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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:18 pm 
 

I don't agree with that passage partly because the album itself is good, but more because what bitterman wants metal to be is much worse than that in my opinion.
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thrashmaniac87
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:30 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I don't agree with that passage partly because the album itself is good, but more because what bitterman wants metal to be is much worse than that in my opinion.


I can't imagine something much worse than that. What is it that you think Bitterman wants metal to be?
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mjollnir
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:34 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I don't agree with that passage partly because the album itself is good, but more because what bitterman wants metal to be is much worse than that in my opinion.


That album blows. I don't always agree with "him" but he does make some valid points....and almost all of that passage (except for the Korn reference because I hadn't heard of Korn yet) is exactly what I thought the first time I heard VDoP. And he's not the only one...there are plenty of reviews that feel the same way. And what he wants metal to be is not in any of his reviews....he points out, in his own way, what he thinks metal is not.
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Last edited by mjollnir on Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:40 pm 
 

thrashmaniac87 wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
I don't agree with that passage partly because the album itself is good, but more because what bitterman wants metal to be is much worse than that in my opinion.


I can't imagine something much worse than that. What is it that you think Bitterman wants metal to be?


That obnoxious intellectualizing of things just to masturbate their own egos - that whole "metal died in 1993" crap, which obviously has no basis in reality. Very small minded way to look at music. I'm sure part of it is just bullshit trolling, but even so. And really, insulting a band just because some of their fans are a bunch of meth head truckers just isn't really a sound argument for criticism, and doesn't make sense much at all.
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true_death
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:42 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
That obnoxious intellectualizing of things just to masturbate their own egos - that whole "metal died in 1993" crap, which obviously has no basis in reality. Very small minded way to look at music. I'm sure part of it is just bullshit trolling, but even so. And really, insulting a band just because some of their fans are a bunch of meth head truckers just isn't really a sound argument for criticism, and doesn't make sense much at all.


I highly doubt that bitterman was an actual guy, though. I always saw it as a character, a joke caricature of how self-proclaimed "open-minded" metalheads see "elitists". So thus I was mildly annoyed that he fucked up the score for "Dreams of the Carrion Kind" and "Surgical Steel", which were the only two albums I love that I recall him doing, but that was it. Besides, that caricature's not entirely accurate as at this point, a lot of the younger kids will call you an 'elitist' only because you don't like his favorite band (to illustrate this point, I heard that All That Remains wrote a song called "Trve-Kvlt-Metal" attacking 'elitists' who "want them to return to 'The Fall of Ideals'" sound :lol: ). I absolutely agree with everything you're saying though.
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thrashmaniac87
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:58 pm 
 

true_death wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
That obnoxious intellectualizing of things just to masturbate their own egos - that whole "metal died in 1993" crap, which obviously has no basis in reality. Very small minded way to look at music. I'm sure part of it is just bullshit trolling, but even so. And really, insulting a band just because some of their fans are a bunch of meth head truckers just isn't really a sound argument for criticism, and doesn't make sense much at all.


I highly doubt that bitterman was an actual guy, though. I always saw it as a character, a joke caricature of how self-proclaimed "open-minded" metalheads see "elitists". So thus I was mildly annoyed that he fucked up the score for "Dreams of the Carrion Kind" and "Surgical Steel", which were the only two albums I love that I recall him doing, but that was it. Besides, that caricature's not entirely accurate as at this point, a lot of the younger kids will call you an 'elitist' only because you don't like his favorite band (to illustrate this point, I heard that All That Remains wrote a song called "Trve-Kvlt-Metal" attacking 'elitists' who "want them to return to 'The Fall of Ideals'" sound :lol: ). I absolutely agree with everything you're saying though.


I was pretty disappointed with Surgical Steel but Bitterman's review is pretty lame but it doesn't have anything on that horrendous review from LeMiserable. It's one of the most painful reviews I've ever read. He acts like a Carcass expert but admits he didn't hear about Carcass until after Surgical Steel was released.
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MonumentalBlackArt
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:34 am 
 

I couldn't disagree more with Empyreal's review of Noble Beast. The album is just nonstop boner inducing riffs. I agree that they could have cut some of the album's 60 minutes (basically the whole last song, really), but everything else just obliterates. I think the lengthy tracks give the album a really expansive, epic feel. And the singer's voice takes some getting used to, but it slays!

