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~Guest 62838
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1745
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:12 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Viral wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
That is what I am asking about. Why is it in some cases a tape with a marker-written label is convincing yet a CDr is not? I'm just talking about the consistency here, as I've seen other bands accepted with CDrs as well, a lot like this one.

Agreed. This is a site dedicated to collecting as many metal bands as possible. Denying a band because of something as superficial as the quality of their cover art is stupid. If it's officially been released and has worldwide distribution, that's all that should matter.


Yes, but you should prove all that somehow, that is the point. And demos of metal bands do not need to have worldwide distribution, only non-metal side projects- we repeat it here on almost daily basis.

Why do you keep jumping from one foot to another? That's not what you're arguing here. He has proven the validity of it's existence and distribution. You're arguing that it's not a valid release because it's lack of artwork.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:14 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Viral wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
That is what I am asking about. Why is it in some cases a tape with a marker-written label is convincing yet a CDr is not? I'm just talking about the consistency here, as I've seen other bands accepted with CDrs as well, a lot like this one.

Agreed. This is a site dedicated to collecting as many metal bands as possible. Denying a band because of something as superficial as the quality of their cover art is stupid. If it's officially been released and has worldwide distribution, that's all that should matter.


Yes, but you should prove all that somehow, that is the point. And demos of metal bands do not need to have worldwide distribution, only non-metal side projects- we repeat it here on almost daily basis.

Why do you keep jumping from one foot to another? That's not what you're arguing here. He has proven the validity of it's existence and distribution. You're arguing that it's not a valid release because it's lack of artwork.

No, he has not proven anything by that picture and especially not the distribution. There is no word on the distribution on the myspace or other official source.

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~Guest 62838
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1745
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:19 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Viral wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Viral wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
That is what I am asking about. Why is it in some cases a tape with a marker-written label is convincing yet a CDr is not? I'm just talking about the consistency here, as I've seen other bands accepted with CDrs as well, a lot like this one.

Agreed. This is a site dedicated to collecting as many metal bands as possible. Denying a band because of something as superficial as the quality of their cover art is stupid. If it's officially been released and has worldwide distribution, that's all that should matter.


Yes, but you should prove all that somehow, that is the point. And demos of metal bands do not need to have worldwide distribution, only non-metal side projects- we repeat it here on almost daily basis.

Why do you keep jumping from one foot to another? That's not what you're arguing here. He has proven the validity of it's existence and distribution. You're arguing that it's not a valid release because it's lack of artwork.

No, he has not proven anything by that picture and especially not the distribution. There is no word on the distribution on the myspace or other official source.

If you've already accepted bands under the same circumstances, what's one more? At the risk of getting myself banned, I can't help but say mod hypocrisy is not a very effective deterrant for preventing said hypocrisy by the average user.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:30 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Viral wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Viral wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
That is what I am asking about. Why is it in some cases a tape with a marker-written label is convincing yet a CDr is not? I'm just talking about the consistency here, as I've seen other bands accepted with CDrs as well, a lot like this one.

Agreed. This is a site dedicated to collecting as many metal bands as possible. Denying a band because of something as superficial as the quality of their cover art is stupid. If it's officially been released and has worldwide distribution, that's all that should matter.


Yes, but you should prove all that somehow, that is the point. And demos of metal bands do not need to have worldwide distribution, only non-metal side projects- we repeat it here on almost daily basis.

Why do you keep jumping from one foot to another? That's not what you're arguing here. He has proven the validity of it's existence and distribution. You're arguing that it's not a valid release because it's lack of artwork.

No, he has not proven anything by that picture and especially not the distribution. There is no word on the distribution on the myspace or other official source.

If you've already accepted bands under the same circumstances, what's one more? At the risk of getting myself banned, I can't help but say mod hypocrisy is not a very effective deterrant for preventing said hypocrisy by the average user.


It was not under the same circumstances. I like your high and mighty position, when you obviously do not know how the decision process works or which all bands have been accepted and why.

Read Morrigan's post, read MMisanthropo's post.

Clearer now??

