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Goremasher
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:42 am
Posts: 167
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:50 pm 
 

I'm looking a Krank Chadwick 50 watt. Sounds good to me. But i was wonderin ghow loud a 50 watt tube is. Loud enough for practice over drums?

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:41 pm 
 

is that all you plan to do? just use it for practice? It might be loud enough for over drums depending on how hard and fast that guy is playing. but if you expect to play shows with it you are out of luck.
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:10 pm 
 

Live:
If everything is played through the PA (if the amp is miked), then it's more than enough.
If not, then it's a bit harder to tell. Logically, it should be enough, but it depends on the venue.

It also depends on the speaker on it. Is it a combo?
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Goremasher
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:47 pm 
 

Its a head

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:54 pm 
 

What cab are you going to play it through?
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Goremasher
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Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:42 am
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:14 pm 
 

Ill probably get a cab made for whatever head I get.
But whats the difference bewtween single and dule rectafier mesas?

And whats the differnce between Peavey 6506 and 6505+
Is it just the plus has 2 channels?

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:54 pm 
 

I don't know much about Mesa, but the Peavey 6505 is a two channel amp that shares the same EQ as opposed to the 6505+ which has separate EQ for both channels as well as one extra pre-amp tube.
But none of those amps are 50 watts. The thing with 50 watt heads are that you can crank them to the limit and they will sound great, which you can't really do with +100 watt heads since they will become too loud.

Anyway, take a look here:
http://www.peavey.com/6505/
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Goremasher
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:08 pm 
 

Oh ok.
Yeah I know theyre not 50 watts. I'm trying to figure out which tube amp I want. I want to get one and stick with it since it cost so god damn much.
Need to see if i want 6505 or 6505+
I'm going for a thrash, Trivium guitar sound so yeah.

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Chainsaw Omega
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:43 pm
Posts: 95
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:04 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
is that all you plan to do? just use it for practice? It might be loud enough for over drums depending on how hard and fast that guy is playing. but if you expect to play shows with it you are out of luck.


Wrong.

I use A Marshall DSL 50 through an Emperor 4x12, and I have NEVER had to go past 12 o clock on the volume knob, and I have done everything from basement gigs to full-size venues with it. In a small room without a PA, it is more than loud enough, and if you are playing at a larger venue, most, if not all actual venues have a PA system and your cab gets mic'd, so even if you are playing a stadium, you will be heard.

As for Mesa, I can tell you that they have additional tubes called rectifier tubes in them. I do not know the purpose since I have never been a fan of the Mesa tone, so I have never looked into it.

As for 5150 and variants, what Porman said.

If you are going for the Trivium guitar tone, the 5150 or any of its variants is what you want.

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:51 am 
 

Out of the hundreds of shows I've played most of the time the guitar was never miced out so I never consider that as an option ever. So it's not wrong, it's correct if you are depending on an outside source to be heard aside from your head and cab. So sorry, you are infact wrong as well.
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:56 am 
 

From what I've seen in other forums, I'd say there are mixed opinions, but not so much about volume. More on the characteristics of the distortion. I suggest you look at a forum that are mainly for guitars, amps and such. You will probably get a much better answer there, more pure facts.
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doktersatan
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 183
Location: Amsterdam
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:45 am 
 

yeah my 60 watt fireball has no problems whatsoever cutting through live. granted I don't exactly play stadiums and stuff :P

50 watt tube power is a lot. krank it up to 10 throw a noise gate in front and start rocking. (4x12 cab IS reccomended for larger gigs, but you can make do with a 2x12 as well.. just dont EQ out the mids like oh so many metal guitarists do, the mids will be what most people are hearing.

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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:07 am 
 

I wonder about some of you, if you actually know how loud a 50 watt amp can be - Especially a tube amp.


Okay, to double your volume, you need 10 times the watts. A 100 watt amp is twice as loud as a 10 watt amp. it's only a bit louder than a 50 watt amp. Especially if you have a tube amp, a 50 watt head through some good speakers is LOUD. Your speakers are going to make a ton of difference also, mainly due to their sensitivity. Eminence Wizards have a 103 dB sensitivity - that is fucking loud. I built a 2X12 cab a while ago and put two of those in there, and the volume I can get with a 5-8 watt homemade tube amp would blow your mind. Seriously, people highly underestimate the volume of amps, especially tube amps. You can easily play damn near anywhere with a 50 watt head. I've played live with a 20 watt tube head, and it did fantastically well. I initially had the volume pretty much maxed, and I dialed it down to about 7 or 8 to blend better.