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true_death
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:52 am 
 

thrashmaniac87 wrote:
I was pretty disappointed with Surgical Steel but Bitterman's review is pretty lame but it doesn't have anything on that horrendous review from LeMiserable. It's one of the most painful reviews I've ever read. He acts like a Carcass expert but admits he didn't hear about Carcass until after Surgical Steel was released.


Yeah, I definitely agree. The "jokes" were unfunny and not clever at all, and his negativity towards the album felt forced and not genuine. Like he hadn't even given the album a chance and was only reviewing it so he could shit on it and achieve "street cred" or something. I really don't think he even totally understood why some folks didn't like it.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:43 am 
 

bitterman made me happier as a person.

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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:53 pm 
 

What a wonderfully incompetent review of regurgitated and misinterpreted views on "Det som engang var" from Doominance, the same idiot who submitted a review of Black Sabbath's first album and talked about how downtuning the guitars shaped it.

Quote:
After Varg Vikernes had released his debut album, the self-titled 'Burzum' and the EP 'Aske', 'Det som engang var' was released swiftly.


Swiftly? It took a year and a half after it was recorded to release it, during which time he recorded two more albums and had a highly publicized change of record labels which ended a couple weeks before this album was released when he murdered the former label boss while allegedly bringing him paperwork to settle an alleged contract dispute.

Quote:
Being Burzum's second full-length album and one of the four or so albums recorded in just over a year, one would think that it would sound a lot like 'Burzum' or 'Aske',


Why would one think that? The band's sound was changing, as evidenced by those first two as well as the other two albums recorded in that time period. Unless one has never heard Burzum before and is completely unaware of the context and history of the band, that's a really poor assumption to make.

Quote:
since black metal is fairly one-dimensonial by nature.


:brick:

Quote:
This, however, was not the case. 'Det som engang var' is black metal. Absolutely. But it's surprisingly varied when compared to Burzum's earlier releases, as well as in comparison to other Norwegian black metal acts releasing stuff at the same time, for instance Darkthrone and Immortal.


Other than half of the tracks being ambient, but it might be too much to ask to examine the integration rather than make blanket statements about genre.

Quote:
It was clear that Varg had a pretty good idea what he wanted his Burzum-project to sound like already when he started out.


An odd statement, considering how the introduction to the review reflected on how much the band changed in just over a year during which four albums and an EP were recorded.

Quote:
He wanted to combine the harsh, chaotic nature of raw black metal with the atmospheric and almost cinematic nature of ambient music.


Considering the brilliant, flowing composition and the noted juxtaposition with atmospheric, cinematic ambient music, it is quite naive to call it chaotic. Perhaps if one simply writes about it rather than thinking about it, it doesn't seem to have any order about it. The ambient intro leading into a dissonant riff, a jarring Destruction-esque riff, and the classic Burzum "spell" riff has a very precise order about it.

I'd also guess that he's heard maybe half a dozen black metal bands if he is referring to this as raw black metal, because the production here is amazing.

Quote:
This, combined with the fantasy-based lyrical themes (most notably J.R.R. Tolkien's work) worked out superbly, and 'Det som engang var' is the album where the whole package comes together properly.


Only one song on the album has lyrics about fantasy/LOTR, the rest are about reality.

Quote:
This album has the cold, harsh raw black metal sound


:fuck:

I'll skip the next couple paragraphs.

Quote:
"Lost Wisdom" is song akin to "Key to the Gate", but it's a bit more old-school like with the Hellhammer influence. It's got a very groovy and memorable main-riff that has a great deal a swagger to it. The song remains fairly original, though, because nobody at the time used the terrifying shrieks for vocals as Varg did.


Swagger? :ugh:

Quote:
'Det som engang var' is very much the old-school Burzum we know. A bit less "mature" than later releases from the 90s (face it, 'Hvis lyset tar oss' and 'Filosofem' are the ultimate black metal albums), but the excellent execution of the combination of raw black metal and dark ambient make this album great. I would also consider it a tad bit more accessible than Burzum's other 90s albums.


What kind of buffoon decides to conclude a review of a Burzum album with a comment about how "accessible" it is?

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OzzyApu
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:01 pm 
 

That reads exactly as what I wrote on Amazon ~2005/2006 as I heard my first 5 black metal albums (DSEV being one of them) and read up on stuff for the first time.
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:52 pm 
 

@Zodi: :lol: Man, I did not think anyone could top Metal_Thrasher90 and his "80s thrash or die" attitude but...um...swagger? Varg? Good thing you had the patients to break that shit down...better you than I.