One more advice for you, go to Alestorm forum, you may find many new friends here, especially their German manager/producer.

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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10812
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:40 pm 
 

Simply amazing how Witcher still refuses to read anyone's posts and writes completely random replies.
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~Guest 62838
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1745
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:45 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
It was not under the same circumstances. I like your high and mighty position, when you obviously do not know how the decision process works or which all bands have been accepted and why.

Read Morrigan's post, read MMisanthropo's post.

Clearer now??

I seriously doubt someone would conjure up a fake album just to get accepted here. No one is that pathetic. But I will say it's best that the band aramisdeathmetal is trying to submit post some blog on their MySpace regarding the release of this particular album.

Quote:
One more advice for you, go to Alestorm forum, you may find many new friends here, especially their German manager/producer.

Never heard of the site. Secondly, that wasn't a direct attack against you. It was against mod hypocrisy in general (which includes other things not relating to this topic). So please do not accuse me of coming off as high and mighty.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:46 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Simply amazing how Witcher still refuses to read anyone's posts and writes completely random replies.

The user in question:
1. Does not seem to understand the rules properly.
2. Refuses to acknowledge the fact, that the picture presented is not a proof enough and especially not a proof of a distribution, even when it was stated so by a site owner.
3. Talks about illusionary double standards, even when he has no clear proof of it and does not know the circumstances of other bands accepted with a cd-r out.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:49 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Witcher wrote:
It was not under the same circumstances. I like your high and mighty position, when you obviously do not know how the decision process works or which all bands have been accepted and why.

Read Morrigan's post, read MMisanthropo's post.

Clearer now??

I seriously doubt someone would conjure up a fake album just to get accepted here. No one is that pathetic. But I will say it's best that the band aramisdeathmetal is trying to submit post some blog on their MySpace regarding the release of this particular album.

Quote:
One more advice for you, go to Alestorm forum, you may find many new friends here, especially their German manager/producer.

Never heard of the site. Secondly, that wasn't a direct attack against you. It was against mod hypocrisy in general (which includes other things not relating to this topic). So please do not accuse me of coming off as high and mighty.


There were several cases of fake albums already, some by Iranian users and their fake bands, but there was even a case of some U.S. black metal band with a faked demo - they did it only to get listed on here.

A lot of users do not bother to read the rules at all.

Mod hypocrisy - there is none.
There may be mistakes, we are only human.
But try to avoid the use of double standars here. If you think there are some in other cases, you can adress the site owners directly. I am sure they will gladly answer you. As you could see, they read the lenghty threads on this forum...

For me Fear Factory's "Soul " album does not sound like Mnemic at all. For others it is all "industrial metal" and when the latter get rejected, he starts to cry about double standards. Those are not, the user is only not able to understand, that his definition of metal is rather different than his.
And so it is in most cases.

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~Guest 62838
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1745
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:56 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Viral wrote:
Witcher wrote:
It was not under the same circumstances. I like your high and mighty position, when you obviously do not know how the decision process works or which all bands have been accepted and why.

Read Morrigan's post, read MMisanthropo's post.

Clearer now??

I seriously doubt someone would conjure up a fake album just to get accepted here. No one is that pathetic. But I will say it's best that the band aramisdeathmetal is trying to submit post some blog on their MySpace regarding the release of this particular album.

Quote:
One more advice for you, go to Alestorm forum, you may find many new friends here, especially their German manager/producer.

Never heard of the site. Secondly, that wasn't a direct attack against you. It was against mod hypocrisy in general (which includes other things not relating to this topic). So please do not accuse me of coming off as high and mighty.


There were several cases of fake albums already, some by Iranian users and their fake bands, but there was even a case of some U.S. black metal band with a faked demo - they did it only to get listed on here.

A lot of users do not bother to read the rules at all.

Fake in what sense? No physical copies or no actual songs made? I see what you're saying, but then again you need to take into consideration the situation in countries like Iran where this kind of music is forbidden and punishable by imprisonment or even death. So it's very hard to produce (let alone record music of this kind) in a physical format without getting apprehended by the authorities. Though, I can understand fake bands coming out of the US where that sort of thing is more likely to occur.