For the record, my old 120 watt tube head through a 4X12 cab registered over 132dB - that's obscenely loud. Yes, I measured it. Yes, that is literally painfully loud. And yes, playing some Aborted riffs, it's a lot of fucking fun :-D

Another thing on tube amps: First off, if it's rated at 50 watts, that's not a definite number. Amplifier manufacturers like to round things to nice even numbers. Depending on the output tubes, that 50 watt head could put out 40 or as much as 60 watts, clean. Which leads me to my next little tidbit of fun information: A 100 watt tube amp is rated to produce 100 watts of clean power. Clean power. So what do we do? We crank the shit out of them, beyond clean output, until the power tubes are distorting also. If you dime a 5150 head, it's not going to put out 120 watts. It's going to be putting out notably more than that. Just as if you dime a 50 watt tube amp, I would not be surprised at all if it were putting out 60-65 watts. Through some good, efficient speakers, a 50 watt head is loud enough to give you hearing damage.

Just some food for thought, since I seem to love excessively long posts.
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:09 am 
 

doktersatan wrote:
50 watt tube power is a lot. krank it up to 10 throw a noise gate in front and start rocking. (4x12 cab IS reccomended for larger gigs, but you can make do with a 2x12 as well.. just dont EQ out the mids like oh so many metal guitarists do, the mids will be what most people are hearing.


Excellent advice.
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Element_man
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:37 am
Posts: 713
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:17 am 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
I wonder about some of you, if you actually know how loud a 50 watt amp can be - Especially a tube amp.

Okay, to double your volume, you need 10 times the watts. A 100 watt amp is twice as loud as a 10 watt amp. it's only a bit louder than a 50 watt amp. Especially if you have a tube amp, a 50 watt head through some good speakers is LOUD. Your speakers are going to make a ton of difference also, mainly due to their sensitivity.
Bam, there it is.
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:42 am 
 

infinitenexus: You pretty much explained in words, what I was thinking. :D

Remember that it doesn't apply to solid state amps though.
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Dragunov
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:34 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:14 pm 
 

50W is enough, get a cab with good speakers and you should be fine. Marshall 1960's are good, and can usually be found used for around $300 in my experience.
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Goremasher
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:42 am
Posts: 167
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:32 pm 
 

Sweet thanks guys
Now I just need to figure out how I'm gonna afford a half stack 6505 lol

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
Posts: 1417
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:04 pm 
 

You steal it!
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Chainsaw Omega
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:43 pm
Posts: 95
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:27 pm 
 

Speaking of a 1960 cab, I got one for sale for $200 if you are anywhere near the Chicago area.

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FenrirFangs
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:26 pm
Posts: 417
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:40 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
is that all you plan to do? just use it for practice? It might be loud enough for over drums depending on how hard and fast that guy is playing. but if you expect to play shows with it you are out of luck.


Dude are you serious? A 50 watt head? That's more than enough for a show un-mic'd. I've seen a lot of people use 30w heads un-mic'd in a medium-sized venue and it was MORE than loud enough. Unless that Krank is unusually quiet (I have no experience playing one), it'll be more than loud enough. Contrary to popular belief, a 100 watt head is NOT twice as loud. Only a few decibals actually. The extra 50 watts benefits headroom.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:21 pm 
 

I am serious. And it's from using multiple heads and cab combos in multiple bands and not just with me playing guitar. i've played close to 500 shows with various bands and I stand by what I stated. In my experience and opinion it's not goddamn loud enough.
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FenrirFangs
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:26 pm
Posts: 417
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:38 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
I am serious. And it's from using multiple heads and cab combos in multiple bands and not just with me playing guitar. i've played close to 500 shows with various bands and I stand by what I stated. In my experience and opinion it's not goddamn loud enough.


Image

Just joking dude, I don't doubt you. But seriously, I have no idea why this would be the case. A 50w is ridiculously loud man. A 100w really isn't that much louder. It's all about the head room. My buddy has played shows with a 25 (might hae been a 30w) Orange unmic'd. Filled up the room. It was a decent sized venue too.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:03 pm 
 

Your image link didn't work. and that's fine orange is a different amp than alot. I get more annoyed that someone would think that I have no clue what I'm talking about. Doesn't matter what you said, with you.. you have seen and heard what is adequate and in my case over and over again it wasn't. Nothing you said it's going to negate my experience on the matter. I stated what my god honest developed opinion is.
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:31 pm 
 

Also important is the sensitivity of the speakers. A 100 watt amp with low-sensitivity speakers can be quieter than a 50 watt amp with eminence wizards in it (103db sensitivity).
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:13 pm 
 

I've been told that much of that an amp sounds insufficient is mostly in your head.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:05 pm 
 

