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ChaosGoatKills
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:38 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Los Osos, California
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:58 am 
 

I don't know if this thread exists. A search yielded nothing.

Anyway, I've been getting into the teachings of Crowley and reading the Book Of The Law as well as Magick Without Tears. I am stumped on Qaballah and all of the numbers a bit, but I'm pressing on. Does anyone else here study the occult, and if so, what do you recommend reading/studying?

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2114
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:45 pm 
 

Are you of the pure? Are you of the few? This content is not the stuff of coffee shops and wanker scenes to bandy about over tall boys and to impress and mount the squirting trollops. If you would look up the skirt of the Universe, you must first approach with humility and grace unknown to the lumpen proletariat.

You must be as a mouse among lions, a kiwi among eagles, a shell among stones.

Heed these grudging words, thou unwashed grasper. They are but charity to one who would have answers with no learning, who would fly before he can climb, through no work of his own. They are engravings upon the first, the lowest and most base of the temple steps. Study deeply the lyrics of Absu, the title tracks and inferences of Memoria Vetusta II: Dialogue with the Stars (and all Vindsval's interviews), repeatedly converse with the discography of One Master, the zones of Arcana Coelestia, the depths of Acherontas, and heed, HEED DEEPLY the broken glyphs among the ruins of Bifrost. And once thou hast taken this arcane and potent wisdom into your unworthy heart, give lots and lots of money to Ouroboros Press BUT NOT UNTIL THOU HAST FOUND WATER AMONGST THE BLOOD!! As you, a pallid facsimile of Theseus, spend your time running haphazardly through the semantic maze of troll and treasure, play at high volume in your mass produced ear buds In the Void and the Serpent the Spirit is One whilst leaving behind you a fine trail of salt drizzled from a purple velvet bag embroidered in gold with the Vitruvian Man.

Behold thou unworthy, greedy, and uncalm rummager through the dutifully coded trove, the icon of TRUE WISDOM!

Spoiler: show
Image

ALL ART IS MAGIC

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Acidgobblin
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 2234
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:26 am 
 

^I think he might actually be serious you know? Just pissing on him is actually not especially funny, moreso when it seems you put so much time and thought into this...

OP, I wouldn't say I study the occult, but I've read a fair bit about it and experienced some (quite awkward) rituals, the results of which may have been influenced by the consumption of drugs.

Try reading some stuff by Israel Regardie such as Tree of Life. Its very wordy but interesting and has some good information on Qaballah (hermetic moreso then Hebrew) as well as Enochian magick. On that note, theres some ritual books by Lon Mildo duQuette that are worth a look at.

Take it all with a grain of salt. I have never found this stuff to be practically useful but are interesting in the way a fictitious book can be. Its an intriguing side of life to be partially immersed in.
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2114
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:19 am 
 

If he holds my post under the proper light he will see I'm NOT pissing on him, nor will I spoon feed, since that's part of the occult game, isn't it? What's the occult without cryptic meaning? Besides, he should know that by now. I handed him plenty of material. You just don't have the sight, Acidgobblin. ;)

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ChaosGoatKills
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:38 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Los Osos, California
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:53 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
If he holds my post under the proper light he will see I'm NOT pissing on him, nor will I spoon feed, since that's part of the occult game, isn't it? What's the occult without cryptic meaning? Besides, he should know that by now. I handed him plenty of material. You just don't have the sight, Acidgobblin. ;)

Although I had to sift through your post for the meaning, I appreciate you not wanting to spoon-feed me. I was mainly starting this thread to find books on Qaballah and to promote discussion between members who are also knowledge seekers. I will definitely be checking out what Acidgobblin suggested.

Moving beyond this, I truly believe that spiritual knowledge should be available to those who truly seek it. Capitalist fraternities that keep Thelemic works unavailable like the OTO only hinder spiritual growth (unless you're rich, then by all means, you can buy your way in to being spiritual). Thoughts?

