Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
CF_Mono
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 1503
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:13 pm 
 

After wanting to see how many bands were tagged deathgrind in the archives, searching the term under music genre only produced one result. Observe:

http://www.metal-archives.com/search?se ... band_genre

I find it hard to believe someone only thought of this tag in one instance, so I'm assuming it's just not an accepted tag and this is mistagged. Is this correct?
_________________
Doom or be doomed...
My current band. Wretched doom trio from NY.

Top
 Profile  
Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 6015
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:07 am 
 

Try "death metal/grindcore". The contracted version has never been used for the genre field for whatever reason, that one instance is an aberration.
_________________
Junge.

Last.fm | Collection

Top
 Profile  
LeMiserable
Milhouse van Houten

Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:42 am
Posts: 503
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:49 am 
 

Well, why is it not deathgrind? Makes sense to me, we cite deathcore as a valid genre while it's as much a fusion genre as deathgrind. And thereby, most people know deathgrind simply as deathgrind, and rarely as death metal/grindcore. It could also prevent a lot of genre field clotting.
_________________
tomcat_ha about me bashing kluseba's musical taste wrote:
i would normally use the saying pot calling the kettle black but in your case its more like a black hole calling a kettle black.

Top
 Profile  
Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 6015
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:56 am 
 

I guess? Perhaps it just seemed like an informal, colloquial variant of "death metal/grindcore", like "deathcrust", "trad doom" or adding "thrash" without the "metal", something not quite "appropriate" for the field. So the spelled-out form is preferred. Perhaps it's just chance, a chosen standard that caught on. I never really thought much about it, don't care either way. If some staffer wants to systematically change it, I certainly won't stop them (though gotta be careful, there's probably lots of bands that are death metal and grind, but not exactly deathgrind...).

On the other hand, this might make it harder for people to search for the bands in question. Some might think "this band played a mixture of death metal and grindcore" and type in one or both. And neither will yield results. I don't think it's quite as established and dominant as "deathcore", but feel free to correct me.

Aaaaaaal(hadis)?
_________________
Junge.

Last.fm | Collection

Top
 Profile  
Alhadis
Madder Max

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 3621
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:39 am 
 

Despite what Wikipedia will tell you (:rolleyes:), there's actually no formal definition of what "deathgrind" is.

The term did indeed catch on as a colloquialism, presumably to describe bands that play a more obvious hybrid of death metal and grindcore; taking in mind that death metal/grindcore is NOT necessarily the same as grindcore bands who play with death metal-fuelled riffs... e.g., Wormrot and Insect Warfare are an example of the latter). Confusingly though, both camps get slapped with the "deathgrind" tag, though the former is really only deserving of it, rather than the latter.

Somebody obviously submitted a band with "deathgrind" as an abbreviation of "death metal/grindcore", so it should be expanded. And no, comparing deathgrind with "deathcore" is absurd. There's no etymological parallel between the terms; they both simply start with the word "death-".
_________________
J_Ason wrote:
grinder12345 wrote:
And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

Top
 Profile  
LeMiserable
Milhouse van Houten

Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:42 am
Posts: 503
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:40 am 
 

Well, to be completely honest, MA might well be the only site I've seen describing deathgrind as "death metal/grindcore". I'm not sure, it just looks unnecessary to me when you realize deathgrind is a well-established genre. It's as legit as basically any other genre.

And if you talk about bands that play death metal and grindcore, but aren't quite deathgrind, we could put them as "Death Metal, Grindcore", but I really feel deathgrind should be a legit genre, otherwise the deathcore instead of death metal/metalcore doesn't make sense either.

And no, I'm not comparing them, I'm just saying that if deathcore is an established genre, then why shouldn't deathgrind be? It's been in existence far, far longer than deathcore. I just don't see why not.
_________________
tomcat_ha about me bashing kluseba's musical taste wrote:
i would normally use the saying pot calling the kettle black but in your case its more like a black hole calling a kettle black.

Top
 Profile  
Alhadis
Madder Max

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 3621
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:50 am 
 

Deathgrind isn't an "established genre" at all. Both grindcore and death metal are, obviously, "well-established genres". There's some overlap, yes, because both genres have similarities. That overlap is a blurry region where the term "deathgrind" tends to get thrown to describe bands that fall anywhere within that boundary. Often inaccurately.