MonumentalBlackArt wrote:
I couldn't disagree more with Empyreal's review of Noble Beast. The album is just nonstop boner inducing riffs. I agree that they could have cut some of the album's 60 minutes (basically the whole last song, really), but everything else just obliterates. I think the lengthy tracks give the album a really expansive, epic feel. And the singer's voice takes some getting used to, but it slays!


I have to agree with you. I've been this band's number one cheerleader on here since day one. All the haters have to say is that their songs are too long...but they agree that they have non stop great riffs. How can a song with so much great riffage and excellent musicianship be too long? The songs are epic and are perfect the way they are. I actually listened to them last night after seeing that review and I stand by everything I've ever said about them. That album is miles ahead of the absolute garbage that some of my favorite European power metal bands are putting out these days.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:25 pm 
 

Because not everything good needs to be stretched out as long as possible? Succinctness is a good thing, which NB don't have at all...if I have to force myself to finish an album, it's not a good thing. And what haters, haha, most people seem to love the shit out of that album. I barely see anyone but me criticizing it.
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:31 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Because not everything good needs to be stretched out as long as possible? Succinctness is a good thing, which NB don't have at all...if I have to force myself to finish an album, it's not a good thing.


I feel differently. I think the songs flow and their length doesn't even come into play because the songs have enough going on to keep me interested all the way through. Six and a half minutes seems like half of that because they take advantage of every moment in each song.
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Lane
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:58 pm 
 

Reading through 214 pages? Not me, not tonight. I'm here to thank LDSA for his work on Iron Maiden's 'The X Factor'. He's written 3 reviews here so far. Anyways, this is great job: http://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/I ... DSA/265602

PS. His review on 'The Final Frontier' is great. Lot of depth. I got similar issues on the album. In my opinion, 'TFF' is the worst Maiden album to date. 'AMoLaD' stuff is not how I see it, though.
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Gutterscream
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:03 pm 
 

All this mileage because I mentioned Metal_Thrasher used a really outcast band in Salient as an example in his review. Whew!
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:28 pm 
 

There were great reviews put up recently. Diamhea's Iron Savior review is spot on and a great review. He was able to identify what not only makes them a great band, but what makes that album great!

Metantione's review of Mausoleum Gate was also great. That album is special in so many ways because of so many different influences and Tony pointed out almost all of them....because I hear a lot of Uriah Heep in that album. ;) But that didn't take away from the review. I enjoyed reading a great review of an excellent album.

TheStormIRide's review of the new Abominator album was also a great read. I don't agree 100% with his assessment because I thought it was worth a little more than what he gave it, but he made his points well and overall, as usual from him, a great review.
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TheStormIRide
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:05 pm 
 

mjollnir wrote:
TheStormIRide's review of the new Abominator album was also a great read. I don't agree 100% with his assessment because I thought it was worth a little more than what he gave it, but he made his points well and overall, as usual from him, a great review.


Thanks man! That Abominator album was good, but compared with the rest of their albums, and the scene in general, it has a hard time stacking up. Maybe it's because the album really lacks something for the band to call their own. Or it could just be the mass of great albums in the genre recently, like Perdition Temple's "The Tempter's Victorious".
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:23 pm 
 

mjollnir wrote:
Metantione's review of Mausoleum Gate was also great. That album is special in so many ways because of so many different influences and Tony pointed out almost all of them....because I hear a lot of Uriah Heep in that album. ;) But that didn't take away from the review. I enjoyed reading a great review of an excellent album.

Thanks, been a while since I wrote stuff on a regular basis. Oh yeah, there's definitely some Uriah Heep there and even some Hawkwind, I don't know why I forgot to mention them!
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sushiman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:40 am 
 

Always enjoy autothrall's reviews of compilations for the way he tears them apart. The one for that pointless Introducing Darkthrone release is no different, however this at the end:

Quote:
You wanna get someone into Darkthrone? Grab a flask of whiskey or equivalent, at least one of their full-length albums, and a boombox; take the prospective listener to a defaced local castle/landmark (graffiti preferred) or a woodland or park littered with abandoned automobiles and other social detritus. The closer to winter, the more effective. Take a swig and trade off. Apply volume liberally. Bonfires or oil-drum-fires welcome.