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:26 pm 
 

Just to pull the curtain down entirely, you likely won't find much support for this on this board (or much discussion beyond "it's bollocks"). And rightly so, since the occult is a realm of study fraught with lies and simony. Seriously, the inner sanctum of truth (if there is even one to find) won't be found on the Psychic Eye's book shelf. I'm not wrong about the attitude one has to have in order to approach the occult's mysteries. The phrase "pearls before swine" is an old one. That said, Crowley was a known troll, and as I've said on this board before, all gods, all myths are symbols. Take none of it literally, and if you want to read the work of someone else who was convinced he was in the presence of angels, read Blake because he's a much better writer.

If you insist, keep to the scholarly side of things as far as the reading goes, like Initiation into Hermetics by Franz Bardon. He was a scientist who took an interest in Hermetic philosophy and went about his work with cautious diligence, not the hand-over-fist voraciousness of petty, grasping magicians or the swallow-it-whole credulous who end up squandering their lives over tomes, their "enlightenment" in actuality being delusions of grandeur (the eventual pitfall of all believers). Also, Carl Jung took an interest in medieval and Chinese alchemy, and wrote about it extensively but cautiously as well. See Psychology and Alchemy and perhaps have a look The Secret of the Golden Flower, which he wrote the commentary for in the translation by his friend Richard Wilhelm. If those are too clinical for you and you get off on wondering whether or not you're being tricked, spend money at Ouroboros Press and look at the library of Danny Carey from Tool, who's an occult bibliophile. He's rich enough to buy first editions, but he's also smart enough to just start his own lodge and try the stuff out for himself. But, really, the search for "knowledge" is to tempt the butt-reaming of Loki, so it's your call.

In the meantime, listen to metal. Lots and lots of metal. It'll do more for the gestalt you're looking for than really any book, in my opinion, and save you time dressing stupidly and struggling over semantics.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9624
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:41 pm 
 

^ I can't tell if you're just taking the piss, or really a pretentious moron....

(Btw, yes, it's all bollocks, just like religion or New Age woo-woo.)
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Terri23
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2096
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:38 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
New Age woo-woo.


Love the James Randi spin here.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4694
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:16 pm 
 

I guess I wouldn't believe in anything if it weren't for my lucky astrology mood watch.
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2114
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:31 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
^ I can't tell if you're just taking the piss, or really a pretentious moron....

See what I mean, OP?

@Morrigan: In the first post I'm taking the piss out of pretentious morons with an intentional stylistic similarity to the crud he's likely reading, making the point that there are in fact sometimes things which are personally useful in a pile of bad writing, depending on how you read it. After that, I'm offering him something actually interesting and worth reading. I've made similar blind stabs into the subject as he is, and I'm hoping to help him avoid a lot of the shit people spew about the occult. None of the books I recommended are bullshit (have you read them?), and none of the music, either. Intelligent people have explored this stuff without becoming stupid (or believers) as a result, and it's to those books I'm pointing him, not to the worthless cliches. The books, like I said, are explorations of this dubious subject made by men of science. That's the difference between skepticism and incredulity. Saying that some decent scholars have made interesting studies of it doesn't mean I'm a moron by extension, nor does it mean the subject is bestowed with some kind of legitimacy. Let the work speak for itself. There are interesting books I've read, but for which I take no credit and about which I make no claims other than that the perspectives of the authors are not those of either piss-takers OR morons. They're the only ones worth reading on the subject.

You just went to the Absu show and deemed it awesome. They write "mythological metal" with lyrics thick with occult reference (what ARE the Eye and the Seed of Asaru? the Eastern Candle? the position of stone? Abraxas -- a name that features in Hesse's Demian also? Literal things or metaphors more intriguing and useful? Or poetry used for gestalt?). Surely that doesn't automatically make them morons, or you for liking their work. Surely someone can take a passing interest in a curious subject for personal reasons and there will be variations of how seriously one takes it. It shouldn't matter, but since it does, I don't take it very seriously at all. He's interested, and I threw him some worthy chew toys.