Which means I'm correct.
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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:37 am 
 

I meant your physical head, not the amp head. :D
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:04 am 
 

That's what I'm saying! I know you meant head as in what's on my body. I'm forever right because I literally give no shits about anyone else's opinions or thoughts on 90% of everything. So when I say something isn't loud enough I don't even have to further explain ever again.
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:55 am 
 

On the topic of amp wattage, I'm bothered occasionally that all the best sounding amps seem to be 100 or 120 watts. I just don't need that much power for recording, 5-10 is plenty for me. But find me a 5 watt 5150 or a 10 watt Engl Savage. I guess I could always build my own.
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FenrirFangs
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:26 pm
Posts: 417
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:55 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
Your image link didn't work. and that's fine orange is a different amp than alot. I get more annoyed that someone would think that I have no clue what I'm talking about. Doesn't matter what you said, with you.. you have seen and heard what is adequate and in my case over and over again it wasn't. Nothing you said it's going to negate my experience on the matter. I stated what my god honest developed opinion is.



It said "you're doing it wrong". And you don't need to get all defensive dude. I've seen people gig with 25w unmic'd and it sounded totally fine. Whatever kind of experiences you've had, I've had many also. Unless you're playing stadiums, you can ABSOLUTELY gig with a 50w.

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Porman
Sweek Souvlaki Muncher

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:00 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:43 pm 
 

infinitenexus: You can always buy a power attenuator.

SLK: Just wanted to make sure you didn't misunderstand me.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:43 pm 
 

And I never said you couldn't. I said it would sound like shit and it's not loud enough. And my point was just proven above. I don't have to go any further.

Ironic you post "you're doing it wrong" and you didn't even get it right. lol :)

Yea I understood you perfectly Porman.
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Zodijackyl
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:57 pm 
 

Speaking solely of wattage doesn't provide nearly enough information about an amp being loud enough for venues of a generalized size.

First, headroom is a factor as infinitenexus mentioned. Different cabs and speakers are a factor, as well as straight/angled cabs and tilting the speakers on a straight cab. While you risk unpleasant artifacting by going with any setup other than a properly installed PA system and a straight backline, situations are rarely ideal when you're not talking about professionally done productions, so you'll have to deal with that. For practice purposes, I always tilt a combo amp so it's more audible and the treble is clearer to us, but that won't work well in a sizable venue.

Secondly, distortion strongly affects loudness and decibel levels with the same wattage. If what you're sending to the speakers looks more like a wall than a waveform, that's going to sound louder.

Third, the format of the band and what frequency ranges you're trying to emphasize are going to affect perceived loudness. Higher frequencies are perceived as louder, and this will certainly be a difference when you have a death/thrash band like Porman, where the guitars have mid-range and high end crunch, or you go for dirty, sludgy tones like SLK seems to prefer - lowed tuned guitars can require greater wattage to achieve the desired levels of loudness, as human tolerance of lower frequencies is higher.

Finally, if you are going to be playing shows at venues that don't have a PA system, if you prefer DIY stuff, then learn as much as you can about everything I just said. The more you understand what you are working with, the easier it will be to control it.

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Gelseth_Andrano
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Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:22 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:07 am 
 

Chainsaw Omega wrote:
Speaking of a 1960 cab, I got one for sale for $200 if you are anywhere near the Chicago area.

Still got that cab?
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FenrirFangs
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:26 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
And I never said you couldn't. I said it would sound like shit and it's not loud enough. And my point was just proven above. I don't have to go any further.

Ironic you post "you're doing it wrong" and you didn't even get it right. lol :)

Yea I understood you perfectly Porman.


That is ironic isn't it? And how was it proven above? An 100 watt amp is, on average, 3db louder than a 50w. It's not scientifically possible for a 50w to be too quiet when the difference is only a few dbs. It's only 12db quieter. The only thing that suffers is the headroom. Unless your drummer is absolutely milked, it should be more than enough power.

It also depends on the speaker cab you're running. If you put a 50w JCM 800 through a 4x12, even unmic'd, you're gonna bust ears. Perceived sound has to do with the amount of air that is manipulated.

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:29 pm 
 

It was proven i was correct. You might as well drop it cause it's not loud enough.
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FenrirFangs
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:30 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
It was proven i was correct. You might as well drop it cause it's not loud enough.


How so?

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:27 pm 
 

Go back up, read and you will be blessed with knowledge.
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FenrirFangs
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:39 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
Go back up, read and you will be blessed with knowledge.


I don't see anything definite, but I don't wanna put in the effort to read each post. Let us just agree to disagree!!

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