...sounds like much fun. I've never really done this kind of thing but now I live in a city that has lots of very cool parks with old bits of towers and such in 'em, this is something I could actually do. I don't even need to find someone to indoctrinate into Darkthrone, just some supermarket whisky.

Anyway decent reviews for both that one and the more recent compilation on Peaceville; I reckon the reissues with commentary (and in some cases new artwork) are far more worth picking up than either if people have extra Darkthrone bucks to spend.

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Diamhea
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:00 am 
 

sushiman wrote:
Always enjoy autothrall's reviews of compilations for the way he tears them apart. The one for that pointless Introducing Darkthrone release is no different


And that's my problem with most of his compilation reviews. They all espouse the same grievances with maybe just a modicum of historical background or in the case of the one you pointed out, that nifty commentary that you enjoyed so. It's like, okay dude we get it, most compilations are redundant and can arguably be views as "cash grabs," but if you aren't doing to dissect and complain about the track selection or something and apply that to the final score, don't even bother. Don't just hate them all on some pseudo-elitist principle and give them all super-low scores because the songs exist elsewhere. The internet has made the entire concept somewhat obsolete, sure, I get that, but he has hundreds of reviews that are all interchangeable in this manner. Perchance just due to the law of averages due to his output, but while I can almost always get behind his regular album reviews (save for Horrorscope, no fucking way), his comp. appraisals have always bugged me.

That Darkthrone one he just submitted is the way he should be taking it, so let's hope that continues.
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NoKnownName
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:31 pm 
 

sushiman wrote:
Always enjoy autothrall's reviews of compilations

First time I've heard anyone say that.
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sushiman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:36 am 
 

I'm surprised to see they aren't more highly regarded! Usually worth a laugh or two aren't they? Yeah he tends to write the same couple of complaints every time a veteran band does a compilation, but for a guy like that who is so knowledgeable and enthusiastic about many of these groups it's good to read him approaching them from a more negative angle. In a strange way it brings out his enthusiasm for their work even more starkly.

Diamhea wrote:
They all espouse the same grievances

Aye, but in relation to that other thread about what the point of reviewing is, I see that as autothrall just being thorough. And the profit on it is that those analyses are available for say, Darkthrone listeners even if they haven't read his gripes about other compilations.

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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:35 am 
 

He's just keeping up his numbers. You can call it thorough if you want, I'd call it redundant... much like the compilations themselves.

You could say he's fighting fire with fire, but I'm not so sure. :P
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sushiman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:53 am 
 

Acrobat wrote:
You can call it thorough if you want, I'd call it redundant...

That's a whole other debate eh :lol:

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:22 pm 
 

http://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/A ... c17/339108

I kind of get what he's saying about this not being what you think of when you think AIC, but I dunno, this album IS what I think of when AIC comes to mind.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:56 pm 
 

That review was shit anyway, literally all it said was that it was dark and not exactly grunge.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:40 am 
 

Braindead Binky manages to have an opinion that everybody shares and still manages to fuck it up.

http://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/T ... nky/324452

I'm absolutely in the minority when it comes to The Sword's first album and I accepted that years ago, but this is just some of the weirdest criticisms I've seen in a while. Every song uses the same riff? Like, okay I get that's a hyperbolic statement to say that the band isn't all that creative and only has one idea, which is a totally fair assessment because it's not necessarily wrong in this case, but to make that point he singles out two of the most instantly recognizable riff based songs on the album. It's like saying Ride the Lightning sucks because Call of Ktulu sounds just like Escape. Then he complains about the time signatures, as if every band in the universe doesn't use 4/4 about 95% of the time, and then in the next breath says the band is trying to be progressive. And despite nothing but negativity and how much he can't stand this album, it gets a positive score.

I hate reviewers who use the school's grading system. I hate everything. Where did I leave my whiskey? FUCK
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:00 am 
 

But BastardHead...

"Let's go back in time to the 1990's when Black Sabbath-influenced doom metal was slowly gaining ground.
...
The Sword felt they wanted to emulate Trouble as much as possible, thus we're left with a cheap and boring knockoff of 90's doom metal."


