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Should we have a sticky thread for known rip offs?
Yes! great idea, I would definitely use this 97%  97%  [ 58 ]
No! awful idea, it's fine how it is 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 60
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dreadmeat
emere vendere cambire

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:50 am
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:15 am 
 

What do we think about this?
viewtopic.php?p=2467754#p2467754
CardsOfWar wrote:
Can we perhaps get a stickied thread for general rip-off warnings?
I like this idea but not sure how we'd 'implement' it, a forum full of sticky rip off threads doesn't look too cool.
People will search, find the threads and post in them if they want to so they will rise to the top again.
We could possibly have a sub-subforum in the Marketplace for this, any super über mods reading this have an opinion? how about the rest of you?
Similar to how The Landfill is nested is what I'm thinking

I've added a poll, it's by no means official but could be interesting
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false_icon
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Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:52 am
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:42 am 
 

Great idea, if we can also include discogs/ebay/distro ripp-offs, not only the ones we might deal with on MA.
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teh_Foxx0rz
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 9:38 am
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:10 pm 
 

I agree with the idea of the above as well, although there might need to be a bit more organisation if that were the case of course.

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dreadmeat
emere vendere cambire

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:50 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:15 pm 
 

false_icon wrote:
Great idea, if we can also include discogs/ebay/distro ripp-offs, not only the ones we might deal with on MA.
Hell yes, definitely.
teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
I agree with the idea of the above as well, although there might need to be a bit more organisation if that were the case of course.
we'll think of something.

I'm moving this to Metal Discussion for a bit, it's unanimous so far but only 23 votes...
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Ecliptik
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Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:58 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:54 pm 
 

Great idea, I'm all for it.

EDIT: I may have missed this point if it had already been brought up in one of the other threads, but how would any sort of quality control be enforced? I.E., making sure all claims are legitimate and not just one buyers' bad experience with a seller? How many separate claims would it take in order to make a seller a "known rip-off"?


Last edited by Ecliptik on Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:02 pm 
 

Some measures would have to be taken to avoid clutter while remaining updated, but if it can be done appropriately, I don't see why it would be detrimental.
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dreadmeat
emere vendere cambire

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:47 pm 
 

Jesse Bly
Blake Judd
Frank Lewa

will all be in there + their pseudonyms/aliases
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Diamhea
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:35 pm 
 

We shouldn't be taking sides here, which may be difficult if we designate an official thread to document such transgressions. So much of this is based on reputation, just like the buying/selling/trading boards; at what point is a ripoff considered verified to the point of inclusion? The line seems somewhat diffused and arbitrary in this regard. Perchance it could work as a way to compile a list of sorts, but this shouldn't be advertised as functioning in an official capacity.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:12 pm 
 

I don't trade here by any stretch, but I can see issues cropping up. Echoing Ecliptik's post, communication breakdown occurs for a variety of reasons. It is important to clarify the difference between intentional rip offs and others. For example, your internet connection gets cut off through no fault of your own, or some health issue crops up. I don't know how these would be qualified compared to standard rip off merchants though.
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Derigin
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Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:34 pm 
 

Hmm... I have some concerns:

One concern is exactly what Diamhea mentioned. Imagine that you are a seller/buyer/trader that relies on having a good reputation to continue doing what you're doing. Someone hates you and decides to make you out as a rip-off artist. If we went through with this idea as it is currently considered, we would then document that person as a rip-off and become liable for perpetuating that lie. This goes against what Metal Archives is all about. Our primary purpose is to "tell it as it is" and to document facts about bands. When we start going native and taking a stance on something that isn't objectively verifiable, it's at that point that we lose focus. Although there are clearly rip-off artists that are easy enough to verify, we cannot guarantee this for all. I'd rather not see Metal Archives become liable for slander if it takes an "official" stance on an alleged rip-off artist... even if multiple people may claim that person/company to be a rip-off or even if it's disputed whether it was simply a breakdown in communication.

My other concern is related to the workload involved. Any action that we take that requires us to manage a list of rip-off artists or designate someone as such involves a certain level of policing and organization. I can imagine you would be good for that, dreadmeat, but management to any degree would add onto your workload. If one day you decide to no longer stay with us, then it's possible that this listing would soon become outdated. Whatever decision we take, if it involves official management it could very well end up becoming a hassle over time.

That said, it would be nice if we did have some better way of making it known who is and who isn't a rip-off, at least according to the people who use this site. A centralized information resource. The poll on this thread even suggests most folks would want that. My ideal solution would be one where the site wouldn't have to be liable for either taking a stance, one way or another, on any specific alleged rip-off artist. I'd ideally also like to see a solution that wouldn't increase any one mod's workload or would quickly go outdated if it ends up being left on its own for a while.

One solution would be to have a thread designated for users to simply note who they believe to be rip-off artists. Similar to our feedback threads in the Trading and Buying/Selling forums, this thread would be a general topic that would involve little policing on our side. The problem with this thread is that it may be a bit of a hassle to search it, and that's not always clear for people who want to make sure that the business partner they're dealing with is good or bad. A single thread, over time, would become very cluttered and disjointed with all the posts that people would make about different individuals.

