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Woolie_Wool
Facets of Predictability

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 2119
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:39 pm 
 

Azmodes wrote:
I remember Zodijackyl mentioning that he's encountered a lot of bands listed as "melodic (death/)thrash metal" that are actually typical modern metalcore. Still some cleaning-up to do there, evidently.

Considering that most real thrash bands with an emphasis on melody are tagged "speed/thrash" or "power/thrash", that kind of renders "melodic thrash metal" redundant anyway. Although it does amuse me how Tetrarch has fewer melodies than your garden variety Bay Area thrash band.
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Jabawock
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:31 pm
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Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:05 am 
 

Metantoine wrote:
That's not a real genre, sorry. Might as well use "sentimental black metal"!


oh ok then, I really thought it was more widely used, but seeing no one seems to know about it I guess it's a lot more specific than I thought. Regardless of the name, I do think a proper designation for such bands is lacking at the moment, maybe that will come one day...

Thanks for the feedback! :thumbsup:
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TheUnhinged
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:28 pm
Posts: 417
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:25 pm 
 

Two bands I would like to address: Black Lodge and Mindrot, two very diverse and extreme doom bands. Both are listed as just Doom Metal on the archives, which I assume is because they both go for a very unorthodox and dissonant sound and, for the most part, don't really fit into specific sub-categories. I personally find that their outside influences are apparent enough to be included, as opposed to just being described ambiguously as Doom. Since nobody else seems to have pointed this out before, I wanted to get some opinions from those of you who are familiar with these bands.

Black Lodge shares a lot of similarities with Unholy and early-Funeral, playing ultra slow doom with deep grunts and female vocals. There are lots of pure funeral doom and death metal sections littered throughout their full-length album 'Covet'. There are also some mild industrial and hardcore influences on a couple of tracks, but for the most part, I think their sound could be summed up simply to Death/Doom Metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOjjQklbNh4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFBxcIZ1q7w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwgjI1w-c7c

Mindrot is a tad more complicated, as they are more technical and draw in more influences. Their early demo is very death/grind oriented, while their later work is more inclusive of doom elements.

'Dawning' sort of fits in with the aggressive, yet atmospheric death/doom metal that was going on in the US at the time (Morgion, Winter, Dusk, Thorns of the Carrion, etc). The album has some mild gothic rock and grunge influences here and there, but overall, I find the album is generally a blend of death and doom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuYqHH5MAcM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5gnCfTWBUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUwRRltMyS8

'Soul' is a bit more ambiguous. The death metal influences are a little less apparent, taking more of a direction towards sludge (in the vein of Acid Bath and Crowbar).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAbDgmbmjv8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0vjilFwXHw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZhTt_enmL0

Overall, I think the appropriate genre change for Mindrot would be Doom/Death/Sludge Metal.

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MetalCuresHeadaches
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:35 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:38 am 
 

Some time ago the staff did house-cleaning and relocated "NS" from the genre field to the lyrical themes field of multiple bands. The same thing was also done to the plethora of Christian-themed black metal bands, who previously had their genre listed as "black" metal to signify their Jesus-ness. I came across three pages that got missed in that second wave:

- Heavenly Host
- Eternal Emperor
- Bestir
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TheStormIRide
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Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:46 pm 
 

TheUnhinged wrote:
Two bands I would like to address: Black Lodge and Mindrot.



I'm extremely familiar with Mindrot, as they were one of my favorite bands around the time Soul came out. I think that perhaps atmospheric doom / death would be more fitting, as the sludge elements really aren't all that prevalent. Overall, their discography is very moody and atmospheric tinged doom with growled vocals.
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Folkemon_
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:42 am 
 

Does Orphaned Land really need the "Middle Eastern" bit in their genre? its still folk metal no matter where it comes from so i dont see the need to add that to it.
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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:35 pm 
 

That's like saying we might as well remove the subgenre tags since it's all still metal.

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~Guest 82538
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:07 pm 
 

teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
That's like saying we might as well remove the subgenre tags since it's all still metal.

You're funny. However, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Middle Eastern Folk" the only instance of folk metal where the location is specified? And if that's the correct nomenclature shouldn't we start calling Nordic bands "Nordic Folk" or whatever?! I agree with Folkemon_ in that it sounds redundant, but then again I'm not the boss around here.