:???:

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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:38 pm 
 

Quote:
Users browsing this forum: Brainded Binky

THE MOMENT OF TRUTH
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:34 pm 
 

Metal_Thrasher90 is at it again. His Graveyard review is just wrong on so many levels. The album is quite enjoyable IMO and he's in the obvious minority in his opinion, it seems. Of course, he's on the "they're ripping off _______" kick as usual. And to try and bolster his flawed theory he quotes this from the band's facebook...

Quote:
“They had always discussed about the possibility to develope a band/side-project in order to worship and show respect toward those bands they hailed since they were teenagers like Entombed, Asphyx, Dismember, Slayer, Celtic Frost, Edge Of Sanity, At The Gates, Venom, Autopsy, Carnage, Morbid Angel, Grave or Bolt Thrower”.


At least he gave the album a score this time. :roll:
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Diamhea
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm 
 

I had notified Brainded_Binky of this thread but he obviously isn't going to respond, nor is MT_90. Probably out of embarrassment to the former, as he started making a bunch of tiny edits to his Slayer reviews. MT_90 hears us loud and clear, and doesn't care. So you are wasting your time complaining about him at this point. :lol:
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mjollnir
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 2056
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:49 pm 
 

Diamhea wrote:
I had notified Brainded_Binky of this thread but he obviously isn't going to respond, nor is MT_90. Probably out of embarrassment to the former, as he started making a bunch of tiny edits to his Slayer reviews. MT_90 hears us loud and clear, and doesn't care. So you are wasting your time complaining about him at this point. :lol:


You are right. As a matter of fact, it appears that Mr Binky was here earlier but did not respond. I think they know what's being said and like it. They're creating shit storms and they are enjoying it....i.e. they're trolls. If they were not trolls, then they would come in here and back up the shit they say. Oh well...I'm done saying anything about it anymore. It's best not to feed the trolls.
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joecubbie
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:03 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:05 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
The worst thing about all of these reviewers like joecubbie, POD, Braindead Binky, etc, is that they keep reviewing these classic albums under the lens of whatever they perceive in their 15-year-old brains as being "the most metal" influences...they constantly refer to Sabbath albums as albums that "get away with" incorporating non metal influences, like the band back then was measuring their songs and going 'hmm, can we include this? Is it metal enough?' They seem to operate under this idea that metal is a quantifiable thing and all bands who were included in this site considered "being metal" the highest artistic pursuit, dogmatically consistent, unable to include outside influences without "getting away with them." More emphasis is placed on how much of something is metal and not metal, than how good the songs are, or how unprecedented and exciting it was back then to hear some of those old Sabbath albums.

Braindead Binky again wrote:
The title track especially is an extremely simple riff that only consists of a few power chords. I'm giving that a free pass 'cos this was state of the art at the time of its release. Bear in mind that in 1970, heavy metal was pretty much unheard of. Black Sabbath was pretty much the only "real" metal band in existence at that time, and a simple riff like that in the title track could get away with being basic, since nobody else at that time would play something like that. If the album was released today, "Paranoid" would be considered one of the worst things ever since people have come up with even more basic riffs in this day in age.


Jesus Christ what a depressing view of music...yeah, simplicity like old Sabbath would be the worst thing ever today, truly.


Not necessarily Empyreal. The reason Black Sabbath had so many "non-metal" influences is because they didn't even consider themselves to be a "metal band" at the time as the term was new. Sabbath was influenced by everything from blues rockers like Cream and The Yardbirds, to progressive rockers such as Yes and Queen, as well as The Beatles. As for saying that I believe, "being metal the highest artistic pursuit", that isn't true as I could name off a million "non metal" groups I'd listen to as apposed to a lot of the obscure garage/basement death metal/black metal garbage on here. I believe any metal group can "get away" with incorporating any outside elements. This doesn't mean they do it good. For example, Wolves in the Throne Room has done a great job mixing ambient with a unique brand of USBM. A bad example would be Metallica's last 25 years. While their first 4 records make them legends, it was to their detriment on the black album to experiment with a commercial sound. As for Braindead Binky, there were more "real metal" bands in 1970 besides Sabbath including Deep Purple, Thin Lizzy, Lucifer's Friend, and Uriah Heep (who for whatever reason or another is blacklisted from MA). But back to the main idea: if anyone on this site thinks what's "most metal" is surperior, it's the elitists who dominate this site that call Faith No More and Pantera "mallcore" or make up fake genre names to describe something they don't like.

