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Lord Nordhausen
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 57
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:43 pm 
 

I've been listening to some stuff by nirvana, the Melvins, Pearl Jam, Motherlove Bone, even Skin Yard and Alice In Chains. Nirvana has tons of songs that sound like sludge metal and one of their songs, Aerozeppelin www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwYzzN1AIqw
, is totally stoner rock. The Melvins, 9/10 of their stuff sounds like they were on shrooms when they recorded it, and 9/10s of that is total sludge/stoner metal. Pearl Jam and Mother Love bone have the psychedelic rock influences. Have you heard Pearl Jam's "Black"? www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs-XZ_dN4Hc that sounds exactly like what I'd expect stoner pop rock to sound like with an epic riff/melody to boot, Skin Yard's more heavy rock but if I had to label them, they'd be stoner rock.
Alice In Chains? DOOM METAL, STONER DOOM METAL, listen to this shit!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAZcFVuSo0M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5DlL4y1Q78
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR0K0mmm6R4
And don't get me started with Soundgarden. If you didn't tell me that they were grunge, I'd say they're your better than average Black Sabbath worshippers.
I know there was a ton of punk and alternative rock, but if you ask me, I think grunge was the popularization of stoner rock. Even Mudhoney's stoner rock. They just called it as punk or grunge so they wouldn't get bashed for being called weed rock or something. The more I listen to grunge, there more I'm convinced.
Grunge must be like sludge-light. Listen to sludge metal, then listen to Mudhoney's In n Out of Grace or Nirvana's Negative Creep or Melvin's Honeybucket. Just damn.

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The SHM
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 134
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:47 pm 
 

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=94285
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7952
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:37 pm 
 

"Grunge" isn't really a valid genre. It's just a dumb name some journalist slapped on the Seattle scene because there are some similarities between the various bands.

Pearl Jam definitely have a huge arena rock/Bruce Springsteen/classic rock influence. Melvins were straight up sludge. Soundgarden was hard rock-ish, Leppelin-ish heavy metal, Alice in Chains are heavy/doom metal, Mudhoney are noisy punk rock. Nirvana kind of veered between Mudhoney, Melvins, Big Black-ish noise and Beatles-esque elements.

If it weren't for the fact that these bands all came from the same area, shared some similar influences and had a similar slacker/junkie apathetic punk ethos, "grunge" as a genre tag wouldn't exist as these bands are all too dissimilar to really lump together musically. Some have "stoner" elements but I wouldn't say it's really central to the majority of "grunge" bands.
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Doomed Cowboy
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 8:21 pm
Posts: 209
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:05 pm 
 

Most Grunge is doomy-punk or sludge/light-sludge.

Plus, the Melvins created sludge, so, yeah.
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dystopia4
Thumbman

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
Posts: 3568
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:26 pm 
 

Doomed Cowboy wrote:
Most Grunge is doomy-punk or sludge/light-sludge.

Plus, the Melvins created sludge, so, yeah.

*The Melvins were one of the bands that created sludge.

Grunge has a connection to sludge in that a lot of it is doom meets punk, just manifested in a different way. As for stoner, there is some layover for sure, but they are hardly the same thing.
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the_raytownian
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:09 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:33 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
"Grunge" isn't really a valid genre. It's just a dumb name some journalist slapped on the Seattle scene because there are some similarities between the various bands.


This, exactly.

"Grunge" as a title applied to the regional scene in Seattle was pretty diverse, musically speaking.
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the_raytownian
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:36 pm 
 

Doomed Cowboy wrote:
Plus, the Melvins created sludge, so, yeah.


um.... yeah, sure, okay.
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The SHM
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:54 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:45 pm 
 

Grunge is a scene. Most think it's a genre that Nirvana created, but then again most think Elvis created rock and roll and the Constitution was written on July 4, 1776.

Definitely a huge doom metal influence- try getting anyone to refer to it as doom metal, I dare you- but more sludge and punk than anything. Weird, there are really two true forms of 'Post-Grunge.' The 'Post-Grunge' music from Creed, Candlebox, Days of the New, Nickelback, Bush, etc... and the Sludge Metal movement, which is far less reported since it has relations to doom metal.
Something touches doom metal, no one wants to talk about it.
But on topic, I can't call grunge 'stoner rock' necessarily. Definitely an Ur example of what would become stoner rock (same premise= fuzzy guitars, bass, hardcore punk cited as influences, doom metal influence) but the bands aren't too similar beyond a point, grunge didn't spam flanging, phasing, and wah wah pedals, and grunge is generally much poppier. As pop as they tried calling it, at least.
I also always felt that grunge was more... 'ironic' in its subject matter ('Daddy's little girl ain't a girl no more'/'He's somebody's daughter') than stoner rock ('Let's get high'/'hope you die')

Quote:
um.... yeah, sure, okay.

