The one song on YouTube has very little variety and so I can see where that idea might arise. Could I forward you another track for a second look?

Yeah, I mean I was really trying to get beyond the noisy production, but the riffs wouldn't materialise. Feel free to send me additional samples (two tracks would be better, though; otherwise it would be a 50/50 best case scenario).

Will do. There are a couple of songs less reliant on the "wall of sound" effect where I feel the riffs/progressions really equate black metal (maybe "Raw Black Metal/Noise" would have been a better descriptor?), especially in the slow and mid paced parts when the cymbals aren't so over encompassing. But I'll send additional tracks to you and await your decision. Thanks for your time.

Well, it still doesn't really qualify as its own band entry. However, after investigating the circumstances and discussing them with derigin, we determined that there wasn't really a reason to not include it in the V8 discography as there was no real question to its legitimacy, someone just made a compelling point years ago and a former moderator agreed with it. However, there isn't a real question to its legitimacy, which is a significant factor in adding it. There never seemed to be a legal challenge over this album, which was released by a major label (MCA), only some overzealous fans challenging it.

Good man. Thats the best to do, add the album to the V8 discography. Thanks for thinking again about it.

Should I add it myself?

I added the album, removed the note to not add it, and added the lineup as the "live" lineup for 1996 to differentiate it from the permanent formation of the band. Feel free to check my work, I don't think I screwed anything up.

Thanks Zodijackyl, Ill check it.

I will add the re-release info for this year!

Best, FS

Azmodes comment on Botanist being blacklisted from the archives.


Half the songs are tremelo'd with blast beats in the background. Tremolo riff's and drum blasting isn't metal anymore? Ever heard of black metal? Why is this song, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfoDSM2DSYU, not metal? C'mon mods, let's start making some sense here. Are you guys just biased or are you ever going to come up with a reason that wouldn't poll as balogna with the community members here?

It's interesting you consider yourselves ( all >12 of you deciding these matters) more of an authority on the matter than the community itself. Every day that goes by there's someone browsing this site thinking "what deaf dingus at Metal Archives is responsible for Botanist not being in the archives?". This absolutely reeks of moderators listening to 5 seconds of a song, hearing a single part that isn't completely metal, and dismissing it. It's practically the same thing every time someone mentions Botanist on this board. A mod says "lack of metal riffs" as if there's some sort of written law somewhere that a metal riff has to be an exact sequence of notes that has already been played by another metal band before. Once again, tremolo riffs aren't metal? The grand-dulcimer equivalent of power-chord riffing isn't metal?

Where's the concern for being comprehensive? The band and the fans know the music is experimental, but ultimately metal. There are many bands in the archives that merely have a fraction of their discography containing a few metal elements and they seem to make it on absolutely fine. The only people who don't seem to think so are a handful of higher ups on this board. It's your guys' decision, sure, but I'm surprised you guys haven't realized everyone thinks you guys are might be off on this particular matter. Do you guys have a cookie-cutter idea of what things have to be in order to be considered metal? You'd think if the aesthetics, aggression and composition matched up (which Botanist does 100%), it'd be enough. This weird "x-factor" you're looking for is ridiculous.

I know it's a hammered dulcimer, but this sounds like the harpsichord synth sound. Like someone pinging keyboards quickly with blast beats under it. The band in general sounds like some sorta new wave-influenced synth rock mixed with atmospheric post-rock and that awful MIDI keyboard "epic black metal" band that came up a couple days ago.

edit:



We don't really consider ourselves an authority, we just run our site and wonder why we have a community of folks like yourself writing page-long rants about us when you disagree.



Well, it is a written rule, written in the rules of this site. We have a "long-ass, rambling, read-before-complaining-only version" of our rules for folks like yourself.

This was the stance I held that led me to believe Botanist should be here, until I listened to their albums end-to-end and discovered that that other half of their music is jangly SimCity music with weird time signatures. The mods aren't going to let in a band because they sound "half-metal".

It is only allowable if it is SimTown.

I understand the argument you're trying to make so I'll roll with it. So because you liken the sound of the used string instrument to something that isn't metal, it's automatically not metal? Iron Maiden's guitar sound could be out of an 80's rock band, yet no one here is excluding them from the archives for that. Seems petty.

Furthermore I'm just not detecting any unanimously agreed-upon logic. Just mods going "eh...not feeling it". When someone says "lack of metal riffs", that's not the same thing as "lacks the metal sound". What determines a metal riff? How it sounds or how it's played? The majority of Circle of Ouroborus doesn't sound anything like what people consider to be metal here - and they largely use acoustic instruments, yet they had no issues making it onto the archives. It seems like it could be just as easy for you to call COO atmospheric post-rock and kick them off the archives too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vAhLV7Ib-4). How can one argue that COO is metal while arguing Botanist isn't? They both retain elements of metal but undoubtedly steered off in experimental paths. But those elements are still there and I'm not sure how they can be so easily ignored.