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mjollnir
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:06 pm 
 

joecubbie wrote:
The reason Black Sabbath had so many "non-metal" influences is because they didn't even consider themselves to be a "metal band" at the time as the term was new. Sabbath was influenced by everything from blues rockers like Cream and The Yardbirds, to progressive rockers such as Yes and Queen, as well as The Beatles.

Thanks for being the only one mentioned to respond. I'm not sure of Empyreal's objections overall but I can speak for myself. I'm not a 20 year old who's only exposure to metal was their dad. I lived it. I may have been a young person when Ozzy Sabbath was in it's heyday but I remember it well. I agree that there were many more elements to Sabbath's early music than just metal because they were creating and defining the genre...just as bands like Purple, Uriah Heep (I agree they should be here too) were defining the genre in a different way. Hel, I even think Zeppelin is the first folk metal band and should be here but I don't bitch...I understand the reason's given by the staff why they're not here.


joecubbie wrote:
As for saying that I believe, "being metal the highest artistic pursuit", that isn't true as I could name off a million "non metal" groups I'd listen to as apposed to a lot of the obscure garage/basement death metal/black metal garbage on here.

Be careful about lumping the garage/basement black metal bands as garbage. Most of the second wave band started out just that way and, for some of them, it was the artistry of it that made them what they are.

joecubbie wrote:
I believe any metal group can "get away" with incorporating any outside elements. This doesn't mean they do it good. For example, Wolves in the Throne Room has done a great job mixing ambient with a unique brand of USBM. A bad example would be Metallica's last 25 years. While their first 4 records make them legends, it was to their detriment on the black album to experiment with a commercial sound.

This is such a puzzling statement for me because WiiTR are doing nothing that Moonsorrow or Falkenbach haven't already done. They did not mix ambient with any brand of USBM. They play an epic brand of black metal that a lot of bands are doing. That type of sentiment always makes me laugh.

joecubbie wrote:
But back to the main idea: if anyone on this site thinks what's "most metal" is surperior, it's the elitists who dominate this site that call Faith No More and Pantera "mallcore" or make up fake genre names to describe something they don't like.

Okay, coming from someone who is somewhat elitist (my webzine name is part truth but actually supposed to be humorous) I don't consider what's most metal to be superior. I consider metal to be metal and something not metal to be....not metal. Faith No More is borderline metal and I actually liked The Real Thing when it came out and owned it! However, I don't think that anyone, including myself, called either band mallcore....but they did influence mallcore in profound ways. That's another thing that perplexes me...that mallcore is a fake or made up genre. It's not. It's not nu-metal because "nu" is not a word and it's not metal. It was the shitty -core based noise played at Hot Topic and Spencers....in the mall!

Out of all the reviewers we complained about and who are posting reviews with a somewhat revisionist take on classic metal, you are the only one to come in here and explain yourself. I give you many props for that. I personally have never complained about any of your reviews because I actually agree with most of them. But, at 16 years old, you have to remember that the music that you are reviewing is much older than you and there was a certain feel when that music came out. I love the Beatles post Rubber Soul albums but I can not begin to imagine what the "feeling" was like when that music came out so I would never review them. I don't even review the classic metal albums and I was there! I also think you and a lot of others take things the wrong way. Just because something is not considered metal, or has a lot of non metal elements, does not make it bad or inferior. It just isn't metal.


Edit: Lookie here....
Quote:
Users browsing this forum: Metal_Thrasher90, mjollnir and 1 guest
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TrooperEd wrote:
Edit: fuck it this whole thing is bait anyway.


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joecubbie
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:03 pm
Posts: 358
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:31 pm 
 

mjollnir wrote:
joecubbie wrote:
The reason Black Sabbath had so many "non-metal" influences is because they didn't even consider themselves to be a "metal band" at the time as the term was new. Sabbath was influenced by everything from blues rockers like Cream and The Yardbirds, to progressive rockers such as Yes and Queen, as well as The Beatles.

Thanks for being the only one mentioned to respond. I'm not sure of Empyreal's objections overall but I can speak for myself. I'm not a 20 year old who's only exposure to metal was their dad. I lived it. I may have been a young person when Ozzy Sabbath was in it's heyday but I remember it well. I agree that there were many more elements to Sabbath's early music than just metal because they were creating and defining the genre...just as bands like Purple, Uriah Heep (I agree they should be here too) were defining the genre in a different way. Hel, I even think Zeppelin is the first folk metal band and should be here but I don't bitch...I understand the reason's given by the staff why they're not here.


joecubbie wrote:
As for saying that I believe, "being metal the highest artistic pursuit", that isn't true as I could name off a million "non metal" groups I'd listen to as apposed to a lot of the obscure garage/basement death metal/black metal garbage on here.