Deathcore, on the other hand, is an amalgamation of death metal and hardcore, not metalcore (which is in itself a hybrid genre of metal and hardcore). There's no overlap between the former pair of genres. I won't elaborate on the latter, as that's outside my area of expertise, but hopefully you're picking up what I'm putting down.
_________________
J_Ason wrote:
grinder12345 wrote:
And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

Top
 Profile  
LeMiserable
Milhouse van Houten

Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:42 am
Posts: 503
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:56 am 
 

Fair points.

BUT, do you know Cancerous Womb by any chance? They're listed as "Death Metal/Grindcore" on MA. But you know, I wouldn't call them death metal nor grindcore. They're what pure deathgrind is to me. It's not just death metal fused with grindcore, it has completely different song structures, different kinds of vocals and completely different ideas than either.

I feel that deathgrind isn't just a mere combination of death metal and grindcore. When you dig a little deeper you can actually hear a clear difference between actual deathgrind bands and bands that merely mix death metal and grindcore together.

I'd actually say bands like early Dying Fetus and early Bolt Thrower are true "Death Metal/Grindcore" bands. But when you hear bands like Cephalic Carnage, Cancerous Womb or Misery Index, I would say these bands are really deathgrind more than just a combination of both.

But I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree here.
_________________
tomcat_ha about me bashing kluseba's musical taste wrote:
i would normally use the saying pot calling the kettle black but in your case its more like a black hole calling a kettle black.


Last edited by LeMiserable on Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 6015
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:57 am 
 

From looking at this discussion, I think in the interest of keeping things clear and simple we should keep the current standard. :P
_________________
Junge.

Last.fm | Collection

Top
 Profile  
Alhadis
Madder Max

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 3621
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:05 am 
 

:facepalm: I'm at a loss as to how seriously I should continue taking this thread...

The "distinction" you're hearing is really just a more balanced infusion of death metal and grind: if a band infuses both styles well, that doesn't suddenly become a subgenre. This line of thinking is exactly why we have so many plebs clogging up metal discussion boards with topics of bullshit genres (a stone's throw away from "Aliencore is a more electronically-influenced subgenre of deathcore, you can hear how the electronic elements shape the music's atmosphere").

You're welcome to keep telling yourself deathgrind is a legitimate, tangible genre with well-established borders separating it from its neighbours "death metal/grindcore" and "metallic influenced grindcore", but the only person you're kidding is yourself.
_________________
J_Ason wrote:
grinder12345 wrote:
And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

Top
 Profile  
LeMiserable
Milhouse van Houten

Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:42 am
Posts: 503
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:10 am 
 

Alhadis wrote:
:facepalm: I'm at a loss as to how seriously I should continue taking this thread...

The "distinction" you're hearing is really just a more balanced infusion of death metal and grind: if a band infuses both styles well, that doesn't suddenly become a subgenre. This line of thinking is exactly why we have so many plebs clogging up metal discussion boards with topics of bullshit genres (a stone's throw away from "Aliencore is a more electronically-influenced subgenre of deathcore, you can hear how the electronic elements shape the music's atmosphere").

You're welcome to keep telling yourself deathgrind is a legitimate, tangible genre with well-established borders separating it from its neighbours "death metal/grindcore" and "metallic influenced grindcore", but the only person you're kidding is yourself.


I'm fine with keeping stuff as it is, because death metal/grindcore describes music just as well (if not even more precise) as deathgrind. I just felt/feel that deathgrind is established enough to be added as its own genre, but if mods feel it should stay at death metal/grindcore then I'm fine with it, I just felt/feel it clogs the genre field up a bit when it doesn't have to.

I kinda wanna talk about slam now :( maybe not
_________________
tomcat_ha about me bashing kluseba's musical taste wrote:
i would normally use the saying pot calling the kettle black but in your case its more like a black hole calling a kettle black.

Top
 Profile  
Alhadis
Madder Max

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 3621
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:15 am 
 

And that cinches what I suspected: you'd rather the neat, concise and commonly-used shorthand of "deathgrind" than looking at something that strikes you as superfluous and excessive. :p That's no reason to start marshalling contrived rationale on some perceived difference in a band's songwriting, and how it's reflected by the band's supposed subgenre.
_________________
J_Ason wrote:
grinder12345 wrote:
And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

Top
 Profile  
CF_Mono
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 1503
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:39 am 
 

Alhadis wrote:
And that cinches what I suspected: you'd rather the neat, concise and commonly-used shorthand of "deathgrind" than looking at something that strikes you as superfluous and excessive.

