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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:54 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Well you'd be lying to yourself if you denied that they had a huge hand in keeping heavy music relevant in the mainstream for a long time. Yeah, black metal happened in the mid-90s but nobody outside of a niche audience gave a fuck. Pantera was a massively successful band who reached out to throngs of people and helped keep a style of music in the public eye. No one band ever "kept metal alive", especially since it never really died, but the mid 90s didn't produce a whole lot of visible stuff, and Pantera is one of the exceptions.


I concur with this general assessment, though obviously I absolutely loathe the album in question. Pantera kept metal in the mainstream with their popularity, along with Anthrax, Sepultura and just about every other band that switched over to the dumbed down style that was popular between 1992-1997 in the U.S. Granted, this all assumes that one cares whether or not metal is actually mainstream, and the reviewer seems to think that it has a strong bearing on his personal justification for defending the album, though he has a sufficient level of description to go with it.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:18 am 
 

Helmet were a better groove metal band than Pantera ever were. Sadly, they were nowhere near as influential.
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:38 am 
 

I love Down, but I just can't get into Pantera. Completely agree that they helped keep metal in the mainstream, though.
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Gutterscream
The Last Old Schooler in Town

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:15 pm 
 

When you think of most influential bands of the '90s, you have to think Pantera in at least the top 3.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:46 pm 
 

Gutterscream wrote:
When you think of most influential bands of the '90s, you have to think Pantera in at least the top 3.

How is it measured? In terms of influenced bands' commercial success and public exposure?
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Napero
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:06 pm 
 

Gutterscream is right, no matter how you measure it, as long as the focus is on holding up the flag and essentially keeping metal afloat. They had commercial success and whatever, but the main point is that after Metallica, they were the only metal band a lot of mainstream people knew. Simplistic or not, they were one of the essential bulwarks against Korn at one point.

The 90's sucked in many ways, dudes.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:24 pm 
 

The 90s saw the refinement of black metal and death metal, and most of the actually praiseworthy extreme metal bands played then. Certainly, there were bands that were completely asstastic, but most of my favourite music was either released in the decade or inspired by music released then.
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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:34 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
Gutterscream is right, no matter how you measure it, as long as the focus is on holding up the flag and essentially keeping metal afloat. They had commercial success and whatever, but the main point is that after Metallica, they were the only metal band a lot of mainstream people knew. Simplistic or not, they were one of the essential bulwarks against Korn at one point.

The 90's sucked in many ways, dudes.


It certainly sucked if someone was a thrash metal fan and if anybody was really interested in metal staying in the mainstream. One thing I will say in Pantera's defense is that while a number of nu-metal bands took influences from them, they never jumped on the nu-metal bandwage the way Sepultura, Anthrax, Machine Head and Skinlab did.

On the other hand, if death metal is a person's favorite style, much of the period between 1992-1996 was pretty exciting, as such with black metal. Not to mention that much of the best power metal revivalism fell between 1996 and 1999, though it tends to be seen as being more of an early 2000s thing.
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TheLiberation
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:45 am 
 

Well, from my perspective I've also never perceived the '90s as a particularly bad period, quite the opposite - many of the doomy bands developed at that time (the UK trio of PL/MDB/Anathema for example), some very interesting bands like Opeth and Katatonia also started to roll around that time. I understand it was a bad period for the more traditional forms of metal, but also some other ones developed a lot at that time, especially the darker/proggier stuff.

Also I know Pantera quite poorly but I've always been a bit puzzled by the hate they sometimes get around here.
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:13 pm 
 

Their music is basically just a bunch of dumbed-down toughguy grooves. It's not hard to figure out why they're despised even if you disagree with the vitriol yourself.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:16 pm 
 

They're better than most people here give them credit for. I'd rather listen to them over a majority of the trendy stuff that gets touted here...i.e. folky type stuff, most super-techy melodeath, what little "brutal" stuff I've heard, etc. The main reason people seem to take issue with their stuff is because of the lyrics and general attitude they have, which I do understand...doesn't gel with everyone. But the riffs and general guitarwork are pretty awesome, and not as far removed from thrash as some people here claim. And they can generally write a good solid metal tune, even if the ways they go about it aren't to everyone's liking. I do get the hate, sure, but I just don't really buy into that anymore. I feel like some of it just comes from kids who got into metal by reading reviews on here and didn't even give it a chance - which I only say because I was like that myself at one point.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:01 pm 
 

The intro is the worst thrash riff I've heard in a long time. The second riff is forgettable, and after that it gets unbearable.