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 1181
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:57 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
I seriously doubt someone would conjure up a fake album just to get accepted here. No one is that pathetic.


Completely fake albums are not as frequent, but demos that are still being planned or being recorded? We mods witness it several times a day.

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 1181
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:04 pm 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
That is what I am asking about. Why is it in some cases a tape with a marker-written label is convincing yet a CDr is not? I'm just talking about the consistency here, as I've seen other bands accepted with CDrs as well, a lot like this one.


There can be no consistency as to "what pieces of evidence are enough to convince us of the existence of a release". Any such demand can be faked or counterfeit if it's set in stone. Unless you want us to raise severe standards such as "it must have been reviewed in a printed magazine of massive circulation", it's more reasonable to leave it up to our common sense.

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Nightgaunt
I'll Swallow Your Soul

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:50 pm
Posts: 2922
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:06 pm 
 

As I've said countless times before, the presence of one mistake (or several) does not and should not necessitate committing oneself to another for the sake of artificial consistency. The music business is anything but consistent in its functioning and procedures. What you are seeing is not "hypocrisy." It is either a mistake (a natural result of having many independently-functioning mods) or, more likely, a product of a mod having carefully considered a given situation and deciding not to be detrimentally anal about the "proof" rule.

What separates some of these bands from those like the one being considered in this topic? There are a variety of possible answers, but the most straightforward one is that said bands probably had more corroborating evidence (included in the submission by the user) so as to suggest that they were actually distributed to a relevant degree--blog reviews of a live gig mentioning that the band was giving out free CDrs of their demo, distro pages mentioning that they'll include a free CDr promo of the band with every order, and so on. In some cases, even the evidence that the band is highly active and "upwardly mobile" (in a sense) may suffice as corroborating evidence. Any or all of the above and more may well explain the presence of bands whose admission-release is just a CDr with crooked handwriting on it; other factors have been considered. For clarification, it is true that a release that actually has enough pride taken in it that it has some kind of "art" or other attempt at presentation is generally a stronger argument of viability in itself, and may require less additional verification--something like this does not smack quite so hard of "I did this just to get into the Archive" as what one sees in cases of CDrs with magic marker on them. It has been pointed out that a person with a printer and enough of a hardon could very well make the same counterfeit, and this is indeed true. However, it is significantly less likely, especially given that rejections of actual metal bands on grounds like these are not permanent. There are things that we simply can't know, and all sorts of wacky scenarios that can (and do) occur. As such, we use a web of different criteria and considerations when making these calls. It will never be perfect, but perchance it may work well enough.

Now, if any you know of bands that are on this site that don't seem to have been subject to the above considerations, I implore you to make a mention of them in the "Why was Band X Accepted" thread. As aforesaid, mistakes should be dealt with by correcting or removing said mistakes, and not by committing further mistakes just so that we may have something as empty as perfect uniformity.

Had I a heart, it would be somewhat disheartening that some of the above still needs to be explained to some of you who have been here for so long.

To the OP, if you can come up with some of the corroborating evidence mentioned above, then the band can be reconsidered. Failing that, if you simply wait until the band has produced a release more readily identifiable as relevant, then that would work, too.
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Last edited by Nightgaunt on Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 638
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:06 pm 
 

MMisantropo wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
That is what I am asking about. Why is it in some cases a tape with a marker-written label is convincing yet a CDr is not? I'm just talking about the consistency here, as I've seen other bands accepted with CDrs as well, a lot like this one.


There can be no consistency as to "what pieces of evidence are enough to convince us of the existence of a release". Any such demand can be faked or counterfeit if it's set in stone. Unless you want us to raise severe standards such as "it must have been reviewed in a printed magazine of massive circulation", it's more reasonable to leave it up to our common sense.


That is what I wanted to hear... so what, in this case, leaves "common sense" to believe that this release is fake?
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~Guest 62838
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1745
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:17 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Mod hypocrisy - there is none.
There may be mistakes, we are only human.
But try to avoid the use of double standars here. If you think there are some in other cases, you can adress the site owners directly. I am sure they will gladly answer you. As you could see, they read the lenghty threads on this forum...

