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JoeCapricorn
Needs to stop pissing off the mods

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:36 pm
Posts: 139
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:20 am 
 

I'm somewhat confused about alternative metal, as while it has a few ties with Nu-Metal and mallcore, it is also listed as all or part of a genre for 66 bands here on the archives.

There are bands that play music that fits with the definition of Alternative Metal, or used to play such music, that aren't on here and never will be on here. Some bands play purely alternative metal, but since alternative metal is so varied and all, they aren't allowed on here.

For example, Slipknot's first album is Alternative Metal, rather than a mix of nu-metal and alternative metal on later albums. Obviously it's not going to get them on to this site.

Another example is Passenger and Mnemic, more borderline bands that still aren't on this site (and I'm not trying to argue for them, just hold your horses)

Another strange example is System of a Down, alternative metal is the most accurate description of their genre, but they aren't metal enough for this site. Hell no.

There are several bands that are on here, however, that play Alternative Metal in some form, whether it is in combination with a more traditional form of metal, or if alternative metal is their only genre.

http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=77263
http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=77132

The list isn't quite extensive, so I'm guessing that it is case by case, or like ambient - at the moderator's discretion. Or could there be more of a guide on what sorts of alternative metal is acceptable?

Say... alternative metal is acceptable if it is largely metal, obviously. Say it combines alternative with a genre other than Nu-Metal, like Alternative Death Metal, or Alternative Thrash Metal.
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MrBrad
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 5
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:23 am 
 

You would think that with Faith No More being listed (and rightly so), that it would automatically include Living Colour on the site.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:46 am 
 

JoeCapricorn wrote:
I'm somewhat confused about alternative metal, as while it has a few ties with Nu-Metal and mallcore, it is also listed as all or part of a genre for 66 bands here on the archives.

There are bands that play music that fits with the definition of Alternative Metal, or used to play such music, that aren't on here and never will be on here. Some bands play purely alternative metal, but since alternative metal is so varied and all, they aren't allowed on here.

For example, Slipknot's first album is Alternative Metal, rather than a mix of nu-metal and alternative metal on later albums. Obviously it's not going to get them on to this site.

Another example is Passenger and Mnemic, more borderline bands that still aren't on this site (and I'm not trying to argue for them, just hold your horses)

Another strange example is System of a Down, alternative metal is the most accurate description of their genre, but they aren't metal enough for this site. Hell no.

There are several bands that are on here, however, that play Alternative Metal in some form, whether it is in combination with a more traditional form of metal, or if alternative metal is their only genre.

http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=77263
http://metal-archives.com/band.php?id=77132

The list isn't quite extensive, so I'm guessing that it is case by case, or like ambient - at the moderator's discretion. Or could there be more of a guide on what sorts of alternative metal is acceptable?

Say... alternative metal is acceptable if it is largely metal, obviously. Say it combines alternative with a genre other than Nu-Metal, like Alternative Death Metal, or Alternative Thrash Metal.


You have answered your own question, yes, bands listed as such are usually metal bands, which feature influences from some none metal genres, but their music can still be reasonably defined as metal.

By the way, everybody can have different opinions, if this thread was really needed, imo not much. Asking about that is certainly not against the rules or bad, but I think you have already noticed where such discussions usually lead on this forum and how it often ends.

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JoeCapricorn
Needs to stop pissing off the mods

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:36 pm
Posts: 139
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:33 am 
 

...

Oh, right.

But while some bands are related to the nu-metal genre, there are others that aren't quite nu-metal, if at all nu-metal, that still aren't on here because they aren't metal enough. An example would be Powerman 5000 - Alternative Metal, but not even close to getting on this site.

I wonder if Alternative Metal could be mentioned in the rules... or if that would just be pointless because a lot of the stupid people don't read those anyway. (Or they don't know how)
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Muloc7253
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:47 am
Posts: 533
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:43 am 
 

JoeCapricorn wrote:
...

Oh, right.

But while some bands are related to the nu-metal genre, there are others that aren't quite nu-metal, if at all nu-metal, that still aren't on here because they aren't metal enough. An example would be Powerman 5000 - Alternative Metal, but not even close to getting on this site.

