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markoff_chaney
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:42 am
Posts: 233
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:24 am 
 

If you give an album 0%, it means you think it couldn't be worse. Similarly, if you give an album 100%, it means you think it couldn't be better. Therefore I suggest that anyone giving out these scores should be held to a higher standard than other reviews. The reason that I bring up this point is because I was checking out the page for Backyard Mortuary and found that Serpent_Eve gave their self-titled demo 100%. Now I don't doubt Serpent_Eve enjoys this demo, but I don't think the content of his/her review justifies such a high score. Your thoughts?
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caspian
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Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:40 am 
 

My main thought on this is that we've had this thread a few hundred million times before (there's one right below this one!) and there's absolutely no point having it again.
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droneriot
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:12 am 
 

markoff_chaney wrote:
If you give an album 0%, it means you think it couldn't be worse. Similarly, if you give an album 100%, it means you think it couldn't be better.

I view it differently. I see percentages as how much an album delivers of what I want from an album. A 100% album delivers 100% of what I want from an album, a 0% album delivers 0% of what I want from an album.
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markoff_chaney
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:42 am
Posts: 233
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:37 am 
 

caspian wrote:
My main thought on this is that we've had this thread a few hundred million times before (there's one right below this one!) and there's absolutely no point having it again.


Sorry, I rarely visit this sub forum, but I think my criticism of Serpent_Eve's review is valid. So if someone could take another look at it, I think they'd agree.

droneriot wrote:
markoff_chaney wrote:
If you give an album 0%, it means you think it couldn't be worse. Similarly, if you give an album 100%, it means you think it couldn't be better.

I view it differently. I see percentages as how much an album delivers of what I want from an album. A 100% album delivers 100% of what I want from an album, a 0% album delivers 0% of what I want from an album.


Now I think we're just splitting hairs.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:47 am 
 

You can't tell people what score to give a review. Why the fuck would you even care about that? Just because you think you have some magic system where you know what gets 0% and what gets 100% doesn't mean shit because not everyone has the same standards - something you just need to deal with I guess.
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Kveldulfr
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:31 am 
 

I don't mind the 0 -100% scores by themselves, but the content of the review must justify it. It makes no sense that someone says that basically the album is good/decent and gives a 5%; the same goes for people who recognize several flaws on the record only to give it a 100% anyway.
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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:59 am 
 

I don't think there's much point in going into details here, but I'll support this forever:
markoff_chaney wrote:
Therefore I suggest that anyone giving out these scores should be held to a higher standard than other reviews.

Extreme scores should be very well justified. End of story.
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Alsandair
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:00 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:29 pm 
 

While I don't really think there's anything that can or needs to be done I will give my two cents on this.

Empyreal wrote:
You can't tell people what score to give a review. Why the fuck would you even care about that? Just because you think you have some magic system where you know what gets 0% and what gets 100% doesn't mean shit because not everyone has the same standards - something you just need to deal with I guess.


Obviously people can score however they want, but I always thought the point of having reviews on the site was to provide a resource to other metalheads, not just for the entertainment of the reviewer (I have to question the motives of bitterman, even when I agree with him). I guess I'm slightly confused at some of the reviews/reviewers accepted in that they remind me of the sort of sub-par stuff that was removed from the archives en masse a while back.

Also to echo some people in the Watain thread, I question practices like those of Noctis occasionally is his negative reviews. "Panzer Division Marduk is the total opposite of what black metal should be." IMHO this kind of statement is useless and brings the reviewer's credibility into question (note that I DO agree with him). Whether or not an album/band adheres to what you think their assigned genre SHOULD be, is something you should look past before you review it. If you are reviewing for a site that's not your personal blog, do your best to have SOME objectivity, assess what the album is trying to do, and review from there.

Finally, I admit that all this is subjective and therefore not worth effort to moderate any further than the current system does.

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TheStormIRide
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Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:45 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:33 pm 
 

That's the beauty of reviewing though... As a reviewer you get to be objective or subjective. It's up to you. Reviews can be about personal feelings. Unbiased reviews tend to be watered down and geared towards P.R.
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MutantClannfear
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:42 pm 
 

Alsandair wrote:
Also to echo some people in the Watain thread, I question practices like those of Noctis occasionally is his negative reviews. "Panzer Division Marduk is the total opposite of what black metal should be." IMHO this kind of statement is useless and brings the reviewer's credibility into question (note that I DO agree with him). Whether or not an album/band adheres to what you think their assigned genre SHOULD be, is something you should look past before you review it. If you are reviewing for a site that's not your personal blog, do your best to have SOME objectivity, assess what the album is trying to do, and review from there.