I'm not detecting any synth sound whatsoever. No more synth sounding than distorted tremelo-picked notes on a guitar at least. To me it sounds like raw, distorted piano strings being hit in a fashion that's absolutely reminiscent of what everyone has come to known about the metal - being played along drumming that is also the same as any other metal band in the archives, vocals, so on and so forth. If you can find a new-wave influenced synth rock band that sounds similar to this, please, link it to me and show me the light. I think I'd have a much easier time finding a black metal band that sounds similar. Of course, when using a different instrument, it enables him to play rather unusual sets of notes creating a completely different sound that what people are used to in metal. I don't see how taking advantage of different instruments to take an existing sound in a slightly new, different direction is worth condemning here.

I'm done poking at it, but you at least know one of your long-time community member's stances on the subject, and that's worth my time alone.



How do you explain Circle of Ouroborus being on the archives then? Good luck...

What about Summoning? Summoning is ambient music - not metal in the least. Why is Summoning on the archives? No offense but I feel like the arguments being presented have the strength of swiss cheese. Every point you make I promise I can provide a counter-example of a band that was included in the archive. Being "half-metal" isn't the issue here, and if it were "half-metal", how do you argue that not the greater half of it is metal? The drumming and vocals are metal. That's 2/3 - 66%, much more than half. Summoning's sound can be boiled down to black metal vocals over synths with programmed drumming. Not many metal riffs to be found there...




I'm sorry, are you being serious or is that a really half-baked attempt at an insult? I didn't see that rule anywhere in there. If you are serious, please show me this rule.

The only rule I'm seeing being put to use here is "mods right, users wrong - don't debate because we don't do that, we just make rules". You guys clearly put so much deliberation on the thought of what qualifies as "metal" but people here seem to afraid back up the conclusions of what these deliberations led to. Could it be that they hold no weight? Instead of clarifying and explaining rules, we just get cheap jokes and hollow insults. Really makes a lot of sense. I didn't just make this thread because I've heard about Botanist but it seems like too often I see people asking about why the band isn't included on the archives (like today), and while I have no personal stake in the matter, it's a shame there still hasn't been any solid reasoning against it after all these years. It's just the same lame jokes and ridiculous comparisons.

Circle of Ouroborus were accepted in 2005 when they only had one release, the "Introitus" demo, which is black metal.

Fair enough. So the guy from Botanist just needs to re-record two of his songs with a metal sounding guitar, release it as a demo, and he's in?

I guess if that individual cared enough to be on the archives, he'd be on here by now. Sorry for pestering you guys. It was something on my mind.

You'll have to take my word for it, but you'll see it if you click on "Rules" on any page on the site. Perhaps you'll have to read that before complaining. From the detailed version, not even the long-ass, rambling, read-before-complaining-only version below that: "First and foremost, for a band to be metal, it must have metal riffs."



I'd start with their first album, don't turn it off after five seconds into the ambient intro as you accused us of doing, and you'll find that they're a black metal band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrqKE9NNUts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHAzaU4wLlA



Alongside that Sum 41 thrash song in the rules as an example of people who can fuck off, sure.

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/%D0 ... 3540393317

Стайер band rejected "A band needs a valid release before they can be accepted to the site"

here is photo proof of CD release:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb22 ... vjudmo.jpg

CD is available for sale on Discogs:
http://www.discogs.com/sell/item/221634842

promo track:
http://youtu.be/AyDoViGjGug

Looks good, but it says the release date is March 8th. Is that a pre-order, then? If so, simply wait until then before you resubmit (and include those links).

>Is that a pre-order, then?

Yes.

Hey, the new Pyramids full length is out in a week or two. Maybe reconsider them for the archives?

http://profoundlorerecords.bandcamp.com ... ern-meadow

Maybe, but not based on two tracks alone and the release must be out already too.

Honestly of all the anomalies that aren't on this site I can sort of understand why Botanist isn't here. The execution definitely can seem like a black metal aesthetic but the music itself (to me at least) sounds more like shoegaze/atmospheric post rock on speed. Not discrediting their talent as a band - they're definitely "out there" and very unique sounding - but I have a hard time calling it metal myself; the sound of a guy choking on the microphone doesn't sway my opinion really.

What I'm more baffled about though is SUMAC (yes I'm bringing that up again). What about them doesn't seem metal to you guys? If it's their riffs, what about their riffs aren't metal (you haven't answered this yet)? Humour me, at least.