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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:28 pm 
 

There's currently 24 bands with the "middle eastern" tag on MA, I don't think it's quite necessary myself. I mean Melechesh is labelled as "Black/Death/Middle Eastern Folk Metal" while only black/death/folk could suffice. Sure the band could be influenced by Celtic folk music but that's unlikely! And even though a band is influenced by another culture (see Whispered, another band that should be edited), things can get specified in the lyrical themes. I'll talk to some other mods and we'll reach a consensus.
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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:50 pm 
 

Well I know it's not my call ultimately, but each variety of folk is distinct, musically, and in the absence of a specific cultural label like "Celtic" then the place of origin is used since there's no better way of distinguishing them verbally, like Gothenburg death metal or US power metal (yet much more broad than those). "Folk" used on its own generally carries an assumption (rightly or wrongly) of stereotypical European varieties.

The only other way of discerning tends to be the band's image and maybe cultural references they make, and those aren't really inherently dependent on the music itself, and neither, really, are the lyrical themes (even if, yes, they generally might be tied in with a motivation to sing about their homeland or as a fun gimmick), and all I figured was that that was the impetus for doing the reverse, like removing things such as "national socialist" from the genre field.

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~Guest 82538
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:57 pm 
 

I know where you're going with your reasoning, but when you extrapolate it to, say death metal, you'd have bands be tagged as "Finndeath", "Sweddeath" or "Floridian Death Metal". Same with black metal if you'd want to differentiate the Norwegian style from the early nineties CF-influenced Central European style, and so on. The same can be applied to folk metal really, since no matter which style is being played it's still folk. So yeah, I guess that it becomes redundant and nitpicky to have that extra info on a genre field.

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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:00 pm 
 

androdion wrote:
I know where you're going with your reasoning, but when you extrapolate it to, say death metal, you'd have bands be tagged as "Finndeath", "Sweddeath" or "Floridian Death Metal". Same with black metal if you'd want to differentiate the Norwegian style from the early nineties CF-influenced Central European style, and so on. The same can be applied to folk metal really, since no matter which style is being played it's still folk. So yeah, I guess that it becomes redundant and nitpicky to have that extra info on a genre field.

Well, the trouble is that those are all simply different "sounds" within their specific subgenre of metal (which is even a subset within "rock music"), whereas Celtic folk music is almost completely different to Indian folk music which is almost completely different to Oriental folk music and so on; not just different varieties of the same specific style. It doesn't have to be super nitpicky, like distinguishing the varieties within Europe or India or East Asia, but, even if just in terms of the search function (which is probably what determines the worth of genre tags), if I wanted to search for bands which incorporate Shamisens and Asian traditional melodies and whatnot in their music then it would be much more efficient to search for "Oriental folk metal" (or whatever the site would use) than to search for "folk metal" then try and think about what lyrical themes they might sing about; some might sing about samurai, some might sing about Japan, but some might sing about China and different a different cultural aspect, or Korea or whatever, and you'd miss those bands. And if you searched within Japan then it would be a good way of narrowing it down but of course you'd miss bands like Whispered. Never mind the odd band which might sing about a completely fantasy world or something.

Similarly it helps to label Tuatha de Danann for instance as "Celtic folk metal" since they're exactly that, and not a more distilled variety of the native style that Angra or Aquaria employ.

This is just my view on it at least; they have distinct musical aspects, so where there is a relevant musical basis for specificity, then I do feel it's relevant to put into the genre field. I can appreciate it not being distinguished within European/Anglophone countries if they play some European style (even between Celtic or Nordic, even if I feel that that wouldn't be irrelevant), since that's the cultural default (and, of course, would take quite the overhaul since it's probably the most populous style on here, though that's precisely for that reason), but yeah.

I am aware too that not every distinct style has a convenient name (like the aforementioned variety of Angra and Aquaria and other South American ones such as Tierramystica (except maybe "ethnic" but that's also incredibly vague and troublesome)), and so don't expect it to be perfect, but if it has a convenient label, then I feel it's helpful and useful to distinguish it on a general scale, since the sound you get from each variety's influence is entirely different.

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Mail Revilo
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:36 am
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Location: S. Georgia and S. Sandwich Isls.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:23 am 
 

I have recently started listening to Tang Dynasty, (http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/%E5 ... C%9D/24994) and 'Heavy Metal/Rock' just seems like a placeholder that is just waiting to be updated.