Alternative Solution: The other solution I had is to take the old feedback threads you find in the buying/selling/trading forums and create a "Feedback Center" forum with the same general idea, instead. The forum could be used for both positive and negative feedback. There could be a single thread on each business partner - individual, company, or otherwise. Let's say you are a potential buyer or trader and you're looking for information on "Nochielo" as a good seller/trader. You could go to the forum and search to see if he has a thread. Oh look, he has a thread. You can check it and see what other people have to say about him. Is he good? Do they think he's a rip-off? What reasons do they give? We could also apply this to companies and distros; there could be a thread about NWN, for example. In this scenario, we - as a site - simply provide the place for people to give either good or bad feedback on an individual or company. It may involve some policing to make sure people remain cordial and that there are no duplicate threads or sockpuppet abuse, but at least no staff member has to constantly take time to maintain a list. How do people feel about this idea? Would it be one that's worth pursuing?

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CardsOfWar
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Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:33 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:32 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Alternative Solution: The other solution I had is to take the old feedback threads you find in the buying/selling/trading forums and create a "Feedback Center" forum with the same general idea, instead. The forum could be used for both positive and negative feedback. There could be a single thread on each business partner - individual, company, or otherwise. Let's say you are a potential buyer or trader and you're looking for information on "Nochielo" as a good seller/trader. You could go to the forum and search to see if he has a thread. Oh look, he has a thread. You can check it and see what other people have to say about him. Is he good? Do they think he's a rip-off? What reasons do they give? We could also apply this to companies and distros; there could be a thread about NWN, for example. In this scenario, we - as a site - simply provide the place for people to give either good or bad feedback on an individual or company. It may involve some policing to make sure people remain cordial and that there are no duplicate threads or sockpuppet abuse, but at least no staff member has to constantly take time to maintain a list. How do people feel about this idea? Would it be one that's worth pursuing?


For what it's worth, I think that's the best idea as well. Obviously there would need to be a stickied thread directory or something so that threads are still easily accessible as they get to the back pages...
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Cursarion
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:40 pm 
 

CardsOfWar wrote:
For what it's worth, I think that's the best idea as well. Obviously there would need to be a stickied thread directory or something so that threads are still easily accessible as they get to the back pages...

Are you saying it's hard to access threads that are on page 2 or 3?
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CardsOfWar
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:53 pm 
 

No, but when a thread could be on any one of all the possible back pages, it would certainly be a bit of a chore to track down.
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Cursarion
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:57 pm 
 

Well, not really... You can actually use the search function. You can also order threads by the subject, so you can browse alphabetically.

Maintaining a list would almost defeat the purpose of having a subforum.
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CardsOfWar
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:10 am 
 

I knew about the search, but I didn't know about being able to order threads alphabetically. I suppose a directory wouldn't really be needed... My bad people, sorry.
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dreadmeat
emere vendere cambire

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:23 am 
 

Cogs are turning in the background guys :nods:
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androdion
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:52 am 
 

Yeah, the "alternative solution" sounds like the best possible way of doing things. Visible yet simple and neutral from the Mods' standpoint.
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dreadmeat
emere vendere cambire

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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:30 am 
 

Yes! great idea, I would definitely use this 96% 96% [ 46 ] x
No! awful idea, it's fine how it is 4% 4% [ 2 ]

:lol:



Sorry, that just popped into my head after seeing the votes just now
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Indecency
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Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:15 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:13 pm 
 

I feel like the majority answer to this poll was already known long before the poll was made.

Should we have a sticky thread for known rip offs?
Yes! I don't want to be scammed! 96% 96% [ 48 ] x
Shh! You're ruining my business! 4% 4% [ 2 ]

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the_raytownian
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:05 pm 
 

Honestly, I think a better, more intuitive feature would be a search function like the archive has for everything else, with searchable seller handles/companies/names and documentation of their transgressions.

It's also a lot more threatening to assholes "in the scene" than a sticky thread on some forum.

Obviously, contributions should only be accepted with a sufficient amount of proof... Known bootleggers and thieves are abound, though, and a lot of them still get away with it because they're on the fringe "enough" that casual buyers and newcomers may not recognize their common bootlegs on sites like ebay.

Having a repository of info with searchable usernames/aliases of confirmed, repeat offenders including screenshots of bootlegs vs. genuine articles seems like a fucking cool idea. It's depressing watching people shell out cash for the same crappy demo bootlegs from the same sellers on ebay because they didn't research them sufficiently. Sometimes the boots are only slightly different, too, which sometimes makes it difficult, even for more cautious buyers.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:25 pm 
 

I got the approval of the owners to go ahead with creating the feedback forum, so I'll do that asap and lay out some ground rules for it.

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dreadmeat
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:37 pm 
 

Awesome, so where when what how and who? :lol:

An entire sub-forum for feedback in here is what I'm hoping for: viewforum.php?f=14
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:33 pm 
 

It's on the way.

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:28 am 
 

And it's up and active.

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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:32 pm 
 

Is it?

Obviously too late to be posting if I can't notice a whole other forum on the front page. My bad. :roll:

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dreadmeat
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:51 am 
 

Well this link viewforum.php?f=14 is broken [actually all the 'heading links' are broken]
But you can see it here viewforum.php?f=22

Image
http://i.imgur.com/3tLYCqX.jpg
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