What I do take seriously is being insulted, a user who's been generally polite (though perhaps clumsy at times) since his joining. I happen to respect you a great deal for your work here, but it's frustrating to have to conform to some kind of incurious and inflexible foregoing censorship or else be dubbed out of hand either a moron or a troll.

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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:25 am 
 

The thing about the Occult, which is a really crap name to give to knowledge that really should be in the possession of everyone, is that it's all in the mind. Literally. There are all these wordy books that claim to take knowledge from the distant past, full of unintelligible scrawl and demonic hogwash. Then there are people who worship the nail clippings of Crowley. But, the truth is that it's all inside you already. You just have to know how to get to it.

The best thing I could ever tell someone who wants to, er, study the Occult, is that there is nothing more powerful than belief. There can be no doubts. Anything you want is within your grasp as long as you have the strength of belief. Oh, and lighting a candle won't help, unless the candle means something to the person lighting it.

Here endeth the lesson!

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9624
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:57 am 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
You just went to the Absu show and deemed it awesome. They write "mythological metal" with lyrics thick with occult reference [...] Surely that doesn't automatically make them morons, or you for liking their work.

Wow. If you think that is remotely meaningful or relevant, then I guess my initial query has been answered. :lol:

drterror666 wrote:
Anything you want is within your grasp as long as you have the strength of belief.

:durr:
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2398
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:00 pm 
 

Read the bible. There are different ways to read it, being the literal one the worst (any Priest should be able to answer some questions and tell you in general terms how you can read the bible for further understanding, like Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God (the father) are one and the same). Many of the books about the 'occult' are interpretations of biblical events mixed with older symbolisms (that's a given since the bible itself is a sort of compilation of old myths and stories). Qabalah is the 'other' source of those paths, which are again based on oldest forms of pagan cults. You can see how Proscriptor from Absu quotes some stuff from the Hermetic Qabalah and its branches.

See for example the 'cult' of Qayin. if you read Liber Falxifer and many other related stuff you'll see that deep inside is just what I've said (for example, Watain's Hymn to Qayin is nothing more than a prey for a symbol, a darkest representation of the rejected one by God - see the offering given by Abel and Cain to God and how God gave his favor to Abel for Qayin's selfishness (individuality and any other deep adjective you want to add).

Now if you wanna get some coherent cosmogenesis from Crowley, like understanding who and what are (how is composed), for example, Ra-Hoor-Khuit (as a manifestation of Aiwass himself), you'll need to read a lot and try to share impressions with others. Also, numerology is needed for futher understanding to identify how some of the 'presences' are formed and/or where they came from. How many complex forms for Horus there are? tons.

For a different but related perspective, read about Pan.
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2114
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:01 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Grave_Wyrm wrote:
You just went to the Absu show and deemed it awesome. They write "mythological metal" with lyrics thick with occult reference [...] Surely that doesn't automatically make them morons, or you for liking their work.

Wow. If you think that is remotely meaningful or relevant, then I guess my initial query has been answered. :lol:

:| .. no goats for you.

It just seems like you're being intentionally difficult. We're talking about the occult, so it's relevant. Our mutual enjoyment of their work is an example of liking a project intimately involved with the occult without either of us being dupes by association, so it's meaningful. Using a meager connection from your own experience to try to make my point transforms me suddenly into a pretentious moron? MAGICIAN!! Anyone who posts here with anything but a pat rejection is an idiot? come on ..

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megalowho
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 479
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:29 pm 
 

I'm not really interested in or knowledgeable about the occult directly or specifically, but I did some quick surfing on Wikipedia, keeping an eye out for familiar authors whose works I've either purchased or considered purchasing. I found a couple things that might (or might not) be relevant, or at least loosely related; others can correct me if these are totally off the mark.

First, I saw Neoplatonism mentioned in a few places as an ancient inspiration for esotericism. The centerpiece of that movement is probably Plotinus's Enneads - Penguin has an abridged version, and Hackett has some representative selections compiled into a single (shorter) volume called The Essential Plotinus. As for secondary literature, I'm intrigued by Pierre Hadot's Plotinus or the Simplicity of Vision, which seems rather popular and welcoming to newcomers. Past that, there's the bibliography from the Stanford Encyclopedia article on Plotinus.