Tang Dynasty play Progressive/Folk Metal/Rock.

Traditional Chinese folk instruments have always been part of their style, (i think they often use a sanxian, erhu, guzheng and dizi or something like these). Much of their composition is based around traditional oriental melodies. They influenced and are similar to the band Spring and Autumn who have been given the Folk Metal label. (春秋 in the similar artists tab). Tang Dynasty incorporate far more folk influences than Spring and Autumn.

Tang Dynasty are very musically driven, unique, complex and very experimental definitely not your usual 'Heavy Metal'. They meet all the criteria for Progressive, comparable to early Prog such as Fate's Warning. Lots of their songs are definitely closer to Rock, comparable to Led Zeppelin, albeit with a more ethnic oriental tinge.

To make it even more accurate would be to give it the 'Eastern Folk' tag as has been done for Whispered, Chthonic and Ego Fall, this separates it from the plethora of European/Nordic Folk that really has nothing in common with Tang.

'Eastern Folk/Progressive Metal/Rock' would be the most precise.

Here is my original report i sent - http://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/488199


Last edited by Mail Revilo on Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mail Revilo
Mallcore Kid

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Location: S. Georgia and S. Sandwich Isls.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:42 am 
 

teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
Well I know it's not my call ultimately, but each variety of folk is distinct, musically, and in the absence of a specific cultural label like "Celtic" then the place of origin is used since there's no better way of distinguishing them verbally, like Gothenburg death metal or US power metal (yet much more broad than those). "Folk" used on its own generally carries an assumption (rightly or wrongly) of stereotypical European varieties.

The only other way of discerning tends to be the band's image and maybe cultural references they make, and those aren't really inherently dependent on the music itself, and neither, really, are the lyrical themes (even if, yes, they generally might be tied in with a motivation to sing about their homeland or as a fun gimmick), and all I figured was that that was the impetus for doing the reverse, like removing things such as "national socialist" from the genre field.


I also agree that all the different styles of Folk Metal could be labelled, because Folk is a very diverse genre, there is not just one type, eg. Korpiklaani and Myrath are both Folk Metal, but TOTALLY different, there is no default vanilla 'Folk' music, it depends on where it is from in the world.

Some Celtic and Eastern bands have been labelled, so this could be expanded upon with the rest of the Folk styles.

Eg. you have Nordic Folk (Ensiferum, Falkenbach, Tyr, Korpiklaani), Celtic Folk (Cruachan, Primordial, Waylander, Skiltron), Middle Eastern/Arabian Folk (Myrath, Orphaned Land, Khepri, Pirania), East Asian Folk (Whispered, Shangren, Tengger Cavalry, Tang Dynasty), Latin American Folk (Tierramystica, Toccata Maga) and im sure there is many more. These styles are all very different to each other, and i agree that just 'Folk Metal' carries an assumption of stereotypical European styles.

I dont think it is necessary to narrow it down to country, but i think the general regional style of Folk the bands use would be a good addition for more distinction.

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~Guest 82538
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:02 am 
 

Mail Revilo wrote:
I also agree that all the different styles of Folk Metal could be labelled, because Folk is a very diverse genre, there is not just one type, eg. Korpiklaani and Myrath are both Folk Metal, but TOTALLY different, there is no default vanilla 'Folk' music, it depends on where it is from in the world.

Some Celtic and Eastern bands have been labelled, so this could be expanded upon with the rest of the Folk styles.

Eg. you have Nordic Folk (Ensiferum, Falkenbach, Tyr, Korpiklaani), Celtic Folk (Cruachan, Primordial, Waylander, Skiltron), Middle Eastern/Arabian Folk (Myrath, Orphaned Land, Khepri, Pirania), East Asian Folk (Whispered, Shangren, Tengger Cavalry, Tang Dynasty), Latin American Folk (Tierramystica, Toccata Maga) and im sure there is many more. These styles are all very different to each other, and i agree that just 'Folk Metal' carries an assumption of stereotypical European styles.

I dont think it is necessary to narrow it down to country, but i think the general regional style of Folk the bands use would be a good addition for more distinction.