I like a lot of thrash, but the tough guy style groove metal is something I can't stomach. It's as simple as that. Cowboys From Hell is not a bad album, I used to have a review for it where I gave it somewthing like 65%.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:15 pm 
 

I think it rips. Great tune.

On a different note...http://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/S ... /lonerider

Quote:
If anything, Satyr deserves some respect for boldly straying from safe and trodden paths to create something fresh without compromising his artistic integrity or pandering to any kind of mainstream. Thus, “The Age of Nero” is a good but not great record that should be appreciated for what it is instead of being constantly judged by what some think the band should sound like.


:lol: Without compromising his artistic integrity? I remember this album sounding like bone-dry riffs with no imagination and vocals more suited to a guy taking a shit.

But the real reason I bring it up is that I'm convinced now: every reviews beginning with one of those "If you're expecting this to sound like (classic album x), you'll be disappointed, but..." statements is just not worth reading.
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TheLiberation
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:25 pm 
 

I wrote something along these lines in my reviews of the last Anathema and Katatonia, but it was a little further. This sounds like a no-brainer, but I feel it's sometimes worth pointing out as there really are people out there who expect a miraculous return to 15 years earlier :P
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caspian
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:08 pm 
 

There aren't really. I think it's much more accurate to say that there are people who prefer the older albums and will share that opinion. Can't blame 'Em, dods or bmd are miles better than katatonia's current boredom-rock sound.
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mad_submarine
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:33 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:15 pm 
 

I just needed to say that Metantoine's review of "So Long Suckers" is fucking legendary. Terrific job, really enjoyed it.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:42 pm 
 

Thank you very much, it took me a while to write, took a lot of handwritten notes before as well. After like 30 reviews since may, I felt I was ready to attack the album. I tagged Kimi Karki on the facebook review post and he said it was a long review for a long album! I'll perhaps review Orne or Lord Vicar next.

I also liked your review of ''Thulsa Doom'', I approved it yesterday but I think it bogged or something since it's back in the queue, I'll check it out.
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GuntherTheUndying
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:12 pm 
 

Agreed about Tony's review, good read.
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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:53 pm 
 

I think he gave it a rating that was about 90% too high, though.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:02 am 
 

I'll write a 5% review for you.
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:14 am 
 

I found it a bit too metaphorical and imagery based for my personal liking, but you definitely managed to express your passion for the album/band/members well.
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mad_submarine
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Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:33 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:15 am 
 

Metantoine wrote:
Thank you very much, it took me a while to write, took a lot of handwritten notes before as well. After like 30 reviews since may, I felt I was ready to attack the album. I tagged Kimi Karki on the facebook review post and he said it was a long review for a long album! I'll perhaps review Orne or Lord Vicar next.

I also liked your review of ''Thulsa Doom'', I approved it yesterday but I think it bogged or something since it's back in the queue, I'll check it out.


Oh, him having seen it must be great. I always feel too embarrassed to show my reviews to bands. Maybe I'd give "So Long Suckers" slightly smaller rating, but it will surely be way above 80, so 5 is totally out of the question :wink:

P.S. My review was gone, because I wanted to correct several mistakes and deleted it.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:40 pm 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
I found it a bit too metaphorical and imagery based for my personal liking, but you definitely managed to express your passion for the album/band/members well.

That's my style pushed to the limits just like the album!

Mad_Sub: edit the review and don't delete it, please. You get the points twice if you do...
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mad_submarine
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:00 pm 
 

Okay, sorry. I didn't notice.

On the latest Pilgrim review: No, they would not sound better if they are faster. Slowness is what works out for them.
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OzzyApu
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:02 pm 
 

Reading this: http://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/M ... alAttorney

Completely made me think of this the entire time. "Oh look, the women can play good metal" was the stance the entire review.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:07 pm 
 

Quote:
Through The Pilgrimage, Mares of Thrace have undone any damage to the reputation of metal women done by Gallhammer


:lol: Like those are the only two female fronted bands ever. What a load of shit. Terrible review.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:22 pm 
 

Terrible reviewer, most of his reviews shouldn't be acceptable, they're not based on my standards haha, his Pilgrim review is mediocre and looks like it was written in 5 minutes in the metro.
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FullMetalAttorney
Mallcore Kid

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:39 pm 
 

More like 10 minutes on my break at work.