Second, Rudolf Steiner (Wiki) wrote a ton of stuff; I hardly know a thing about him, but he's been called "arguably the most historically and philosophically sophisticated spokesperson of the Esoteric Tradition". Judging just by the number of Amazon reviews, it looks like his most popular work is How to Know Higher Worlds. But he seems to consider A Philosophy of Freedom his most philosophically significant work.

edit: FYI, I noticed that two of the three one-star reviews for How to Know Higher Worlds recommend a version from another publisher.

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ChaosGoatKills
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:38 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Los Osos, California
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:39 pm 
 

I feel like I've opened the can of wyrm's by starting this thread.

Anyway that book by Franz Bardon looks really interesting. I'll check it out when I find some time.

And what drterror said is only true to a certain extent. Doubt is generally a hindrance, but I've found that venturing on the path without some due skepticism is equally foolhardy. Best to find some sort of middle ground, is it not?

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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:49 am 
 

ChaosGoatKills wrote:
what drterror said is only true to a certain extent. Doubt is generally a hindrance, but I've found that venturing on the path without some due skepticism is equally foolhardy. Best to find some sort of middle ground, is it not?


Yes, the fun here is finding your own personal middle ground, so to speak. Everything you can do is based on manipulating the energy of the universe. How you go about using that, well, that's your business.

There are a lot of books out there, including the Bible, that contain all kinds of hocus pocus bollox. The best ones to read are the ones that aren't shrouded in mystery or diabolic nonsense. And don't get me started on religion, including Wiccanism, Paganism, Satanism and all that jazz. They're all wrapped up in their own crap and give you no room to breath.

As I said before, anything you want is within your grasp as long as you have the strength of belief. With that I don't mean externally, I mean internally. Gods are false, your connection to the universe is not. I purposefully don't wrap up what I'm saying in cryptic crap because that's just for the self-centred and self-important.

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FearTheNome
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:41 am
Posts: 372
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:41 pm 
 

drterror666 wrote:
As I said before, anything you want is within your grasp as long as you have the strength of belief.


Many things in my life have failed to happen when I really, truly believed that they would. Conversely, many things have happened to me that I did not expect. This claim falls apart under even the most rudimentary analysis.

Unless you're saying that if I really believed then I would have invoked one of these ludicrous occult methods. But if that's true and those things work, then why do they all read like a laundry list of ways to fool yourself into thinking some magic happened? Every occult thing I've ever read has either been obvious nonsense or methods that we know from psychology are just ways to invoke cognitive biases..

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2114
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:22 pm 
 

drterror666 wrote:
Gods are false, your connection to the universe is not.

Actually, your connection to the universe is seriously dubious and most likely non-existant. Many would say "there's nothing PERHAPS about it". In the end, you likely only have belief to support an animistic claim.

As far as manipulating the energies of the universe, that's a semantic black hole. Which energies and by which method of operation? Specify the mechanics of your process. Operating the material stuff of the universe like electricity or combustion engines is, in a way, operating its energies, of course, but learning to harness the strange behaviors of physics does not by extension mean that magic or something like telekinetics have any basis in anything but metaphor (or illusion).

Metaphor and symbol only have interpretive effects, not material ones, which is why I recommended some of the books I mentioned. They take a skeptic's view of the subject, not a believer's. In his Psychology and the Occult (a collection of transcripts from lectures he gave to the scientific community), Jung relates the mental states, anxieties, and complexes of some believers as well as some "practitioners". In Psychology and Alchemy he goes into more of the depth and history of the symbols and vocabulary of medieval alchemy because he found, to his surprise, that those metaphors were a bridge to some of the imagery and dreams conjured by many of his patients, all of whom were devout Christians and who had no contact whatever with the imagery of alchemy. So how did it get in so many people's dreams? Now, he's no one's fool, and he knew the power of suggestion as well as the power of delusion. He knew that the language in which the medieval alchemists wrote was an absurd and abstracted code in which they were able to talk to each other and avoid persecution. "The drop of dew", for instance, was code for the use of clear reason, an heretical notion in medieval Europe! And think about how effective an image it is: When one struggles under a lack of understanding, when it clicks there's a sense of relief not unlike a drink of clean water. It's a poetic image in figurative language, and may well be too florid for some, but it's a dialect. That's the essence of symbolic or poetic language: it communicates a feeling as well as a subject.

