropriate with the ambiance of the black metal subgenre?

It just doesn't fit, like playing reggae with a Metal Zone!
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:30 am 
 

Hell no one should use a metal zone, That thing makes nothing sound good. I tried it on a bass and the bass wanted to die... but that's a different story. hahaha.
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KFD
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:01 am 
 

I remember watching a video from a sales representative from Boss (I guess) who showed how to play blues with a Metal Zone ;)
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InThyKingdom
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Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am
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Location: Bulgaria
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:53 am 
 

The good musician can play whatever he wants on everything and it is a fact. The sample i gave was just an example for the sound, that descent sound is doable at home with software. As I said I'm agreed that real amps and acoustic drums is better for any rock genre, just don't get why some ppl can not swallow that if there is good enough music inside and the drums are not real = crap.
Here you can get some fresh digital sound:
Die Liebe Ist Tot - Slow Burn Eschaton
Does it lack atmosphere?
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:52 am 
 

It just reminds me of a demo to something that could be better.

A better musician doesn't have to argue the point of what they use is good or not.

Esp since the 2 people here that's responded with you haven't said digital drums= crap. I said I don't care for them. I'll continue you saying that for eternity. It's my taste and opinion and it's not going to change. I've always felt that and as time has gone on it's only further cemented that opinion.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:54 am 
 

@ITK
You have the right to like plastic bedroom clones, but denying that acoustic drums surpass pseudo drums on every degree would be plain stupid.

Furthermore, when using a drum machine or software, you completely skip the physical challenge of drumming. Programming pseudo drums only requires a good comprehension of the user's manual, you don't need to practise for months and years in order to reach a certain technical level. That's why it fakes the game.

To give you a personal example, the latest songs I've composed will feature drum tracks that are above my current level. Thus I'll need to practise for months and months before being able to record them. That's a challenge which implies progress.

Guys like you embody the decline of contemporary music through technologic democratisation.
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InThyKingdom
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:16 am 
 

@KFD Dude,
You don't even know me :) I'm playing drums since 1993. Have already tons of recorded stuff during the years. It is not about I don't want to practice or i skip it. Even now I'm playing drums with a band. But that doesn't mean I have the conditions to record anything of that or that I can afford myself to buy new drums. Pretty much same as your PC: it is slow, you don't have space but still keep using it due lack of cash.

Guys like me do not decline, guys like me use the advantage since I can not afford something better. And better means studio. I can borrow several of mics by someone and use 'em to get the real sound from the drums, but since the drums are older than you may be and in awful condition why should I do that? I would like to get some descent sound than a crap one.

Talking about the digital era. Why the hack you don't start recording back on tapes skipping all the digital stuff? Reminds me the silly interviews with Varg - when he declined the guitar due it is instrument used by "niggers" or the synthesizers because they were invented by "jew". Being that sort of "TRUE" is now more fashion than anything that had to do with black metal.

And black metal doesn't mean crap sound. And crap sound does not mean atmosphere.
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Rmind
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:09 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:16 am 
 

KFD wrote:
Why can't people simply understand that digital production is not appropriate with the ambiance of the black metal subgenre?


what about triggers? Correct me if I'm wrong, but imo it's digitalization of music. And Gorgoroth for ex. used triggers on their last album.
btw Behemoth recorded their second demo, 'The Record of The Northern Moon' using drum pads instead of real drums.
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Last edited by Rmind on Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:19 am 
 

I hate triggers.

Edit: I already mentioned them in an earlier post, please read back page 1.
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Last edited by KFD on Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:21 am 
 

InThyKingdom wrote:
Guys like me do not decline, guys like me use the advantage since I can not afford something better. And better means studio. I can borrow several of mics by someone and use 'em to get the real sound from the drums, but since the drums are older than you may be and in awful condition why should I do that? I would like to get some descent sound than a crap one.


Well, to be honest, learning that you are a long-experienced drummer makes your position even more absurd to my eyes. What's the problem with your drums? They're old? So what? Age doesn't alter the tone as far as I know. An old clumsy acoustic set will always sound better than the latest and most hi-tech software.


Quote:
Talking about the digital era. Why the hack you don't start recording back on tapes skipping all the digital stuff?


Yeah, I already evoked this project, I'd like to record a fully analogic tape, with no transistor distortion pedal, no numerical reverb etc. I might do it in the future, I have the means to do so. The only problem is about the vocals, because I generally use effects on them, but raw vocals could fit.
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InThyKingdom
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:40 am 
 

Well what I'm talking about is the quality. For a descent sound you need:
1. Nice drum set
2. Nice microphones 8-10 for a set with 3 FT.
3. Nice room - The room we r playing is 3.5x3 sq. m. It has solid walls and the natural reverb on it is huge :)
4. Nice multi-channel audio interface or sound card.
5. Mixer.

That is what I think I need to get descent sound. Let's see now how many of the needed stuff I own - hm 0 :) So see my point to use the software? Better overall quality vs sort of naive attempts to reach the sound I'm looking for.
Also software changed a lot during the years. I still remember the time when i used the integrated memory of my Creative SB to add to it 8 mb of SF. So expect soon or late to have problems finding which record has artificial and real sound (not like it is not doable now).
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:01 am 
 

This debate is biased because you fail to understand that we're talking about black metal here (it's in the thread's title). Black metal: not black/death crossover, not mallcore a la late Dimmu Burger or Evanescence, not melodeath, not deathcore or whichever modern metal subgenre. Black metal.