Thanks, guys. I know you always get a kick out of reading them.

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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:40 pm 
 

Your new Dying Fetus review calls the newest album "slam death" which is apparently a "fast" genre influenced by "technical death metal and deathgrind". :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: Some people should really just stick to mindlessly enjoying music instead of trying to act as a connoisseur of it.

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FullMetalAttorney
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:37 am 
 

I think there are a few people who need to work on their reading comprehension. That is all.

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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:54 am 
 

He was quoting your review appropriately: "If you haven't heard slam before, it's similar in many ways to technical death and deathgrind, though dumbed-down quite a bit." That part is simply false, slam is a style of brutal death metal that's pushed to the extreme not tech or deathgrind, it rarely has any ties with tech death actually. MC's criticism was totally valid as he's perhaps one of the only reviewers on MA who really know bdm and slam. Dying Fetus is also not actually a slam band.

And I appreciate the fact that you tell people to improve their reading comprehension, maybe you should improve your reviews as well. I guess the heat wave is making me assholish, sorry.
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FullMetalAttorney
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:00 am 
 

And you've made my point for me. This is one of a handful of reasons why I don't typically spend time in the forums here.

However, I was only being slightly tongue-in-cheek when I thanked you guys. You clearly do enjoy reading them, though not for the reasons I originally intended. Whatever. I've previously made my review philosophy known, and it's not in line with the vocal group here.

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dystopia4
Veteran

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:26 am 
 

I understand that you abide more by the 'buyers guide' reviewing mentality over taking a more in-depth criticism approach. Obviously, a lot of MA reviews don't fall under the short buyers guide style (which probably finds a better home more often in zines and such). I personally don't take offence at it or anything, but surely you could understand why it wouldn't get a warm reception. Also, a lot of criticism here had to do with actual content, such as treating Mares of Thrace as if they were one of the only female metal bands and botching what slam death is (also, I'd like to point out that Panopticon doesn't sound similar to Cobalt at all). None of the criticism had to do with a lack of "reading comprehension".

However, I will say that you have pretty solid taste. Thanks for covering Bloodiest, really awesome album, and I wouldn't have found out about it if not for your review.
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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:10 am 
 

Bro, FMA: if you write one thing and then mean another in your mind, my ability to divine your true feelings is not covered under "reading comprehension", it's called "mind-reading" and is generally considered by civilized society to be an impossible feat. I can only discern what you might mean by what you've put out there, and in this case that ranges from shaky at best to blatantly wrong at worst. While you're not incorrect in saying that DF have some tech-death and grind pinches, they do not play slam death. The term "slam" ideally should have been used in that specific review exactly as any times as "European power metal" was - zilch. And saying that slam is like tech-death but dumbed-down is like saying that metal as a whole is like minimalist ambient but heavier - they are on such blatantly contrasting ends of the spectrum that comparing the two in such a manner is incredibly misleading. Do yourself and your readers a favor and listen to a few bands like Gorevent and Abominable Putridity so you can identify the style in the future and avoid using the term to describe any ordinary death metal band that uses a slow break. If you intentionally design your reviews to be short, expository blurbs, the least you could do is maintain factual accuracy.

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FullMetalAttorney
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:30 pm 
 

I hate getting sucked into these kinds of discussions, but here goes.

- On Pilgrim, I just thought their mid-paced songs were better than their slow songs. Some people just can't pull of the slow. It's a matter of opinion.

- On the Mares of Thrace review, I thought the Gallhammer connection was pretty obvious. They're the only two metal bands I've heard of which have only two members, both of whom are female, and don't have a bass player. The Gallhammer reference was brought in at the end because (a) they're terrible and they consistently get called out for being interesting only because they're an all-female band, and (b) to bring the bass-less point around. Here's another reading comprehension issue, because the first paragraph makes clear I'm aware there are more women in metal.

- I mentioned Cobalt in the Panopticon review because they both have a lot of American folk influence. On their strictly black metal aspects I'd agree they have very little in common. In context the whole statement you're referring to still seems pretty good to me.