"Alchemy" these days is a worthless pretension compared to what it was then. It was the daring and blasphemies of medieval alchemy that eventually gave rise to the Enlightenment. Ironically, it's more likely these days than then that someone will literally go out and collect dew in the moonlight like a chump, taking the "alchemical recipe" literally instead of doing what the code actually meant and meeting with heretical friends in remote fields at night to discuss the unlikeliness of God and the heinous errors of the church, which they obviously couldn't do in public. They were philosophers as much as they were the early chemists and metalurgists, and their use of elemental imagery was a surprisingly helpful vocabulary for Jung in his investigation of the gradually discernible subconscious (which itself is a metaphor for the biological similarities in the inscrutable operation of the human cortex, not some sub-basement of spiritual reality). When a thing like the subconscious isn't understood, but some of its results can be seen, it has to be called something if it's to be talked about at all.

"Occult" only means "hidden." It has been contorted by the false into a branch of stupidity, whereas at first alchemy was "the transformation of one state into another" .. ignorance into knowledge, belief into free thinking by the power of mental practice (before anatomy was as well understood as now): the esoteric and largely secret explorations of material and philosophical reality outside the purview of a murderous church. It was not a metaphysical pile, despite how it reads. It was encryption for discussion about subjects we take for granted now, and can speak about openly without fear of beheading, burning, or torture.

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2114
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:03 pm 
 

o_O
In the 'last band shirt' thread ChaosGoatKills wrote:
Computer games can be powerful guardians of ancient wisdom, especially RPGs. The key is to not be tempted to allow them to replace the reality of life.

Made me chagrined I ever got involved here. My own fault, obviously, but wtf ..

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Terri23
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2096
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:03 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm, I just wanna say to you, thanks for posting here. You make lurking here worthwhile.
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2114
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:21 pm 
 

seriously? :lol: You're welcome!

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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:00 am 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
drterror666 wrote:
Gods are false, your connection to the universe is not.

Actually, your connection to the universe is seriously dubious and most likely non-existant. Many would say "there's nothing PERHAPS about it". In the end, you likely only have belief to support an animistic claim.


I take it you're one of these people who believes we are human grow bags? You're born, you go to school, you get a job, you die, the end?

Quote:
As far as manipulating the energies of the universe, that's a semantic black hole. Which energies and by which method of operation? Specify the mechanics of your process. Operating the material stuff of the universe like electricity or combustion engines is, in a way, operating its energies, of course, but learning to harness the strange behaviors of physics does not by extension mean that magic or something like telekinetics have any basis in anything but metaphor (or illusion).


I'm not talking about energies that are explainable by physics, although particle physics is getting interesting these days. There is an energy in the universe that connects us all. I would argue that this energy goes beyond our universe. Still, I'm not going to get into my beliefs too much, because you're obviously a traditionalist who believes in science and nothing more.