Concerning Sumac, I do think they're very very borderline and while I think they could be considered a metal band, it's not a clear cut decision and I can understand the pros and cons. It's heavy, the riffs are bludgeoning and slow but it's rooted in hardcore and post hardcore with hints of post metal (let's understand that this genre isn't always by and for metal bands), ambient and proggy sludge. The thing is, like Nails, they're heavy and possess a metal aesthetic but their riffs are simply not quite metal and this is due to the constant amalgamation of genres that is way more a thing than before. We see the line between metal and punk becoming thinner and thinner and sometimes it's hard to maintain the right balance. Many staffers agreed that Sumac weren't metal enough based on our standards and that's a line I respect.

Also, it would be appreciated if you could use a more cordial tone in your posts, it would help to take what you say more seriously.

A few days ago I submitted a band lead by Ammit founder member Count Czar Yang. This side project is called O.S.I.R.I.S. and mr. Zodijackyl considered it a non metal act and he determined to blacklist the band just because it was "fuzzy noise with no guitar riff". Well the band probably is just noise, but this side project belongs to one of the precursors of using keyboards in south american black metal scene in early 90's. I think that is strong significance in metal community and has distribution world wide throught Czar Yang himself.

Please, give me a solution and my account reactivated.

Side projects are for well known musicians like Karl Sanders or Fenriz, I'm afraid this guy is too obscure to get his SP approved.

Fenriz posted Ammit as "band of the week" after the release of Armaggedon Cobra album. Whatever, if you don't mind about southamerican metal scene it's OK but please reactivate my account.

You knowingly evaded a blacklisting. As the rules and a bright orange warning box say, that's a bannable offence.

Metantoine, thanks for actually taking a moment to explain why you guys thought Sumac weren't metal. The other mods didn't really do that; they simply said that they weren't metal and left it while showing a strong dislike towards that genre, and from what they were saying it sounded like a hell of a lot of bias. That's why I was annoyed, but I'll be more courteous now (I don't post here often but when I do I usually am respectful), though in my defense it looks like some other people were a hell of a lot more rude than I was, but I don't want to nitpick.

Thank you for taking time to explain. I appreciate that and I accept your answer. I strongly disagree, especially because there's a lot more to metal than simply riffs, but I accept your answer. It's not the end of the world if Sumac isn't here.

I already explained why I considered it an ERROR but you don't mind about my argument. In the future I will consider your indifference to the southamerican metal scene. What else I have to do to have my account back?

That is irrelevant. The proper procedure for inquiring about rejections/blacklisting is explained in the email you received after the first rejection (and the mentioned warning box too). You should've posted here, instead you chose to ignore the rules as they were explained to you.

So there is no chance to have my account back because I'm some kind of "metal archives criminal"?

Rules are rules. No point having them if we don't follow them.

So, that's it? My account will be unable to add more bands forever?

Correct. We already rejected the band, you ignored the instructions, you sent our webmaster an email about it, then you ignored the bright orange warning and changed the spelling of the band's name to evade the blacklisting and resubmitted it, which the rules and at least one other place make clear is a bannable offense. We give every submission a chance, we offer a chance to appeal it in this thread, but we don't tolerate wasting our time when you try to circumvent our system by evading the blacklist.

Hi, i was wondering why did "Rda" or "Rdja" got blacklisted from metallum? I bought their demos through a serbian label called jesboligakurac records and as far as i can see they check all the submission rules.

Neither of those names are blacklisted, perhaps they have simply never been added?

Hi, I need to put the band "Intrigue" from Norway, a "Classic Heavy Metal/Viking Metal" from the North of Norway, but I don't know how to prove that is a real band (Sightly similar to Cargo from Romania) especially the first album of 1994 and the last EP of 2011 are Effectively Metal, please can you tell me how can I let you listen the songs? I got all the records original and I can send you digital files through Mail

Thanks

Don't bother, they are blacklisted as of early 2013 for not being metal enough. Did they release something decidedly metal after that point? Maybe we can reassess.

Hello all,

I was wondering if the band Yeehaw Jihad was blacklisted. Sometimes it's a fineline between stoner 'rock' and stoner 'metal' but these guys definitely work primarily off the classic doom metal feel. Very Sabbath-y at times, with some nice stoner riffs. Anyways, they're pretty good. Here's their album released in January
http://yeehawjihad.bandcamp.com/

Nope, not blacklisted. Go ahead and give it a try and submit. No pre-checks.

Check the yellow part of this thread's first post, ThePoop.

Checking if a band is blacklisted is pretty easy, by the way. Just try to create a draft.