That's actually not far off from the truth. They really did introduce the sludgier sounds to metal. I'd call it Proto-Sludge, somewhere between SubPop grunge and all out Sludge metal.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAl3A2pYFhM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B09LwEPdBA

Observe...
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92% of teens have cleanly divided themselves according to genres. If you're part of the 8% that doesn't give a shit why others listen to their music, then I don't care. Just enjoy the damn music.

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iAm
Wastelander

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:18 am
Posts: 5630
Location: West of the Duwamish due South of the Sound
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:50 pm 
 

Grunge
noun Slang.
1. dirt; filth; rubbish.
2. something of inferior quality; trash.

Basically, Grunge is trash and a journalist used it to describe the particular sound and look Rock bands from Seattle and surrounding neighborhoods had, and it stuck.
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dystopia4
Thumbman

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:54 pm 
 

The SHM wrote:
That's actually not far off from the truth. They really did introduce the sludgier sounds to metal. I'd call it Proto-Sludge, somewhere between SubPop grunge and all out Sludge metal.

Yeah, they were an extension on some of the stuff that Black Flag were doing on My War. Those first two albums were definitely "proto-sludge", but didn't leap completely into the void. The bands that did that first were Crowbar and Eyehategod. I'm pretty sure that Crowbars debut can be considered the first fully sludge metal album.
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the_raytownian
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:09 am
Posts: 2317
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:55 pm 
 

The SHM wrote:
Quote:
um.... yeah, sure, okay.

That's actually not far off from the truth. They really did introduce the sludgier sounds to metal. I'd call it Proto-Sludge, somewhere between SubPop grunge and all out Sludge metal.


Thing is, "Sludge" =/= a "Metal" genre, and there were plenty of "Sludgy"/dirty/noisy Punk bands comparable to Melvins anyway. They just aren't as MTV-famous for being part of "the grunge scene".

Flipper, Kilslug, Rusted Shut, just 3 off the top of my head... Plus, the aforementioned Big Black. All before/at/around the same time... and who doesn't know Flipper?

My only point is there was a lot of "Proto-Sludge" besides Melvins... and I doubt most "TVRE SLUDGE" was only influenced by them.
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TheGrimWombat
Nelson Wannabe

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 1421
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:13 pm 
 

People that say there is anything metal about Melvins, are just plain wrong, anyway :)
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The SHM
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 134
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:26 pm 
 

The SHM wrote:
That's actually not far off from the truth. They really did introduce the sludgier sounds to metal. I'd call it Proto-Sludge, somewhere between SubPop grunge and all out Sludge metal.


Thing is, "Sludge" =/= a "Metal" genre, and there were plenty of "Sludgy"/dirty/noisy Punk bands comparable to Melvins anyway. They just aren't as MTV-famous for being part of "the grunge scene".

Flipper, Kilslug, Rusted Shut, just 3 off the top of my head... Plus, the aforementioned Big Black. All before/at/around the same time... and who doesn't know Flipper?

My only point is there was a lot of "Proto-Sludge" besides Melvins... and I doubt most "TVRE SLUDGE" was only influenced by them.[/quote]
Well yeah, there's always that, the point I was trying to say was that the Melvins did help. Them and a bunch of others. The Melvins are just one of the more well known obviously.

TheGrimWombat wrote:
People that say there is anything metal about Melvins, are just plain wrong, anyway :)

People that say there is anything discernibly genre music about the Melvins, are just plain wrong anyway! Really, if you can definitively label The Melvins, Jesus Christ should come down and kiss your ass.
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You say "Justin Bieber", I say... OK. So?
92% of teens have cleanly divided themselves according to genres. If you're part of the 8% that doesn't give a shit why others listen to their music, then I don't care. Just enjoy the damn music.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 215
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:34 pm 
 

dystopia4 wrote:
The SHM wrote:
That's actually not far off from the truth. They really did introduce the sludgier sounds to metal. I'd call it Proto-Sludge, somewhere between SubPop grunge and all out Sludge metal.

Yeah, they were an extension on some of the stuff that Black Flag were doing on My War. Those first two albums were definitely "proto-sludge", but didn't leap completely into the void. The bands that did that first were Crowbar and Eyehategod. I'm pretty sure that Crowbars debut can be considered the first fully sludge metal album.


I think Graveyard Rodeo were the first Sludge band.

They formed in 1980 which is earlier than anyone else that had any sludge sound to them that I know of other than Black Flag who might have influenced Sludge but were more hardcore punk.

The Melvins didn't form till 83 and Crowbar didn't form till 89, even though both had actual full length albums before GR but GR had released demos according to MA.

I however, agree with the guy who said that Grunge is just a homogenous term for all bands from that era from Seattle even when many had different styles.

Some had some stoner rock, some some sludge, some not.