Quote:
Metaphor and symbol only have interpretive effects, not material ones, which is why I recommended some of the books I mentioned. They take a skeptic's view of the subject, not a believer's. In his Psychology and the Occult (a collection of transcripts from lectures he gave to the scientific community), Jung relates the mental states, anxieties, and complexes of some believers as well as some "practitioners". In Psychology and Alchemy he goes into more of the depth and history of the symbols and vocabulary of medieval alchemy because he found, to his surprise, that those metaphors were a bridge to some of the imagery and dreams conjured by many of his patients, all of whom were devout Christians and who had no contact whatever with the imagery of alchemy. So how did it get in so many people's dreams? Now, he's no one's fool, and he knew the power of suggestion as well as the power of delusion. He knew that the language in which the medieval alchemists wrote was an absurd and abstracted code in which they were able to talk to each other and avoid persecution. "The drop of dew", for instance, was code for the use of clear reason, an heretical notion in medieval Europe! And think about how effective an image it is: When one struggles under a lack of understanding, when it clicks there's a sense of relief not unlike a drink of clean water. It's a poetic image in figurative language, and may well be too florid for some, but it's a dialect. That's the essence of symbolic or poetic language: it communicates a feeling as well as a subject.


But, I'm not into all this coded, esoteric bullshit that so-called occultists like to use. In fact, it pisses me right off! Which, is why I have boiled my ideas and theories down to the basics. I'm not into tricking people with pseudo-psychological tactics. I base this stuff on what I have SEEN and what I have EXPERIENCED. Of course, you can apply all the Jungian theory you want and that is your right. People like you and me will never see eye to eye, but it makes for great arguments, no?

Quote:
"Alchemy" these days is a worthless pretension compared to what it was then. It was the daring and blasphemies of medieval alchemy that eventually gave rise to the Enlightenment. Ironically, it's more likely these days than then that someone will literally go out and collect dew in the moonlight like a chump, taking the "alchemical recipe" literally instead of doing what the code actually meant and meeting with heretical friends in remote fields at night to discuss the unlikeliness of God and the heinous errors of the church, which they obviously couldn't do in public. They were philosophers as much as they were the early chemists and metalurgists, and their use of elemental imagery was a surprisingly helpful vocabulary for Jung in his investigation of the gradually discernible subconscious (which itself is a metaphor for the biological similarities in the inscrutable operation of the human cortex, not some sub-basement of spiritual reality). When a thing like the subconscious isn't understood, but some of its results can be seen, it has to be called something if it's to be talked about at all.


Honestly, not sure why you are bringing up Alchemy, although what you say is interesting. This stuff is for religious nutters who should get out more.

Quote:
"Occult" only means "hidden." It has been contorted by the false into a branch of stupidity, whereas at first alchemy was "the transformation of one state into another" .. ignorance into knowledge, belief into free thinking by the power of mental practice (before anatomy was as well understood as now): the esoteric and largely secret explorations of material and philosophical reality outside the purview of a murderous church. It was not a metaphysical pile, despite how it reads. It was encryption for discussion about subjects we take for granted now, and can speak about openly without fear of beheading, burning, or torture.


I hate the term 'occult' (as I may have already said) and wish it would stop being used. Still, it sounds sexy and makes people feel kinda oogy! Anyway, thanks to 'occultists' and religious idiots, knowledge that our tribal ancestors used every day has been pushed into the background. This information is free and will never go away, no matter how hard they try to push it out of existence.

Oh, and Grave_Wyrm, as you're into all things Jung, you'll know all about the collective conciousness and all its associated weirdness. Now, I can buy into that!

Hope all this isn't scaring you off, ChaosGoatKills.

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drterror666
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:07 am 
 

FearTheNome wrote:
drterror666 wrote:
As I said before, anything you want is within your grasp as long as you have the strength of belief.


Many things in my life have failed to happen when I really, truly believed that they would. Conversely, many things have happened to me that I did not expect. This claim falls apart under even the most rudimentary analysis.

Unless you're saying that if I really believed then I would have invoked one of these ludicrous occult methods. But if that's true and those things work, then why do they all read like a laundry list of ways to fool yourself into thinking some magic happened? Every occult thing I've ever read has either been obvious nonsense or methods that we know from psychology are just ways to invoke cognitive biases..


There are different levels of belief. True belief, and the mechanics that really get those universal cogs moving, is immersive belief. You can't just really believe that things are going to happen and they don't, because they won't. You have to meditate and step into your beliefs. Believe that it's already happened and you're living it.

Of course, there's no scientific explanation for this stuff, but I can't help that.