I wonder if Alternative Metal could be mentioned in the rules... or if that would just be pointless because a lot of the stupid people don't read those anyway. (Or they don't know how)


It has to sound more metal than it does alternative. Quite a no-brainer, really.
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SitraAhra
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:46 am
Posts: 286
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:03 pm 
 

I think that 90% bands with genre Death Metal/Deathcore, Death Metal/Hardcore should be NUKED.I call them ALTERNATIVE too. They even don't looks like TRUE METALHEADS but like fucking Emos or Hardcore kids.
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Reaper43
Painsponge

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:39 am
Posts: 625
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:08 pm 
 

Image has little to do with whether those bands are metal.
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SitraAhra
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:46 am
Posts: 286
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:13 pm 
 

Quote:
Image has little to do with whether those bands are metal.


Ha Ha Ha :D Trendy fuckers. I don't think so.....

http://static.metal-archives.com/images ... _photo.jpg
http://static.metal-archives.com/images ... _photo.jpg
http://static.metal-archives.com/images ... _photo.jpg
http://static.metal-archives.com/images ... _photo.jpg
http://static.metal-archives.com/images ... _photo.jpg

Someone stole denim,leather and spikes... :( Oh... And Hair...
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Last edited by SitraAhra on Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Mutalitia
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:59 pm
Posts: 1190
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:14 pm 
 

Muloc7253 wrote:
JoeCapricorn wrote:
...

Oh, right.

But while some bands are related to the nu-metal genre, there are others that aren't quite nu-metal, if at all nu-metal, that still aren't on here because they aren't metal enough. An example would be Powerman 5000 - Alternative Metal, but not even close to getting on this site.

I wonder if Alternative Metal could be mentioned in the rules... or if that would just be pointless because a lot of the stupid people don't read those anyway. (Or they don't know how)


It has to sound more metal than it does alternative. Quite a no-brainer, really.


Which really makes one wonder what a band like Faith No More is doing on this site.
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Reaper43
Painsponge

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:39 am
Posts: 625
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:36 pm 
 

SitraAhra wrote:


Funny is that some sort of insult to me since i submitted all those bands, because it doesn't really bother me. I only submit bands that i find that are metal enough and fall under the M-A's submission guidelines. Personally i find Deathcore bland and unoriginal, but that doesn't change the fact that most Deathcore bands are more metal then core. So even if you hate that i submit such bands, deal with it.

I don't bother to submit bands that I don't think are metal enough and my judgment has been pretty damn accurate as I've had very few rejections overall, and none in the last two weeks. Which for me is nearly 50 bands.

Oh well, your entitled to your opinion on Deathcore, and although i agree that it predominantly sucks it doesn't change the fact that it is metal. Thus image has really nothing to do with whether those bands deserve to be here.

Oh and the last band is Crossover the only reason for the attachment of Deathcore is that they use Guttural vocals periodically (typically on the hardcore style breakdowns) throughout their music, but it is mainly Thrash based Crossover with most of it's influences coming from Original HC and Thrash.
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SitraAhra
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:46 am
Posts: 286
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:01 pm 
 

OK I know what you mean :) ,but just a few minutes ago I entered shity MySpace and did search in HardCore genre.Gues what I found there? Almost 50 percent of bands sounded like that pornography called *****Core.Or Alternative,Or whatever... Rules should be corected.
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Osgilliath
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:38 pm
Posts: 282
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:18 pm 
 

Reaper43 wrote:
SitraAhra wrote:


Funny is that some sort of insult to me since i submitted all those bands, because it doesn't really bother me. I only submit bands that i find that are metal enough and fall under the M-A's submission guidelines. Personally i find Deathcore bland and unoriginal, but that doesn't change the fact that most Deathcore bands are more metal then core. So even if you hate that i submit such bands, deal with it.

I don't bother to submit bands that I don't think are metal enough and my judgment has been pretty damn accurate as I've had very few rejections overall, and none in the last two weeks. Which for me is nearly 50 bands.

Oh well, your entitled to your opinion on Deathcore, and although i agree that it predominantly sucks it doesn't change the fact that it is metal. Thus image has really nothing to do with whether those bands deserve to be here.