Please don't start this. :( The main reason I like MA reviews is that we have a fair handful of reviewers who aren't afraid to step outside of the "calm, overly expository, perpetually nice promo-receiving blogspot reviewer" stereotype (essentially the worst kind of review for any sort of music, unless you're trying to give out feelgood handjobs to the labels and bands in question). Encouraging people to make less extreme or vitriolic statements would dilute the reviewing content that I actually enjoy tenfold.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:01 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
the same goes for people who recognize several flaws on the record only to give it a 100% anyway.


Several albums I would give a 100% have flaws. But since emotionally I love them and wouldn't change things, I still go with the 100%. If that's not your system, fine, but it seems strange to me to try and push that on other people.

Quote:
Obviously people can score however they want, but I always thought the point of having reviews on the site was to provide a resource to other metalheads, not just for the entertainment of the reviewer (I have to question the motives of bitterman, even when I agree with him). I guess I'm slightly confused at some of the reviews/reviewers accepted in that they remind me of the sort of sub-par stuff that was removed from the archives en masse a while back.

Also to echo some people in the Watain thread, I question practices like those of Noctis occasionally is his negative reviews. "Panzer Division Marduk is the total opposite of what black metal should be." IMHO this kind of statement is useless and brings the reviewer's credibility into question (note that I DO agree with him). Whether or not an album/band adheres to what you think their assigned genre SHOULD be, is something you should look past before you review it. If you are reviewing for a site that's not your personal blog, do your best to have SOME objectivity, assess what the album is trying to do, and review from there.


Well, the point of the site is to inform people and to have well written reviews. If people say "Panzer Division Marduk is the opposite of what black metal should be" and can back it up with an educated and informed statement as to why, I have no problem with that and neither should you. Reviews are just someone's opinion. If they write it well and back it up, there shouldn't be a problem.

With that said, many reviewers here aren't exactly very eloquent and don't really review the music very well, so in that regard I can see what you mean. But even then, "objectivity" is a silly concept - no review will ever be objective if it's got peoples' opinions in it. Stupid thing to say really.
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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:53 pm 
 

All my reviews are objective. Liturgy's first effort is objectively an 85%. All my opinions are laws.
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AnimeDad
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:08 am
Posts: 40
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:41 pm 
 

If something has character, then it must have a few "character flaws" too. 100% has never meant "perfect"; it means the album is a total artistic triumph, all things considered. I think it also suggests a certain historical value, though. To me it's fishy when an album from 2007 has 100%.

From what I've read, 0% is for when you want to be controversial. Give it to a Deathspell Omega release and prove how wicked cool you are!
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:08 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Kveldulfr wrote:
the same goes for people who recognize several flaws on the record only to give it a 100% anyway.


Several albums I would give a 100% have flaws. But since emotionally I love them and wouldn't change things, I still go with the 100%. If that's not your system, fine, but it seems strange to me to try and push that on other people.


I mean with flaws to elements that distract from the enjoyment of the overall piece, like hating a couple of songs or hating the vocal delivery in all tracks but loving the rest and still giving 100% to the album as a whole.

(Am I the only one who imagine an 'IMO' at the end of every post?)
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Alsandair
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:00 pm
Posts: 559
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:42 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
But even then, "objectivity" is a silly concept - no review will ever be objective if it's got peoples' opinions in it. Stupid thing to say really.


Yes I get this. If only you would put some effort into getting what I am saying. Empyreal, as a reviewer would you not say that you try to give credit where due in albums you don't like, and try to consider flaws in albums you love? I'd say most reviewers here and in general do. That what I mean by trying to be objective, considering the other side. I think it's clear when people are not doing this (examples in my other post), and it annoys me. That's all. I'm not saying no one should ever give a 0 or 100, but those scores should be outliers in a reasonable person.

If we can't agree on that then let's agree to disagree.

Edit: I just noticed this other post which is relevant.

Empyreal wrote:
Several albums I would give a 100% have flaws. But since emotionally I love them and wouldn't change things, I still go with the 100%. If that's not your system, fine, but it seems strange to me to try and push that on other people.


Again I get it, we all have these albums, but this kind of exemplifies my problem with using number scores. For the purposes of this site why would you not want your number score to reflect the flaws that you are aware of? Since only YOU fully comprehend the emotional attachment you have to the album, why try to review it in those terms? I'm not saying emotion isn't a part of it, but it shouldn't be the only part on a site like this. The thumbs up/down system people, I'm telling you!

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:55 pm 
 

I'd give credit where it's due when I feel it is. A lot of people try to say because an album features decent musicianship, it should automatically get points. Which I always think is pretty much bullshit. The purpose of a review is to give an opinion on the music, and if I don't feel there is any credit to be given, whatever technical accomplishments an album may have are mud to me.