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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:15 am 
 

I tried golden dawn for a few years, got pretty good at it, or at least a regular adept who'd gone up a buncha grades you know. Then I realized it was just dudes looking for religion but hoping to add a Harry Potter element to the whole thing. Went back to christianity, super glad I did; far more rewarding, far more beautiful. Strangely enough, I have a few straight out atheists, many of whom are on MA for making me get more serious about my religion. Feels good man, I recommend it to everyone, it's the most important thing in my world by a mile and the best thing in my world for that matter. You could do a million LBRP's and they're worth maybe 0.01 salvations :)

(edited for spelling mistakes, must be more tired than I thought..)
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drterror666
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:45 am 
 

If Christianity makes you feel great, then all power to you. As you can probably tell by my previous posts, I'm not into the occult and have serious problems with it. That aside, I also feel great, but I follow no god, goddess or whatever. I would argue that everything you need is already inside, but I know better than to get into an arguement with someone who's religious. At the end of the day, we all believe what we believe.

The Golden Dawn made you turn to Christianity. That's funny!

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:05 am 
 

This thread reminds me of Doctor Faustus by Christopher Marlowe,

The three scholars cautiously enter Faustus's room after he is dragged to hell and are horrified to see his limbs strewn about. They shudder in fear as they remember how he screamed for mercy and help at midnight. They agree, however, to give his remains a proper burial, although his soul was decidedly unholy. The chorus enters and laments Faustus's wayward soul and hellish fall. They also warn the audience to take heed from Faustus's lesson and only wonder at unlawful things and never practice anything that heaven forbids

:-D

“I charge thee wait upon me whilst I live to do whatever Faustus shall command, Be it to make the moon drop from her sphere or the ocean to overwhelm the world”
Faustus
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Last edited by mindshadow on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:07 am 
 

well, I was originally a christian. Pattern went bought up christian- raging teen atheist - christian/golden dawn- golden dawn- christian. Long story. Been settled for a few years now. Big part of growing up's the crisis of faith and all that.

drterror666 wrote:
I know better than to get into an arguement with someone who's religious.


of course. It's all about faith! If there's no epiphany of faith, there's no belief. And that's one reason among many as to why arguing it is so pointless. Discussing it however can be real informative, can clear up a lot of misconceptions and helps us all to get along better :)
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FearTheNome
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:44 am 
 

drterror666 wrote:
There are different levels of belief. True belief, and the mechanics that really get those universal cogs moving, is immersive belief. You can't just really believe that things are going to happen and they don't, because they won't. You have to meditate and step into your beliefs. Believe that it's already happened and you're living it.

Of course, there's no scientific explanation for this stuff, but I can't help that.


Slippery. If it didn't happen, then it must be that I didn't "truly" believe it.

If you only count hits and ignore all the misses, then of course it looks like magic...

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drterror666
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:37 am 
 

FearTheNome wrote:
drterror666 wrote:
There are different levels of belief. True belief, and the mechanics that really get those universal cogs moving, is immersive belief. You can't just really believe that things are going to happen and they don't, because they won't. You have to meditate and step into your beliefs. Believe that it's already happened and you're living it.

Of course, there's no scientific explanation for this stuff, but I can't help that.


Slippery. If it didn't happen, then it must be that I didn't "truly" believe it.

If you only count hits and ignore all the misses, then of course it looks like magic...


That's OK, I see where you're going with that. I only asked if you truly immersed yourself in what you wanted out of life? There is no place for negativity, but then I don't know you and you could be a positive person. The fact is that if you meditate and visualise that you already living the life you want or holding something you would like, it WILL happen. There are many people out there who can testify to this fact.

Doesn't look like any of them are on this forum, though! :D

Oh, and I like that you say that this 'looks like magic'. That's exactly where I'm going with this. I don't believe in magic (or 'magick' if you want to feel sexy), only in what we can already do.

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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:46 pm 
 

drterror666 wrote:
People like you and me will never see eye to eye, but it makes for great arguments, no?

Not particularly.