- You have Swedish death metal, Finnish death metal, New York Death metal, Florida death metal, Polish death metal, etc.
- You have Bay Area thrash metal, Teutonic thrash metal, UK thrash metal, South American thrash metal, etc.
- You have US black metal, Norwegian black metal (which then even goes out into branching into "Norsecore"), Central European black metal (inspired by Celtic Frost), Asian black metal, etc.

Are the two of you trying to tell me that the differences aren't the same? The basis for the style remains the same but all that changes are the regional aspects! Come on now...

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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:57 am 
 

androdion wrote:
- You have Swedish death metal, Finnish death metal, New York Death metal, Florida death metal, Polish death metal, etc.
- You have Bay Area thrash metal, Teutonic thrash metal, UK thrash metal, South American thrash metal, etc.
- You have US black metal, Norwegian black metal (which then even goes out into branching into "Norsecore"), Central European black metal (inspired by Celtic Frost), Asian black metal, etc.

Are the two of you trying to tell me that the differences aren't the same? The basis for the style remains the same but all that changes are the regional aspects! Come on now...

I'm precisely saying that the differences aren't the same. I don't see how you think that just having <place name> <genre label> means they're necessarily equatable at all. The basis for the style does not remain the same at all between the general regional varieties of "folk" music. The only reason it's all called folk is because that's the label used to describe music that's been passed down from generation to generation. I find it hard to believe you think that nuances in subgenres of metal that emerged in specific locations merely over the past ten to thirty years are anything as pronounced as centuries if not millennia of isolated divergence in the lack of even a written tradition let alone widespread communication media. There has been a lot of cross pollination of various regional types of "folk" music, such as the modern sense of European folk inheriting a lot from the Moors over the past several centuries, but they still retain pronounced regional identities and traditions due to the relative lack of contact, so are still much greater than the varieties within just a subset of a subset of rock music, even just involving the sound of the instruments.

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~Guest 82538
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:47 pm 
 

Off-topic: Are you implying that metal is a subset of rock music or have I understood it wrong?

Regarding the folk deal then. Granted, the scope is indeed different if you want to look at it in plain quantitative terms. The differences though aren't as huge as you're trying to imply. I'll give you a proper example then. I live in Portugal and we have the mainland with lowlands and highlands, the South and the North, and even islands. And I can tell you that folk styles within my country vary from region to region, to the point where they're distinctively different from one another in both style and instrumentation (and even use different instruments). You also have other kinds of more "general" folk music, something we describe as "pimba", which is similar to what the Brazilians call "forró". And then we even have other different styles of music than in essence are also considered folk music because they bear traits of the musical identity of the country, namely "fado". But when push comes to shove what are you going to call all those styles with all their differences? Folk music. Because otherwise you'd have to pick a designation for each subset of Portuguese folk music, since calling it all "just" Portuguese Folk would be highly inaccurate.

You see, if you really want to be specific you may end up with much more than what you could expect to chew, know what I mean? ;)

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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:17 pm 
 

androdion wrote:
Off-topic: Are you implying that metal is a subset of rock music or have I understood it wrong?

Whether it is or isn't doesn't really matter to me but it appears to be considered such in common usage.
Quote:
Regarding the folk deal then. Granted, the scope is indeed different if you want to look at it in plain quantitative terms. The differences though aren't as huge as you're trying to imply. I'll give you a proper example then. I live in Portugal and we have the mainland with lowlands and highlands, the South and the North, and even islands. And I can tell you that folk styles within my country vary from region to region, to the point where they're distinctively different from one another in both style and instrumentation (and even use different instruments). You also have other kinds of more "general" folk music, something we describe as "pimba", which is similar to what the Brazilians call "forró". And then we even have other different styles of music than in essence are also considered folk music because they bear traits of the musical identity of the country, namely "fado". But when push comes to shove what are you going to call all those styles with all their differences? Folk music. Because otherwise you'd have to pick a designation for each subset of Portuguese folk music, since calling it all "just" Portuguese Folk would be highly inaccurate.

You see, if you really want to be specific you may end up with much more than what you could expect to chew, know what I mean? ;)

You say that the differences aren't as great as I'm making out but then you go on to say that you have regional varieties which are very different. If they're different regionally which of course they will be then think about that distance and thus difference multiplied by a whole continent's width, not to mention the mountains and oceans in between to help exaggerate those differences.