Inversely, a 100% album that has a few flaws is certainly worth mentioning, yes. But I wouldn't change the score if the overall album is still an artistic triumph, as another guy said, and if the experience was one I feel deserves a perfect score. Nobody is saying emotion should be the only thing in a review. But there is a lot more to consider than just a mechanical bullet-point list of flaws and strengths. It's about the experience of the album as a whole, for me anyway.
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Alsandair
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:59 pm 
 

:beer:

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TheLiberation
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:07 pm 
 

AnimeDad wrote:
I think it also suggests a certain historical value, though. To me it's fishy when an album from 2007 has 100%.

It could be weird when it's a 2013 album, but if some decent time (one-two years) has passed to make that "new album" feeling evaporate, I don't see anything wrong with a well-justified 100%. Also historical value is in all except the uber-obvious (e.g. Black Sabbath) cases subjective.
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BastardHead
Magic Mike

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:31 pm 
 

We've had this thread hundreds of thousands of times and it's always the same thing, but here's some food for thought: The people who start threads like this and/or share/advocate the mindset of extreme scores being either useless or support their outright barring are always either new guys, people who just saw an album they love get trashed (or an album they hate get a great score), and almost always, damn near close to 100% of the time, they are not people who would be considered "reviewers". Now, on the other hand, almost everybody who declares the other side (the system we have is fine, 0%s and 100%s have their place as much as any score, negative reviews are healthy and constant no-meanness-ever is boring and lifeless as shit) are always well established, prolific, and most importantly, both respected and skilled reviewers.

Coincidence? Clearly not.
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AnimeDad
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:48 pm 
 

Quote:
But even then, "objectivity" is a silly concept - no review will ever be objective if it's got peoples' opinions in it. Stupid thing to say really.


So is subjectivity. Nickelback's last album isn't as good as The Beatles' Abbey Road. To believe in pure subjectivity means the opinion of someone who prefers Nickelback is just as valid as someone who prefers Abbey Road. We both know that's not true.
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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:37 pm 
 

Well it IS just as valid, just not a popular opinion which would largely be a good enough sign to ignore the authors taste, but the fact that it is in fact their opinion is still equally as true.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:07 am 
 

Though 100% is an extreme case, it's no more magical a number than 68%. It has its place, as does 0%.
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TheLiberation
Metalhead

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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:15 pm 
 

It does, but the extreme ratings really seem to often be an excuse for really, really, really bad reviews replacing actual content and quality with either elitist bullshit or full-on fanboyism (although the latter is actually less annoying and I've seen few really bad cases of such). Pretty much all experienced reviewers I've seen on this site use extreme ratings very carefully, while if someone has a fuckton of either 0% or 100% reviews, especially the former, it's pretty much guaranteed they're going to suck. We've had an example of this recently from what I saw.

(Also in no way I consider myself a good or experienced or whatever reviewer, especially since I'm damn slow - just noting that as I wasn't sure if BH also meant me in his post - but I think I've read quite a lot on this site over the years)
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:18 pm 
 

I would definitely agree that the bulk of the people who abuse the 0% and 100% ratings are the people who do a small number of reviews on a lark and not the regulars.

I'm definitely careful on what I give 100% to, but still a bit shady on what merits a 0%. I mean, looking back, I don't see why I couldn't have given that Abominable Putridity demo a 5%. With the Six Feet Under review it's not that they didn't know what they were doing instrumentally it's just that I found the basis of what they were doing actively offensive and hated every second of it.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:51 pm 
 

I've yet to give out a zero, but I'm vaguely looking forward to the day. Just to counter PhilFrog's recent Liturgy fandom I may have to take a crack at some of their stuff; I listened to two tracks off Aesthetica the other day and it's definitely a 0% contender if the rest of the album is that awful. I have given one 100% that I still think completely deserves it, though at some point I may go back and re-write the review because it doesn't quite feel as strong as the 100% score would indicate. There's at least one other album out there I'd give a 100%, but I definitely would want to take my time and write more carefully with that one.

As for the OP, man. It really does get extremely tiresome reading people try to mask their being upset about a certain review behind some broader argument about 0's or 100's being too extreme or some similar complaint.
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AcidWorm
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Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:28 pm 
 

markoff_chaney wrote:
If you give an album 0%, it means you think it couldn't be worse. Similarly, if you give an album 100%, it means you think it couldn't be better. Therefore I suggest that anyone giving out these scores should be held to a higher standard than other reviews. The reason that I bring up this point is because I was checking out the page for Backyard Mortuary and found that Serpent_Eve gave their self-titled demo 100%. Now I don't doubt Serpent_Eve enjoys this demo, but I don't think the content of his/her review justifies such a high score. Your thoughts?


So a 1% review should be held to a lower standard than a 0% review? Yeah that makes sense...

I understand what you are getting at that some users throw out 100% and 0% reviews like candy but opinions are opinions and that is what you get when anyone has the potential to submit reviews as long as they are fairly well written. There is no perfect system as every one will have its drawbacks, but this is about as good as it gets.

As has been said many times before it is the content of the review that counts, not as much the score.
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