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tomcat_ha
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:18 am 
 

There is something that i have noticed for a while. MA is quite clear and obvious when it comes to metalcore and deathcore influenced metal. However when it comes to bands that are influenced by less let me put it this way(let me put it this way) trendy forms of hardcore the archives seem to be a bit inconsistent. Not only when it comes to accepting bands but also when it comes to accurate genre tags.
So I think this place needs a debate on this to get everything more in 1 line.
In the past i have submitted a few reports on bands wrongly tagged and submitted one band that was rejected (understandably) but also got a band rejected that somehow got through while being called death/grind when it was blatant crust with a few crustgrind songs. It seems that often that a band with significant hardcore influence of some hardcore subgenre also gets the the /thrash added to its genre when that often is wrong.

Some examples of inaccuracies:
California love was originally labled grindcore/thrash and that was really inaccurate but i got that changed.
I also got nekrofilth changed because they had no crossover influence but did have full on hardcore
Another example is corrupt moral altar who definitely did not just play straight up normal grindcore.
Half of my reports are basically on this.

I am also slightly puzzled by how very crusty bands like bombstrike are in when something quite a bit more metallic like Oathbreaker from belgium is not.

Why this thread? Because i am lazy and slow at going through all the bands extensively enough to actually go submit reports.

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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
Posts: 5159
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:19 pm 
 

There is one thing I'm aboard with you, and that is on crust/PV bands on MA. It seems rather strange that Weekend Nachos is listed as PV/Sludge when the sludge portion doesn't sound metal to me (hey, it's metallic indeed but so is a lot of crust) and for instance Nails aren't, and their basis is mostly the same. And no, I'm not advocating that Nails should be added as well, just giving an example. To me neither of those two bands is metal. I don't mean to imply that my judgement is better than the Mod's but I think some clarification on what kinds of sludge aren't metal would be in order. The same for crust really. I mean, how is it that a band like Black Hole Of Calcutta is considered metal? I can understand Oathbreaker not being here, but then BHOC is when they're basically a punk band? And they're listed as "Blackened Crust/Sludge/Doom Metal"?!

But hey, maybe I'm just tripping here. I do feel that the line has been a bit blurry over the past few years when it comes to crust/crossover/sludge in here.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:43 pm 
 

I might be a bit more liberal than you when it comes to crust/hardcore. But i do think weekend nachos are more metallic than Nails. I've seen a very high quality live video and i've seen weekend nachos with my own eyes. I am not quite sure they belong yet despite listening to them for a while now. California Love is a good example of a powerviolence band that should stay on though.

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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:05 pm 
 

I just have the opinion that a lot of majorly hardcore/punk bands are listed on MA because they have "sludge" or "doom" appended to it, when I don't find much metallic predominance in them. This goes a bit hand in hand with the whole "metallic vs non-metallic drone", know what I mean?

But I'm just putting out an opinion, I know I may end up being handed the "it's our decision" card. But then again I felt the need to expose it anyway. :)
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:29 am 
 

i've seen some of that too however the most obvious and worst transgressions just got the /thrash and got accepted. I find that a lot of people are not very familiar with hardcore and thus when a band has a major hardcore/punk influence just hear that part of thrash so to say and think that they are thrashy. I've seen this with for example Infernal Stronghold, i showed them to a bunch of people in black metal and they said that it was really thrashy but what they heard was actually mostly crust/hardcore.

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:47 pm 
 

There is more acceptance of those kinds of bands amongst metalheads on a general taste level, not surprised that has been reflected in acceptances on MA when it is happening on a case by case basis. Sounds like the thing to do is make a list of all the iffy bands, work out a standard, and apply it to all at the same time so it can form a consistent precedent.
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Azmodes
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:53 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
There is more acceptance of those kinds of bands amongst metalheads on a general taste level, not surprised that has been reflected in acceptances on MA when it is happening on a case by case basis. Sounds like the thing to do is make a list of all the iffy bands, work out a standard, and apply it to all at the same time so it can form a consistent precedent.

Something like that is already happening in the internal forum.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:14 pm 
 

Seitanik.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:20 pm 
 

but like i said its not just about rejecting unacceptable bands/bringing in bands that should be. I hope something more is done about hardcore awareness to get rid of that /thrash.

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Azmodes
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:33 pm 
 

Well, please do post any examples in the appropriate thread (wrong genre or cleansing, whichever applies).

Also, are you saying that Infernal Stronghold should be deleted for being punk? Or that the thrash tag should be removed?
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BastardHead
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:38 am 
 

Yeah like Az said we do have a thread in the special No Noobs Allowed forum, but we haven't really dome much with it in a while (it was really active when it started a few months ago), but I think the generally hard to define ambiguousness of these bands, plus the fact that only a handful of mods are particularly knowledgeable on them means that progress is generally slow. If you've got examples then by all means help us out by mentioning them.
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androdion
Metal freak

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Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:11 pm 
 

Well, to pick up where I was heading, I think the powerviolence stuff shouldn't be on the site because you don't get punkier than PV. Even in the case of crust seeing bands included because they have metallic bits is kind of nonsensical to me because crust is punk. I think that it should come down more to a "either or" stance when it comes to bands that are radically based on punk but still have metallic elements. Like either they have a full-blown unambiguous metal album or they shouldn't be listed here. But then again that's already the current set of rules right? I just think that there are bands that tend to be more about punk than metal, and because they have metallic aspects they are deemed as metal. But I'm probably contradicting myself a ton of times in such a short post...

I know you guys are few and do this by commitment to the MA project, and I'm far from the "no metal no here" crusader that my words seem to imply, but there seems to be a great amount of punk sinking into the "Metal Archives" on the basis of crossing over a few barriers. Or maybe I'm just getting older and more closed-minded. :lol:
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:48 pm 
 

Azmodes wrote:
Well, please do post any examples in the appropriate thread (wrong genre or cleansing, whichever applies).

Also, are you saying that Infernal Stronghold should be deleted for being punk? Or that the thrash tag should be removed?


you know i report when i notice something is wrong and it is like that for multiple releases.

I dont really think infernal stronghold are all that thrashy aye. I just hear hardcore. However its not just that band there are multiple bands floating around having overly simplified tags because a lot of people here are not deeply into hardcore etc.
As for crust. There is a lot of metallic crust aka stenchcore. Quite a bit of it is death metallic some of it is sorta thrashy like the Axegrinder album. Also not all death/crust is similar. Some is slow like Stormcrow and some is quite d-beaty.

Also on powerviolence. Powerviolence in itself is punk thats for sure. However you can combine powerviolence traits with more metallic traits like California Love. Even Assück has noticeable powerviolence elements.

I am just repeating myself here so ill shut up.

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4761
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:04 am 
 

Maybe it would be more expedient to just ban all punk influenced bands? :)
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tomcat_ha
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:29 pm 
 

what about we remove everything that is not uspm? That way we can be sure that only the REALEST metal bands are on.

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bug_man
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 12:11 am
Posts: 177
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:13 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Maybe it would be more expedient to just ban all punk influenced bands? :)

Ah, so you'll be removing Motorhead, Iron maiden and Venom then

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:51 pm 
 

Better fewer but better. :P
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