Oh and the last band is Crossover the only reason for the attachment of Deathcore is that they use Guttural vocals periodically (typically on the hardcore style breakdowns) throughout their music, but it is mainly Thrash based Crossover with most of it's influences coming from Original HC and Thrash.


You make a good point, but I personally like to see bands added that are entirely metal, not 'metal enough' for the mods to grudgingly allow them onto the database, and I think this is the problem a lot of other users are having as well. I'd rather have a qualified surgeon operating on me, not 'qualified enough' :lol:. Make no mistake, I'm guilty of adding some borderline bands, but I'm not here to pass judgement or pick fights whatsoever.

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FiveAcrossTheEyes
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:05 pm
Posts: 144
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:25 pm 
 

Mutalitia wrote:
Muloc7253 wrote:
JoeCapricorn wrote:
...

Oh, right.

But while some bands are related to the nu-metal genre, there are others that aren't quite nu-metal, if at all nu-metal, that still aren't on here because they aren't metal enough. An example would be Powerman 5000 - Alternative Metal, but not even close to getting on this site.

I wonder if Alternative Metal could be mentioned in the rules... or if that would just be pointless because a lot of the stupid people don't read those anyway. (Or they don't know how)


It has to sound more metal than it does alternative. Quite a no-brainer, really.


Which really makes one wonder what a band like Faith No More is doing on this site.


Faith No More kicks ass. I don't think that FNM should be kicked though. They influenced a lot of metal bands, and pretty much started their own form of metal. Just listen to "Suprise! You're Dead!" and tell me that song doesn't kick ass. :nods:
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Reaper43
Painsponge

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:39 am
Posts: 625
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:14 pm 
 

Osgilliath wrote:
You make a good point, but I personally like to see bands added that are entirely metal, not 'metal enough' for the mods to grudgingly allow them onto the database, and I think this is the problem a lot of other users are having as well. I'd rather have a qualified surgeon operating on me, not 'qualified enough' :lol:. Make no mistake, I'm guilty of adding some borderline bands, but I'm not here to pass judgement or pick fights whatsoever.


Well unfortunately If I was able to find purely metal bands I would submit them. Unfotunately I cannot, so I will continue to contribute the best I can. I have submitted more then my share of bands with no core influence and don't particularily see why I'm under the microscope here, it's not like I even like Deathcore, not to mention I don't own a single cd by any of the "core" bands I have submitted.

However, I would like to say that your being naive with the thought that any band is entirely metal. Every genre of metal draws influence from other non-metal genres. To think otherwise makes very little sense.

Personally I think alot of the bad-attitude towards Deathcore recently has little to do with the metalness of the genre and has alot more too do with it's trendiness. I personally however dislike the genre because the majority of the bands within it have little variance in sound, not because it contains a core aspect. If i hated "core" I wouldn't enjoy Crossover or even Thrash to a lesser extent.

Edit: I realized after I wrote this that it could be interpreted as angry, but I'm not :lol:. I'm just open to discussing the whole topic, and that's my assessment of Deathcore in general. I don't mind replies but if i don't entirely agree I will refute. :lol: Actually it's nice to have a conversation about metal for once that doesn't involve the typical "you listen to 'insert name' they suck." Intelligent conversation is great.
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Last edited by Reaper43 on Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mutalitia
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:59 pm
Posts: 1190
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:19 pm 
 

FiveAcrossTheEyes wrote:
Faith No More kicks ass. I don't think that FNM should be kicked though. They influenced a lot of metal bands, and pretty much started their own form of metal. Just listen to "Suprise! You're Dead!" and tell me that song doesn't kick ass. :nods:


Ugh, I just listened to that song and it was pretty bad. Sounded like Pantera with a rapper. There was a cool part that sounded almost like Death but it only lasted about 15 seconds.
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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:18 am 
 

That's a problem with this site, lots of vague and fuzzy boundaries in areas like metal core and "alternative metal" due to a lack of a really coherent definition of metal. Bands like Alice In Chains and Faith No More, where the basis is hard/alt rock and there is only a metal influence should be gone if you ask me. I think a lot of this is caused by most of the mods and contributors having a metal-centric viewpoint and a lack of knowledge of other genres, metalheads tend to pick out the metal characteristics in nonmetal bands and say "that belongs here" instead of taking each band and looking at what category they best fit into. This requires more than extensive knowledge of metal, you have to know about the overlapping genre and the scene associated with it. With a lot of the crossover and grind bands you see on here I wonder if punk-archives.com would consider Slayer "punk enough" to be listed...

