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shouvince
Veteran

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 2841
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:16 pm 
 

I don't know which is the appropriate thread to voice my concern so here goes...

It came to my notice that there are a fair number of bands which are listed under 'International'? If it's a band with members currently operating from different countries and have releases to their credit, it's fine. But not because band members are expats or if the bands have hopped from country to country.

Eg. http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Per ... 3540270416
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Nephelium/40667

UAE had about 20+ bands listed down on the archives, now it's down to 5. GraveWish has been on a spree on retagging bands under 'international'. I am quite certain that many of them are wrong.

But anyway, if I was someone looking for bands country-wise, I'd miss out on the ones listed under 'international'. I want to make the archives a better place and maybe a solution could be found out? How about we scrap the 'international' tag unless (strictly) it's a collaboration project. The country listed could be the latest where the band is currently playing in, while the liner notes mention the history of their relocation or whathaveyou. Or list down all the countries the band has hopped from, thereby the band appears in both geographical scenes? There are not too many cases, so it won't skew up the original bands per country ratio.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9820
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:08 pm 
 

Ugh, Gravewish is completely wrong on this. The country is for the origin of the band, not where they have relocated, and "International" is for bands where several members are from different countries (not for a band that, say, has 4 Swedish members and 1 American member; Candlemass was still from Sweden even if Rob Lowe isn't Swedish).

International might be OK for Perversion but not Nephelium.

I'm going to send a message to GW, I don't know why he'd be doing that. But then he's never been too bright... :p
_________________
Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9820
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:19 pm 
 

Well it appears in this case, Nephelium is an odd case. A Canadian expat meets an Indian expat in UAE, then they return to Canada and join up with other Canadians. I'd write Canada, I think, not International...
_________________
Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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shouvince
Veteran

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 2841
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:22 pm 
 

Thanks for clarifying :) I get your logic about having majority of members from that particular country. But you see, there's an inherent problem with the middle-east scene, many of the people who are into music/metal are expats. So bands would have members from other countries and you can't help that. So while Perversion has members who are natives of countries like Turkey, Syria, Britain...they are very much a UAE band. Those guys are working in UAE and very much settled there. It would be wrong to tag them under international since they were formed in UAE. What do you say?

I can right the wrongs of GW. Being part of the middleeastern scene earlier, I know all the bands pretty well :) All you have to say is 'go'.

EDIT: Oh I didn't see your post. I know the founding members of Nephelium. They are a canadian band now with two of the original members relocated to toronto and they've recruited (and had lots of lineup changes) guys from that area to form a new avatar of the band. Tough decision on how to categorize them.

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Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2735
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:53 pm 
 

We talked about it in IRC. The idea about "country of origin" is the geographic origin of the band; where it was formed. When you start adding into that equation issues with "nationality", "relocation" and "length of residence," you add unnecessary variables to a piece of information that ought to be basic and straightforward. We have additional notes to explain the little details and extraordinary situations that develop with a band. In the words of a fellow mod, the notes "are there for ad-hoc smoothing over of crap like that." It is in the additional notes field where information about relocation or about nationality would be relevant. This is an important point. When you open up "country of origin" to issues of nationality and residence, it creates all sorts of potential problems: bands who have never been to their country of nationality, but identify with it as their "origin;" bands who identify with a nationality centered on multiple countries (ex. Kurdistan); bands whose members are refugees or immigrants who have bounced around a few countries before finding a more "permanent" home; or even bands whose members do not have permanent homes, but are constantly travelling. The best route is to simply give the "country of origin" as the geographic place of origin: where the band was formed.

This means that in situations where two expats meet in a foreign country, form a band there, and then relocate at an undisclosed date, the "country of origin" is where the band was formed. All the other details of their travels can be placed in the additional notes. This is particularly true for locations which are often heavily populated by expats: Dubai, Paris, London, Montreal, New York... all locations which may be "temporary" residences for their members, but wherein a band was actually started.

The "international" tag, by principle, tends to be used in cases where the full breadth of members within the band tend to reside in multiple countries, and who form a band as a joint effort between those members. Supergroups are a great example of this, as in those cases you tend to have numerous artists from around the world meet up and publish material. Another example would be a band formed by individuals existing across the globe, that contributes individually to an album. With the Internet, the latter can be quite possible. In those cases, the geographic location where the band was formed is varied, because there isn't a single location tied to the formation of the band.

EDIT: Keep in mind that with artist pages, you CAN track where artists are from as distinct from their bands. So, the issue isn't whether there is tracking of the origins of individual members, just that the idea of a band's "country of origin" is tied to the band. You can imagine, as a metaphor, that the band is like it's own entity, with its own birth and death. Its birthplace is its origin.

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shouvince
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 2841
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:01 pm 
 

Yep, you echoed my thoughts. I was a bit confused as to how the 'international' tag came about. Ergo, I brought in the aspect of nationality and other such things. I'd want archives to be simple too as you rightly pointed out. Anyway, thanks guys. I'll go about gallivanting in the archives, correcting the wrongs.

Edit: Yeah I understand that the band is an entity in itself and the country of origin is of the band and not it's band members :)

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