You're right. Mod hypocrisy is not a usual occurance, but to say it "never" happens is faulty. Yes, we are human. And as humans, self-contradiction is normal. We all do it...even those with authority. I'm not really going to point out specific examples because I don't want this to escalate into something big that will get Nightgaunt (who is most likely lurking about) to have me banned a second time. I know mods here have a low tolerance for criticism.

Quote:
For me Fear Factory's "Soul " album does not sound like Mnemic at all. For others it is all "industrial metal" and when the latter get rejected, he starts to cry about double standards. Those are not, the user is only not able to understand, that his definition of metal is rather different than his.
And so it is in most cases.

So then who's to say what's metal and what's not? Not to kick a dead horse, but why do we have darkwave and folk bands on here? This is the metal archives, not the metal and metal-related genres archives. I understand those particular bands are involved with metal and have close ties to the community, but in essence, their music is not metal. So Mortiis who is not even metal, is on here, but Mnemic, whose music is not metal, but metal-sounding (much more than that of Mortiis) is rejected. Doesn't make sense to me. But hey, your site, your rules. I don't want to argue too much.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:28 pm 
 

Side projects, usually. Except Mortiis, but that is cover up by other part of written rules.

I am not too excited about such projects here, but there are written rules, which describe, why they are here, so it did not come out of the blue. I could only repeat what Nighgaunt already said.

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~Guest 62838
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1745
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:34 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Side projects, usually. Except Mortiis, but that is cover up by other part of written rules.

I am not too excited about such projects here, but there are written rules, which describe, why they are here, so it did not come out of the blue. I could only repeat what Nighgaunt already said.

Fair enough. This thread has been derailed enough already.

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aramisdeathmetal
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:47 pm
Posts: 7
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:32 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Back then in demo tapes days, there was no online distribution of music, so you could sort out the possibility of a fraud quite easily.

I'm gonna stop arguing about this but...i really don't know how trying to post a band who obviously has put in time to make a demo is trying to fraud...

and morrigan never said what evidence WAS...

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MMisantropo
Magnificient Degluter of Yummy Ants

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 1181
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:51 pm 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
MMisantropo wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
That is what I am asking about. Why is it in some cases a tape with a marker-written label is convincing yet a CDr is not? I'm just talking about the consistency here, as I've seen other bands accepted with CDrs as well, a lot like this one.


There can be no consistency as to "what pieces of evidence are enough to convince us of the existence of a release". Any such demand can be faked or counterfeit if it's set in stone. Unless you want us to raise severe standards such as "it must have been reviewed in a printed magazine of massive circulation", it's more reasonable to leave it up to our common sense.


That is what I wanted to hear... so what, in this case, leaves "common sense" to believe that this release is fake?


Nobody here believe it's fake. We just aren't confident enough to tell for sure that it's been public released.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10527
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:57 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Fucking yuppie logic to think everyone can afford everything.

Well, you know... They may not be able to afford "everything", but usually, people with those things called "jobs" can afford a minimum of stuff. Including using the copying machine at the nearest library a few times.

...I know, I know, shocking foreign concept and all. ;)

Viral wrote:
I seriously doubt someone would conjure up a fake album just to get accepted here. No one is that pathetic.

You are entitled to this doubt. However, you would be wrong. I'm sorry if this lowers the respect you have for the human race, but it's sadly true.

Viral wrote:
Not to kick a dead horse, but, *kicks a dead horse*

Right.

aramisdeathmetal wrote:
I'm gonna stop arguing about this but...i really don't know how trying to post a band who obviously has put in time to make a demo is trying to fraud...

You're missing the point. In this case, there is no evidence that "a band has put in time to make a demo" to begin with, let alone releasing it.

Quote:
and morrigan never said what evidence WAS...

Since you ask: check Nightgaunt's post above. He has, once again, perfectly summarized the situation, and nothing more needs to be said about the subject.

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