And differentiating between more general styles doesn't at all mean that you have to differentiate based on all possible differences, that's...ludicrous. I said precisely that it didn't need to be specific and only needs to cover the most general of regional style; it's useful to differentiate between Middle Eastern, East Asian, Celtic/Nordic etc. Those styles are also popular enough to be used by a number of bands on top of being clearly audibly different, and as well to be actually known enough for them to be sought out by people. Anything more specific, such as if they're influenced by the specific style from their home village or something, can be put into the additional notes, since that'll most likely be "unique" information.

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~Guest 82538
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:31 pm 
 

OK, so you understand my point of view and I understand yours. We don't agree though, so we might as well give a rest. ;)

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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:47 pm 
 

A very rational proposition :)

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TheUnhinged
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:06 pm 
 

TheStormIRide wrote:
TheUnhinged wrote:
Two bands I would like to address: Black Lodge and Mindrot.



I'm extremely familiar with Mindrot, as they were one of my favorite bands around the time Soul came out. I think that perhaps atmospheric doom / death would be more fitting, as the sludge elements really aren't all that prevalent. Overall, their discography is very moody and atmospheric tinged doom with growled vocals.


After giving Dawning another full listen, I absolutely agree with you. Thanks for the response!

Does anybody have any opinions on changing Black Lodge to death/doom?

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flexodus
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:56 pm 
 

Can someone remove "stoner" from Twitching Tongues' genre? They aren't a stoner rock band at all, and Feed Your Disease is a straightedge song. They should just be classified as Doom Metal/Hardcore.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:06 am 
 

TheExodusAttack wrote:
They aren't a stoner rock band at all, and Feed Your Disease is a straightedge song.

I haven't listened, but just for the record, we don't base genres on lyrical/ideological content or lifestyle. You don't have to smoke dope all day to play stoner metal. So if this is your only basis for removing the tag, not going to happen. If you do mean their actual music, nevermind me, but just wanted to point that out.
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TheGrimWombat
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:34 pm 
 

They definitely have stoner in their sound.
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flexodus
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:05 pm 
 

TheGrimWombat wrote:
They definitely have stoner in their sound.


I seriously could not disagree more. These guys obviously wear their influences on their sleeves (Type O Negative, Life of Agony, Bolt Thrower) and stoner bands are not among them If anything, "alternative" would be a better descriptor for their weird melody they use. They had a weird almost classic rock vibe on their earliest stuff but now they just sound like a doom/deathier version of LOA.
Stream the second album here
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alexo666
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:09 pm 
 

^If the riffs in Distance Clause and Voluntary Confinement among others aren't stoner , IDK what to tell you.
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joppek
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:51 pm 
 

i noticed rotting christ has "extreme metal (later)" in their genre tag (along with more sensible early/mid tags) and did a search for bands with the word "extreme" in their genre tags... i was kinda surprised to see well over a hundred hits

i don't really have a good suggestion for what to call modern rotting christ and other stuff like that, but i do feel like just "extreme metal" is a really poor tag for anything (as long as you're communicating to someone fairly informed about metal, which i suppose we can assume of most of the people who use the site)
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Diamhea
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:52 pm 
 

joppek wrote:
i noticed rotting christ has "extreme metal (later)" in their genre tag (along with more sensible early/mid tags) and did a search for bands with the word "extreme" in their genre tags... i was kinda surprised to see well over a hundred hits

i don't really have a good suggestion for what to call modern rotting christ and other stuff like that, but i do feel like just "extreme metal" is a really poor tag for anything (as long as you're communicating to someone fairly informed about metal, which i suppose we can assume of most of the people who use the site)


Well what do you suggest in replacement?

In the meantime, I have updated Decapitated to Technical Death Metal (early), Death/Groove Metal (later) in light of yet another album following the Organic Hallucinosis path.
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~Guest 82538
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:46 pm 
 

Since we're here... :oh shit:

Yesterday I noticed that Throes Of Dawn had its "progressive" tag removed on the "(early)" period. While I agree that having "Progressive/Melodic Black Metal (early), Progressive/Gothic Metal (later)" does sound redundant, having "Folk/Melodic Black Metal (early), Progressive/Gothic Metal (later)" as it is now is kind of wrong as well.