- Bloodiest, yes. Excellent album. I'll take the compliment, and say, thank you.

- On slam, several points:

A. I've never claimed to be an expert on slam. (Or on pretty much any music, for that matter. I'm a student and a fan of metal, and I hope people are learning with me.) I've only listened to about a half-dozen slam albums, most of which were primarily fast. The first thing that pops up in Youtube for Gorevent is pretty fast through about half of its runtime, too. The Abominable Putridity one is even faster.

B. If Dying Fetus is not slam death, then you're operating on some kind of definition of slam I've never heard. You're also ignoring plenty of sources who cite them as a seminal slam band. Then again, plenty of sources cite Amon Amarth as a Viking metal band, which obviously is not correct based on any reasonable definition of Viking metal I know. The point here is, some of these definitions are not agreed upon by everyone. Thank you for educating me on yours, but I'm still a little cloudy on it.

C. I never said slam was "influenced by" technical death or deathgrind. This was the worst of the reading comprehension issues I saw. And I don't think it's a stretch to say it's dumbed-down tech death. It's like Suffocation, post-lobotomy. I get your point about how they couldn't be further apart, but that's only focusing on the one aspect where I differentiated, i.e., the dumbing-down. They all came from Suffocation anyway.

And in closing, I'll try to remember not to read the forums anymore. Or any forums for that matter, because those days are over for me.

I know my style of reviewing isn't welcome among the reviewing community here. It's taking a whole lot of will on my part to avoid getting into another debate on that issue. I don't think the majority of folks who use MA and read reviews on MA are coming to the forums on a regular basis. I know there are a lot of people who do appreciate my reviews. So as I've said before, if my reviews meet MA standards and MA wants them, they can have them too. You'll be seeing a lot more of them soon, because I'm catching up after over a year of posting them here being an afterthought.

Have fun mocking them, or reading them any way you wish. Just so long as you keep it metal.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:27 pm 
 

The fact that you focus on the members' gender so much at all, makes the review questionable. It doesn't really matter why you did so...it should not be a point of concern or interest what their gender is unless it's clean singing which can vary immensely in impact/quality between the two genders and relationships to style.
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:19 pm 
 

Interesting observation on the Cobalt/Panopticon comparison. I guess they both have a sort of "Americana" vibe (wouldn't call anything in Cobalt outright folk), although it manifests in different ways for each band, with it taking on a more atmospheric roll in Cobalt and taking on a more songwriter (or bluegrass!) angle on Kentucky. As for the Dying Fetus being called slam thing, it's not all that removed from the Amon Amarth/viking metal situation. Not to say that Dying Fetus didn't have an influence on slam, but calling them slam themselves is incorrect.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:07 pm 
 

So you acknowledge that posting on the forum helped you learn a bit more about a certain style of music you've written about, but still refuse to ever look at them again because people criticize your reviews? Grow the fuck up.
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:14 pm 
 

At least it wasn't as bad as the last argument he got in here about reviews, he called the general style of reviews that get posted on MA "outdated" and basically said that musical description isn't necessary for a review. It's kind of silly to get upset when a group of people who have completely different expectations for what they want from a review aren't enamoured by your writing.
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FullMetalAttorney
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:42 am 
 

"The fact that you focus on the members' gender so much at all, makes the review questionable."

It might, if you approached reviewing from a clinical standpoint. I always look for an angle to draw people in and make it interesting in a broader context, not just for those who are concerned with this one single album.

"So you acknowledge that posting on the forum helped you learn a bit more about a certain style of music you've written about, but still refuse to ever look at them again because people criticize your reviews? Grow the fuck up."

It has nothing to do with people criticizing, or at least that's tangential to it. You might notice I have trouble letting misunderstandings go. (I know! Shocking.) I also find there are conversations I get into where people consistently misinterpret my motives (deliberately or otherwise), leading them to misinterpret everything I say, leading to me not letting it go, leading to them misinterpreting something else. The forums are a gigantic time sink for me, in a life that can handle no additional time sinks.

And no one's upset. I actually enjoy having such debates. Yet I find they're not fruitful. And, again, a time sink.

Good day to all of you. I need to officially and finally cut myself off from this discussion, or it will not end for me. So that's it. Thanks again.

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