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dystopia4
Thumbman

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:46 pm 
 

Interesting, I've never heard of this Graveyard Rodeo band, I'll have to check them out. For the record I wasn't saying that Crowbar was the first sludge band, I was saying they were probably the first to record an all out sludge full length. As for the Black Flag thing, yeah although they aren't full sludge by today's standards, the second side to My War pretty much got the ball rolling. Sludge basically came out of hardcore punk bands slowing down and adding Sabbath influences.
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absurder21
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:51 pm
Posts: 673
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:09 pm 
 

the_raytownian wrote:
Doomed Cowboy wrote:
Plus, the Melvins created sludge, so, yeah.


um.... yeah, sure, okay.

They did... Unless you think it was Black Flag, which does have merit. Other then that, it's undeniable.

TheGrimWombat wrote:
People that say there is anything metal about Melvins, are just plain wrong, anyway :)

You're just....so, so, sososososo wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPd0ICErfF0


Last edited by absurder21 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dystopia4
Thumbman

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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:10 pm 
 

I still think of those two Melvins records that were released before Crowbar and Eyehategod to be proto-sludge rather than full on sludge metal.
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TheGrimWombat
Nelson Wannabe

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 1421
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:45 pm 
 

absurder21 wrote:

TheGrimWombat wrote:
People that say there is anything metal about Melvins, are just plain wrong, anyway :)

You're just....so, so, sososososo wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPd0ICErfF0


Everyone's got different opinions. I don't really hear what other people hear in this band.
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Doomed Cowboy
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 8:21 pm
Posts: 209
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:08 pm 
 

I also don't get why there's such a disdain by some when it comes to any punk influences- how much less extreme metal would there be if thrash hadn't come from its punk influences?

I also wasn't trying to say the Melvins created sludge single handedly, I was just trying to make a sludge-grunge connection, seeing as they fit into both genres to an extent.
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Ill-Starred Son
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 215
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:48 am 
 

Doomed Cowboy wrote:
I also don't get why there's such a disdain by some when it comes to any punk influences- how much less extreme metal would there be if thrash hadn't come from its punk influences?

I also wasn't trying to say the Melvins created sludge single handedly, I was just trying to make a sludge-grunge connection, seeing as they fit into both genres to an extent.


I'll second the notion that punk influences are not to be scoffed at.

As a metal head of about 20 years now my newest thing is to search out all the most heavily crust punk and D-Beat influenced bands and I love punk influence in metal and vice versa.

However, I always liked some punk so that's no surprise.

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The SHM
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:54 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:47 pm 
 

We've started discussing punk, and I like this direction because this really answers the OP's unstated question: Grunge, while it has its stoneriffic stylism (Soundgarden is indeed one of the Ur examples of stoner rock), wears a bigger punk and alt-metal outfit.
So no, stoner rock hasn't exploded onto the mainstream... yet.

Doomed Cowboy wrote:
I also don't get why there's such a disdain by some when it comes to any punk influences- how much less extreme metal would there be if thrash hadn't come from its punk influences?

I believe it's because punk is so 'three chords and the truth' while metal purists point to 'metal riffs'- which are, by nature, complex- as a major divider between the two. Punk tends to be much simpler, and metal can be simple too but metal purists always point to the most complex era of metal as being the standard metal's set. In a lot of punk, it's a straight shot to the end whereas in metal, there's a bit more sonic diversity.
Also, in punk, there's less need for talent and in some subgenres, having any mote of talent in playing is looked down upon; hence the 'screaming' part which eventually evolved into the death growls of modern extreme metal. But on its own, some metal fans probably wouldn't see it as being enough.

I'm pretty sure I'm totally wrong.

Quote:
I also wasn't trying to say the Melvins created sludge single handedly, I was just trying to make a sludge-grunge connection, seeing as they fit into both genres to an extent.

As I always say, grunge is sludge-lite.
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You say "Justin Bieber", I say... OK. So?
92% of teens have cleanly divided themselves according to genres. If you're part of the 8% that doesn't give a shit why others listen to their music, then I don't care. Just enjoy the damn music.

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elf48687789
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:03 pm
Posts: 1634
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:47 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
"Grunge" isn't really a valid genre. It's just a dumb name some journalist slapped on the Seattle scene because there are some similarities between the various bands.

Pearl Jam definitely have a huge arena rock/Bruce Springsteen/classic rock influence. Melvins were straight up sludge. Soundgarden was hard rock-ish, Leppelin-ish heavy metal, Alice in Chains are heavy/doom metal, Mudhoney are noisy punk rock. Nirvana kind of veered between Mudhoney, Melvins, Big Black-ish noise and Beatles-esque elements.

If it weren't for the fact that these bands all came from the same area, shared some similar influences and had a similar slacker/junkie apathetic punk ethos, "grunge" as a genre tag wouldn't exist as these bands are all too dissimilar to really lump together musically. Some have "stoner" elements but I wouldn't say it's really central to the majority of "grunge" bands.
I agree with this.

Another band with stoner elements is Screaming Trees.

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