The thing is, TOD have always been "progressive something", ever since the debut. Can't vouch for the demo period because I'm not familiar with those two recordings, but ever since Pakkasherra they've been constantly injecting progressive elements into their sound. And I'd go as far as saying that they're as present as the folk and black metal elements. So I guess that what I'm trying to say here is that the "progressive" tag should be present in both periods. How, that's not my decision.

They've always been hard to classify, and it's funny that they'd describe themselves as "progressive dark metal", because I actually find that description suiting for once. And truth be told, searching for that string does return 46 results. I'm not sure how's the house policy on "dark metal" nowadays, but given the difficulty in classifying them and not sounding redundant I'd say it's as good as a bet as anything else.

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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:14 pm 
 

Amended Machinae Supremacy to "Alternative Rock/Power Metal with Electronic Influences."

Amended Throes of Dawn as per androdion's request concerning the "Progressive" tag.
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~Guest 82538
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:43 am 
 

Appreciate it mate! ;)

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LeMiserable
Milhouse van Houten

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:40 am 
 

I wanna suggest a slight genre modification for Carnifex.

Yes, they're deathcore, I completely agree with that genre. But I think they're about as death metal-influenced as deathcore is gonna get. I've been taking a closer listening to their style lately and it's evident that about 50% of their music is metal-influenced.

A large portion of their riffs are either TBDM-styled riffs, (brutal) death metal riffs or in the case of their debut, slams. Of course there are the default tremolo riffs, but there's so little slow chugging nowadays aside from the breakdowns. Their latest album is almost uniformly deathcore/death metal. Compare this to...say, Whitechapel's debut. It's just so more based around the -core side of death metal, rather than just deathcore.

A few examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfRyUocqP2o Basically every riff in this song that isn't a breakdown or chug is almost completely death metal-based.

This is only 1 song, but for those who know their latest album, it's the same idea. Basically every blast or thrashy passage has a very fast tremolo riff with very little chugging along with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWACn4FdxP8 This thing chugs alot, but as soon as it speeds up it's the same idea, and the slambreakdown at 3:00 is similar, very metal/slam-based.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPhvx0oywMU Same idea, very fast riffs if the song is fast too.

Another thing with Carnifex, is that they're much faster than regular deathcore bands. Where most deathcore bands seem to rely on slow chugs and sometimes a bit of blasting, Carnifex have much faster-paced songs overall, which gives them more chance to show off some of their more death metal-based elements.

I'm probably walking on a very thin wire and I'm not very at home in this. But I think this band is worth looking at, if you'd ask me, they should be "Deathcore/Death Metal". Their debut is basically 50% brutal/slam death metal-based and then there's the TBDM/melodeath riffs that appear on every single album of theirs.

Whenever I compare these guys to say; The Acacia Strain, Suicide Silence, Impending Doom and the like, I can't help but feel these guys just have much more of a death metal approach to things. Of course, they're predominantly deathcore, and their music is still mostly relying on breakdowns, but that's also what they're deathcore for.

To summarize:

- Lots of high-paced TBDM/melodeath riffs
- High-paced songs, little chugging aside from the breakdowns
- In the case of their debut, slams and brutal death influences. There are still some around nowadays, but a little less.
- Heck, they even have a cover of "Angel of Death" on Hell Chose Me.

I'll probably post stuff about Viraemia soon.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:38 am 
 

It pains me that I need to ask this, but you *do* realize that "deathcore" means "metalcore + death metal", right?
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LeMiserable
Milhouse van Houten

Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:42 am
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:41 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
It pains me that I need to ask this, but you *do* realize that "deathcore" means "metalcore + death metal", right?


Yes I do. But I do also realize that putting death metal in their genre field implies that they're either heavily death metal-influenced deathcore, or deathcore-influenced death metal. To such a degree that they deserve the extra entry. I have seen it on the board, and I thought it fits Carnifex as well.

EDIT, see for yourself:

http://www.metal-archives.com/search/ad ... eleaseType
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:30 pm 
 

Honestly, dude, I think you're getting to the point of splitting hairs that don't even exist with this genre stuff. Technically speaking, literally any deathcore band on the Archives is DM-influenced enough to be labeled as "Death Metal/Deathcore". Most aren't labeled as such (unless they take a very large influence from melodeath or tech-death, in which case it's worth noting), and I'd say the ones that are, are very redundant and indeed shouldn't be using that tag. It'd be like tagging Darkspace as "Ambient Black Metal/Ambient". Also, the songs the band chooses to cover have nothing to do with their genre, especially considering Slayer aren't even death metal. That is not how genres work, at all.