Just compare songs or works done by bands who used real drums and drum machines: I already quoted some examples (my own band, Absurd, Veles...). In 99% cases the real drums sound better than pseudo drums, regardless of the playing or production quality. My way of thinking only applies to black metal, of course I don't have the same criteria regarding UK dub or techno/trance. In fact I like pseudo drums in electronic music.

If you think Mütiilation's Black Millenium (a good example of how a drum machine can ruin an album) is better than Vampires of Black Imperial Blood (which features one song with a drum machine and the rest with real drums), then I won't add much more.

Edit: I understand that you prefer correctly-programmed pseudo drums to badly-played real drums, and I might share your preference in some cases too, but the fact is that in black metal, sloppy playing can reinforce the ambiance (stressing a feeling of powerlessness). Depressive black metal with professional and skilled drums? Does that sound depressive to you?
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InThyKingdom
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:28 am 
 

Ok listened to the songs. Tbh i don't like any of the drums recorded there. And this sound of drums doesn't help at all to the atmosphere to be grim (and frostbitten). You got my point right and nope I don't think that sloppy playing should be excuse for being black metal. I've listened to both cases, but the music behind the bad recorded drums was that amazed me, not the drums itself for being bad played.
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KFD
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:02 pm 
 

What are you talking about? Which band/songs?

The ambiance doesn't necessarily have to be grim, it can be just raw and wild, or confuse and dreamy. Professional precision tends to create a clinical, sterile, death metallish atmosphere. In true black metal you have to guess the notes and the hits, that's what enhances the mysterious aura.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:26 pm 
 

"but the fact is that in black metal, sloppy playing can reinforce the ambiance (stressing a feeling of powerlessness)"


This is a mindset which so many bedroom black metal acts have, which is a horrible and flat out wrong way to approach any kind of music. In SOME cases the songs are good enough for the listener to look past that, but no one should ever think that being a shitty musician is alright because "It's black metal". It is possible to be chaotic without being an amateur. I once saw some horrible local band apologise to the audience for playing like shit, but then they also added "but who cares, it's black metal".

oh dear god.
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InThyKingdom
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:27 pm 
 

@KFD Was talking about the Mutilation songs.

@somefella exactly! Said clear enough what I wanted to on my previous posts.
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DarkWolfXV
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:15 pm 
 

I dont know why anyone could hate triggers.
Anything ultra fast, anything above 250 bpm can not be recorded clearly without triggers (Assuming double bass 16ths). You ain't gonna do that, at least with the kick drum. Natural snare is doable with piccolo snares. From 200 bpm-ish and on the clarity suffers and it gets more difficult to get a clear kick sound without triggers. Its not like triggers make you play faster. Plus if you are sloppy it is very easy to hear, so its not like using triggers takes no skill. Using triggers lets you go further in extremity and creativity.
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Nameless_Rites
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:25 pm 
 

Drum machine black metal: it sounds like some friendless suburban adolescent heard Burzum, Xasthur, Shining etc and decided to do something that "sounded like that". He was the only kid at his high school who liked black metal, he didn't know a drummer or know how to play, so he threw some shit together on his computer. Wow, another "me-too!" template artist who didn't have the dedication to go all the way for their art! Burzum killed for his music, you couldn't even be bothered to hire a session musician!

In other types of music it would be acceptable, but black metal, being built around a raw, feral, atavistic atmosphere, does not lend itself well to laptop rock shortcuts.

This is the sort of thing Old Dirty Bastard would have called "slackin on your mackin cause raw's what you're lackin"

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Nameless_Rites
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:31 pm 
 

DarkWolfXV wrote:
I dont know why anyone could hate triggers.
Anything ultra fast, anything above 250 bpm can not be recorded clearly without triggers (Assuming double bass 16ths). You ain't gonna do that, at least with the kick drum. Natural snare is doable with piccolo snares. From 200 bpm-ish and on the clarity suffers and it gets more difficult to get a clear kick sound without triggers. Its not like triggers make you play faster. Plus if you are sloppy it is very easy to hear, so its not like using triggers takes no skill. Using triggers lets you go further in extremity and creativity.


I don't really like the sound of triggers, but I will admit that it's hard to hear what you're playing live without them. In studio with close micing and careful mixing it can be done (Dave Lombardo), but I didn't trigger live at first and even with this one club that did a nice soundboard recording of our set, I couldn't hear a fucking thing of them.

Just... don't use that high pitched ticka ticka ticka sound. It's called a "bass drum", it shouldn't be the highest pitch on the kit. Tasteful triggers with a bit of low end resonance are better.

I also hate it when totally non-extreme bands use bass triggers for slow, warm music. There's no fucking excuse for groups like Tiamat, Celestial Season, Katatonia etc to trigger their bass drums but they all did.

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InThyKingdom
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Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:31 pm 
 

ROFL :D :D :D

Sry... smile is not evil!

:x :x :x
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Nameless_Rites
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:33 pm 
 

somefella wrote:
"but the fact is that in black metal, sloppy playing can reinforce the ambiance (stressing a feeling of powerlessness)"


This is a mindset which so many bedroom black metal acts have, which is a horrible and flat out wrong way to approach any kind of music. In SOME cases the songs are good enough for the listener to look past that, but no one should ever think that being a shitty musician is alright because "It's black metal". It is possible to be chaotic without being an amateur. I once saw some horrible local band apologise to the audience for playing like shit, but then they also added "but who cares, it's black metal".

oh dear god.


Any black metal band that apologizes to their audience for anything deserves a 12-gauge blast to their collective groins.

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DarkWolfXV
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:08 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:45 pm 
 

Well, for slower genres like doom or traditional metal, then yes, I much prefer untriggered stuff. But when it comes to beating the shit out of skins at supersonic speeds, then triggers all the way.
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