Okay, this is fair enough.

I know I shouldn't keep posting stuff, because everyone's going to disagree :lol:, but first of all, it is used quite widely: https://bandcamp.com/tag/deathgrind

Second of all: I might agree that it's not an accurately defined genre, but it is a description of what music sounds like which is what a lot of tagging here does.

Also, if it means anything (and probably not, this is just for speculation at this piont), shred yields multiple results, as does dark metal. You also have extreme metal produce results, and there are a few, but only one solitary band is labeled solely "extreme metal" and nothing else. For grind related genres, goregrind yields multiple results, as well as grind 'n' roll. Another anomaly, pornogrind, yields one (which will probably be changed). I was surprised to see not war metal nor bestial black metal turn up despite their popular usage.

Also also, and this is very anecdotal, but if you don't want to see some really nit-picky inconsistencies, don't look at the death/thrash tag. There's gotta be some kind of script you could write that would make them all uniform right?
_________________
Doom or be doomed...
My current band. Wretched doom trio from NY.

Top
 Profile  
Alhadis
Madder Max

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:35 am
Posts: 3621
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:14 am 
 

CF_Mono wrote:
... but first of all, it is used quite widely: https://bandcamp.com/tag/deathgrind

Uh, nowhere was it stated otherwise, dude. I wasn't saying that the term wasn't widely-used, I was saying that it's not a concrete subgenre distinct from either of the genres it's composed from.

Quote:
Second of all: I might agree that it's not an accurately defined genre, but it is a description of what music sounds like which is what a lot of tagging here does.

... I can tell you haven't really bothered reading the thread. :ugh:

Regarding the other points (which're REALLY starting to drag this thread outside the original point of discussion...)

Goregrind is a completely different scenario altogether, there's a very obvious difference between grindcore and goregrind (as for how "pornogrind" slipped through, I couldn't possibly guess...). And grind n' roll isn't s very commonly-played style (probably because it's so shit :p :lol:), but the nature of a band fusing rock-and-roll elements with grindcore in the same manner as death n' roll is rather worthy of warranting classification.

I'm really not sure what your point is, dude. Are you saying that every genre used on the site that points to a very specific style or fusion of them was admitted to the database arbitrarily? :s For a start, the "dark metal" tag is one that's been on the "to fix" roster for a while: a good majority of bands with that genre were submitted by users with that in their genre fields because their exact genre is a vague one (and a submitter felt it easier to simply lump it under the ever-so-vague umbrella of "dark metal"), or because not enough samples were available at the time of submission that an accurate account of the band's genre could be reliably gauged.
_________________
J_Ason wrote:
grinder12345 wrote:
And you says that metal is about the riffs, that is bollocks, cause then black and death bands wouldn't get accepted, cause the play termolo-riffs.

they payl termolo! not real riff!

Top
 Profile  
Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 6015
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:36 am 
 

@Thrashcore: I've been aware of that tag for a while and have been attempting to fix it, but the nature of its misapplication (and the lack of samples) can make that tricky. Still, the list of thrashcore bands on here used to be considerably longer; I've already edited quite a number of them (most are either crossover thrash [as I understand it the two terms were/are sometimes used synonymously, but we like to stick with one to avoid confusion with the punk genre] or some mixture of newer metalcore/hardcore and thrash).

Shred seems straightforward to me, both as a musical term and addition to the genre field.

Extreme metal, we try to avoid/eradicate it whenever possible, but some bands just defy attempts to divide their genre any further.

Dark metal is just a mess, with some small kernel of useful, constant meaning in there, but we're wary of it and bands with that genre are certainly in our crosshairs.

I'll fix those ill-formatted death/thrash cases.
_________________
Junge.

Last.fm | Collection

Top
 Profile  
CF_Mono
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 1503
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:40 pm 
 

Alhadis wrote:
I'm really not sure what your point is, dude.

My point is that I think it's a fine defense to say that death metal/grindcore suffices where deathgrind exists, but to assert that Deathgrind should be excluded because it's something different is a little silly. If a the first response to this thread was just "we're going to use death metal/grindcore in place of deathgrind because it's more formal" the thread wold have stopped there and I wouldn't feel inclined to disagree.
_________________
Doom or be doomed...
My current band. Wretched doom trio from NY.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group