Be careful about lumping the garage/basement black metal bands as garbage. Most of the second wave band started out just that way and, for some of them, it was the artistry of it that made them what they are.

joecubbie wrote:
I believe any metal group can "get away" with incorporating any outside elements. This doesn't mean they do it good. For example, Wolves in the Throne Room has done a great job mixing ambient with a unique brand of USBM. A bad example would be Metallica's last 25 years. While their first 4 records make them legends, it was to their detriment on the black album to experiment with a commercial sound.

This is such a puzzling statement for me because WiiTR are doing nothing that Moonsorrow or Falkenbach haven't already done. They did not mix ambient with any brand of USBM. They play an epic brand of black metal that a lot of bands are doing. That type of sentiment always makes me laugh.

joecubbie wrote:
But back to the main idea: if anyone on this site thinks what's "most metal" is surperior, it's the elitists who dominate this site that call Faith No More and Pantera "mallcore" or make up fake genre names to describe something they don't like.

Okay, coming from someone who is somewhat elitist (my webzine name is part truth but actually supposed to be humorous) I don't consider what's most metal to be superior. I consider metal to be metal and something not metal to be....not metal. Faith No More is borderline metal and I actually liked The Real Thing when it came out and owned it! However, I don't think that anyone, including myself, called either band mallcore....but they did influence mallcore in profound ways. That's another thing that perplexes me...that mallcore is a fake or made up genre. It's not. It's not nu-metal because "nu" is not a word and it's not metal. It was the shitty -core based noise played at Hot Topic and Spencers....in the mall!

Out of all the reviewers we complained about and who are posting reviews with a somewhat revisionist take on classic metal, you are the only one to come in here and explain yourself. I give you many props for that. I personally have never complained about any of your reviews because I actually agree with most of them. But, at 16 years old, you have to remember that the music that you are reviewing is much older than you and there was a certain feel when that music came out. I love the Beatles post Rubber Soul albums but I can not begin to imagine what the "feeling" was like when that music came out so I would never review them. I don't even review the classic metal albums and I was there! I also think you and a lot of others take things the wrong way. Just because something is not considered metal, or has a lot of non metal elements, does not make it bad or inferior. It just isn't metal.


Edit: Lookie here....
Quote:
Users browsing this forum: Metal_Thrasher90, mjollnir and 1 guest


I meant making made up genre names for metal groups they don't like. As far as calling Faith No More and Pantera "mallcore", this is based off of reviews of these bands I have read off of this site. As far as the "garage/basement black metal bands" thing goes, that is a reference to bands if say of about the past 15 years. While I'm not the biggest fan of the second wave, I still respect most of the bands as artists and I'm a huge fan of Ulver and Gorgoroth. Zeppelin's inclusion in the Archives could be argued come to think of it, solely based off of influence alone. As for the WiiTR thing, yes while they're not the first, I can safely say they are one of the few USBM bands at the moment (in my opinion) to do this and sound decent. Finally, I understand these albums are much older than me. I'm just trying to express how they make me feel now and how I feel about them, not how it was when they came out.

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mjollnir
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 2056
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:45 pm 
 

joecubbie wrote:
I meant making made up genre names for metal groups they don't like. As far as calling Faith No More and Pantera "mallcore", this is based off of reviews of these bands I have read off of this site. As far as the "garage/basement black metal bands" thing goes, that is a reference to bands if say of about the past 15 years. While I'm not the biggest fan of the second wave, I still respect most of the bands as artists and I'm a huge fan of Ulver and Gorgoroth. Zeppelin's inclusion in the Archives could be argued come to think of it, solely based off of influence alone. As for the WiiTR thing, yes while they're not the first, I can safely say they are one of the few USBM bands at the moment (in my opinion) to do this and sound decent. Finally, I understand these albums are much older than me. I'm just trying to express how they make me feel now and how I feel about them, not how it was when they came out.