Save the hyperanalysis for tags in your music player, MA shouldn't be precise about genres to the point of being misleading.
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LeMiserable
Milhouse van Houten

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:45 pm 
 

That does mean all these "Deathcore/Death Metal" bands need to be fixed, right?
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:54 pm 
 

Well, in my opinion, yeah. *shrug*
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Azmodes
Ultranaut

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:07 pm 
 

Well, the implication of those should be that those bands are considerably more death metal-oriented than what we usually allow in under just "Deathcore". And/or outright death metal on some tracks or albums. No doubt it's redundant in some cases, but as so often with genre matters it's really not a big deal and a highly subjective back-and-forth to boot. If you feel there's bands tagged as both dm and dc that don't meet the criteria I just described, I'm not stopping you from reporting them, but don't be surprised when we're not exactly jumping to deal with it.
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joppek
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:47 pm 
 

Diamhea wrote:
joppek wrote:
i noticed rotting christ has "extreme metal (later)" in their genre tag (along with more sensible early/mid tags) and did a search for bands with the word "extreme" in their genre tags... i was kinda surprised to see well over a hundred hits

i don't really have a good suggestion for what to call modern rotting christ and other stuff like that, but i do feel like just "extreme metal" is a really poor tag for anything (as long as you're communicating to someone fairly informed about metal, which i suppose we can assume of most of the people who use the site)


Well what do you suggest in replacement?


i suppose early celtic frost is a good comparison... which is tagged as Thrash/Death/Black Metal... i guess it comes down to opinion, but imo that's better than "extreme metal"

and like i said, there's a lot of other bands tagged as "extreme metal" (plus variants), which imo doesn't really count as a genre, but similar treatments for those might obviously be quite a bit of work
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LeMiserable
Milhouse van Houten

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:06 am 
 

So, I wanna prevent making a mess of the report section as I've already sent 1 (actually, double-posted it by accident) report and I feel like having 3 reports in a row is a bit unnecessary, so instead I'll just put this down here. I wanna fill in a report for the band The Red Shore, they are currently tagged as "Technical Deathcore", and while that tag isn't necessarily incorrect for their early era, their last album is actually very, very far removed from this genre.

So, their first 2 albums are both pretty comfortably Technical Deathcore, palm muted chugs, very deathcore-y vocals, and quite a few breakdowns and deathcore chugs, and whatnot.

Unconsecrated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B57EhGmPutU The Garden of Impurity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCKafjoE4jk Misery Hymn

The rest of the album is basically the same, in fact it's sped up deathcore but I feel it's complex and technical enough to atleast deserve the "technical tag".

Lost Verses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVtXesqq72k Sink or Swim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550KLl9pjXc Pulling Teeth

As you can hear, both these albums are filled with breakdowns, palm-muted chugs, but also a lot of high speed tremolo's and very fast blasting, both deserving of the Technical Deathcore tag.

As for The Avarice of Man, however...despite my lack of musical knowledge, I am pretty sure that this isn't a deathcore album by any stretch of imagination. I'd actually go as far as saying this album is basically a very, very heavy and somewhat slow copy of death metal-ized Job For A Cowboy, there's a lot of blasting, lots and lots of groove as well, very heavy riffs, and little deathcore to be found other than the sound, the vocals are also pretty much limited to a sort of Gorefest-like cavernous growl. The album has breakdowns, but again, these are pretty remniscent of what JFAC play on their later albums:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR9nnDm9cfA The Seed of Annihilation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExB34kFKaps Human, All Too Human

Sure, there's definitely some deathcore still present, but I'm pretty sure this album is Technical Death Metal predominantly, there are some breakdowns, but they're much more rooted in death metal than deathcore, the vocals are metallic, the riffs are very metallic and not even close to their first 2 albums in terms of how core-y they are.

So, I suggest their genre should be changed to:

Technical Deathcore (early), Technical Death Metal (later).

OR

Technical Death Metal/Deathcore.

...

I would personally go for the first, I feel that there's enough difference between the first 2 and the last album to have their genres separated, the last album isn't deathcore, and the first 2 are pretty far removed from death metal.
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