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Reaper43
Painsponge

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:39 am
Posts: 625
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:39 pm 
 

I've been thinking about it and if the mods who are accepting my submissions are doing so grudgingly I would like them to PM me. If my submissions really are that annoying then I would like to be informed privately so that i may adapt what I submit as not to be a pain.
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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:58 pm 
 

The discussion is again starting to get pointless and again that crying over Faith No More being listed here.

Their are people who consistently submit much worse crap than Reaper43 and even proudly present it here in forum, even if it is lightyears away from being metal.

At least some of your submissions amuse me, since one of the bands was named This Was Inevitable. I have chosen them as an example just because of the name, but what an irony... :lol:

What more to say - simply avoid those that are too modern hardcore based, punkish or Dillinger like.

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Reaper43
Painsponge

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:39 am
Posts: 625
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:06 pm 
 

I avoid anything with the technical sound i.e. Dillinger Escape Plan like the plague :lol:, at the very least the Deathcore bands are Death Metal first and core second. I thought This Was Inevitable was a rather amusing name as well, especially since they just broke up.

You know it's sad but when you search for Death Metal the majority of results come up with Deathcore bands. Personally I'm starting to get very tired of it because my original intention was too find "real" Death Metal bands missing from the archives. Maybe I should start looking for Black Metal at least then I won't be plagued with bands that have a "core" attachment.
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Osgilliath
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:38 pm
Posts: 282
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:27 pm 
 

Reaper43 wrote:
Osgilliath wrote:
You make a good point, but I personally like to see bands added that are entirely metal, not 'metal enough' for the mods to grudgingly allow them onto the database, and I think this is the problem a lot of other users are having as well. I'd rather have a qualified surgeon operating on me, not 'qualified enough' :lol:. Make no mistake, I'm guilty of adding some borderline bands, but I'm not here to pass judgement or pick fights whatsoever.


Well unfortunately If I was able to find purely metal bands I would submit them. Unfotunately I cannot, so I will continue to contribute the best I can. I have submitted more then my share of bands with no core influence and don't particularily see why I'm under the microscope here, it's not like I even like Deathcore, not to mention I don't own a single cd by any of the "core" bands I have submitted.

However, I would like to say that your being naive with the thought that any band is entirely metal. Every genre of metal draws influence from other non-metal genres. To think otherwise makes very little sense.

Personally I think alot of the bad-attitude towards Deathcore recently has little to do with the metalness of the genre and has alot more too do with it's trendiness. I personally however dislike the genre because the majority of the bands within it have little variance in sound, not because it contains a core aspect. If i hated "core" I wouldn't enjoy Crossover or even Thrash to a lesser extent.

Edit: I realized after I wrote this that it could be interpreted as angry, but I'm not :lol:. I'm just open to discussing the whole topic, and that's my assessment of Deathcore in general. I don't mind replies but if i don't entirely agree I will refute. :lol: Actually it's nice to have a conversation about metal for once that doesn't involve the typical "you listen to 'insert name' they suck." Intelligent conversation is great.


Of course, every genre of metal has had external influences that have helped form it, though the non-metal influences will become less prominent as metal progresses (such would not be the case with folk metal, as the folk component is integral to the sound). However, a band influenced by Darkthrone most likely will not find influence from Siouxsie or The Testors.

I agree with you though, most metalheads question the validity of metal/deathcore because of the very un-metal scene that surrounds the music; pretty much everything about it is detestable, from guyliner to hardcore dancing. I still don't like seeing it here, and I doubt my opinion will change, but the 'more metal than core' rule is an effective way of keeping out Atreyu and their ilk.

Edit: And no worries, it didn't come off as angry one bit. It's always nice to get the opposing view of one's own beliefs, and like you said, intelligent discussion is always appreciated.
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