That statement about the music being much older than you was not directed totally at you. Like I said, I don't disagree with most of your reviews.
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joecubbie
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:03 pm
Posts: 358
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:59 pm 
 

mjollnir wrote:
joecubbie wrote:
I meant making made up genre names for metal groups they don't like. As far as calling Faith No More and Pantera "mallcore", this is based off of reviews of these bands I have read off of this site. As far as the "garage/basement black metal bands" thing goes, that is a reference to bands if say of about the past 15 years. While I'm not the biggest fan of the second wave, I still respect most of the bands as artists and I'm a huge fan of Ulver and Gorgoroth. Zeppelin's inclusion in the Archives could be argued come to think of it, solely based off of influence alone. As for the WiiTR thing, yes while they're not the first, I can safely say they are one of the few USBM bands at the moment (in my opinion) to do this and sound decent. Finally, I understand these albums are much older than me. I'm just trying to express how they make me feel now and how I feel about them, not how it was when they came out.


That statement about the music being much older than you was not directed totally at you. Like I said, I don't disagree with most of your reviews.


Thanks. Just wanted to make sure haha (about the music being older than me). Also, thanks for agreeing on most of my reviews

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:02 pm 
 

joecubbie wrote:
Not necessarily Empyreal. The reason Black Sabbath had so many "non-metal" influences is because they didn't even consider themselves to be a "metal band" at the time as the term was new. Sabbath was influenced by everything from blues rockers like Cream and The Yardbirds, to progressive rockers such as Yes and Queen, as well as The Beatles. As for saying that I believe, "being metal the highest artistic pursuit", that isn't true as I could name off a million "non metal" groups I'd listen to as apposed to a lot of the obscure garage/basement death metal/black metal garbage on here. I believe any metal group can "get away" with incorporating any outside elements. This doesn't mean they do it good. For example, Wolves in the Throne Room has done a great job mixing ambient with a unique brand of USBM. A bad example would be Metallica's last 25 years. While their first 4 records make them legends, it was to their detriment on the black album to experiment with a commercial sound. As for Braindead Binky, there were more "real metal" bands in 1970 besides Sabbath including Deep Purple, Thin Lizzy, Lucifer's Friend, and Uriah Heep (who for whatever reason or another is blacklisted from MA). But back to the main idea: if anyone on this site thinks what's "most metal" is surperior, it's the elitists who dominate this site that call Faith No More and Pantera "mallcore" or make up fake genre names to describe something they don't like.


I know they didn't consider the music to be metal at the time, that was not my point. To be fair, I was mostly talking about Brainded Binky when I wrote that above post, and your reviews, while I consider them rather rudimentary and too basic, to be honest, may not have flagrantly done the things I was talking about above. Maybe they did. I dunno. I don't feel like going back and reading them for now.

Either way like mjollnir said, at least you came in here and posted. Keep on reviewing, just try and improve your style and talk about the music, not about what genre it's trying to be or isn't, etc - just pay attention to criticism, is all I can tell you. Keep writing and practicing.
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Last edited by Empyreal on Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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~Guest 125312
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:40 am
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:09 pm 
 

How come my comments are never submited in the forum? I've had to change my password twice! Anyway I'll repeat myself anyway - and sorry for interfering with your discussion but:
Diamhea wrote:
I had notified Brainded_Binky of this thread but he obviously isn't going to respond, nor is MT_90. Probably out of embarrassment to the former, as he started making a bunch of tiny edits to his Slayer reviews. MT_90 hears us loud and clear, and doesn't care. So you are wasting your time complaining about him at this point. :lol:


Not really, I always appreciate a second opinion when it's constructive and not exclusively intended to despise somebody's work, though I should say I unfortunately find some of those comments rather disrespectful towards certain users, who might not be extraordinary reviewers but wish to contribute to the data base with their humble reviews - Speaking for myself, despite my obvious limitations, I'm trying my best to express my opinion as reasonably and honestly as possible (sometimes it's difficult to avoid getting emotionally involved with music, for good or bad).

I get to the conclusion most people think we should give no less than 80% and submit positive reviews only, criticism should be banned and minority opinions should be directly ignored. That's not exactly my concept of freedom of opinion and expression. But I insist, I take into consideration your comments anyway as they may serve to improve my reviews.

By the way, can you believe I might get into trouble if I ever dare attending some local thrash/death band show in my city whose demos/EPs I gave “negative” reviews, as I been indirectly threatened by members of those groups? It seems writing reviews here should be considered a high-risk profession :lol:

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