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drterror666
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:05 am 
 

Well, that's me told, I suppose. If that's how you want to be, you can keep your myopic, self-opinionated remarks to yourself.

Still, I expect that the guy who started this thread is well scared off now, so job done to you.

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Filosofuck
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Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:19 am
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:35 am 
 

caspian wrote:
helps us all to get along better :)

There's definitely no need for that.
drterror666 wrote:
Well, that's me told, I suppose. If that's how you want to be, you can keep your myopic, self-opinionated remarks to yourself.

Still, I expect that the guy who started this thread is well scared off now, so job done to you.

It's not a good thread anyway.

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Apteronotus
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Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 am
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:34 pm 
 

drterror666 wrote:
Well, that's me told, I suppose. If that's how you want to be, you can keep your myopic, self-opinionated remarks to yourself.

Still, I expect that the guy who started this thread is well scared off now, so job done to you.


I hope this doesn't come across as flippant, but from your own comments it would seem that you are reacting with negativity and that if you truly wanted people in the thread to agree with you and immersed yourself in that desire that it would happen. If you truly believed that everyone would accept your views or that they were correct, couldn't you just meditate that desire into reality?

Even when you say you mean this internally, isn't your assessment of Grave_Wyrm as myopic and self-opinionated an internal process? It sounds like there is a huge difference between the idea of thinking happy therefore being happy versus what you are saying. I believe only in the realm of science. Do I misunderstand you?
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:34 pm 
 

drterror666 wrote:
Well, that's me told, I suppose.

Well, you have horrid manners. And my hangover got impatient. I hate those cut and paste flows of spilled semantic ball bearings.

drterror666 wrote:
you can keep your myopic, self-opinionated remarks to yourself.

I agree with you there.

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MazeofTorment
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:37 pm 
 

The one book on the Occult that I've read is Qabalah, Qliphoth, and Goetic Magic by Thomas Karlsson and its awesome. More or less a broad overview of Qabalah and the "dark" or "other" side of Western Esotericism. I found it to be interesting and very helpful in gaining an understanding about Occult. While it focuses on the Other side, all the information is presented bias free and in an academic manner. Clear and concise writing as well, very enjoyable read.

Otherwise, I've had Three Books of Occult Philosophy by Henry Cornelius Agrippa on my to-read list for the last several months now, which may also be of help to you. Supposedly a very lengthy, academic, comprehensive look into the Occult and widely known/respected.
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HerrDerQual
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:14 pm 
 

Well, this thread is going south real quick.

But the topic is interesting, to say the least. A little mystery in life doesn't hurt...
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FearTheNome
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:53 pm 
 

Life has plenty of real mysteries already. There's no need to make up fake ones.

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drterror666
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Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 69
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:09 am 
 

Apteronotus wrote:
drterror666 wrote:
Well, that's me told, I suppose. If that's how you want to be, you can keep your myopic, self-opinionated remarks to yourself.

Still, I expect that the guy who started this thread is well scared off now, so job done to you.


I hope this doesn't come across as flippant, but from your own comments it would seem that you are reacting with negativity and that if you truly wanted people in the thread to agree with you and immersed yourself in that desire that it would happen. If you truly believed that everyone would accept your views or that they were correct, couldn't you just meditate that desire into reality?


Sorry, I was quite taken aback by Grave_Wyrm's comments. I do not believe I have the answer; all my beliefs stem from all the research I've done over 30+ years and my own experiences. It would be impossible to meditate my desire for everyone to follow my way and I would never even think of doing that. Grave-Wyrm is coming from a scientific psychological angle and I can respect that. I am interested in what other people have to say, especially if it leads to a good argument. I have to concede that sometimes people don't want to argue and others have very closed minds.

I just came onto this thread to share my theories about why I feel the Occult is romantic nonsense.

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Acidgobblin
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:12 am 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
drterror666 wrote:
Well, that's me told, I suppose.

Well, you have horrid manners. And my hangover got impatient. I hate those cut and paste flows of spilled semantic ball bearings.

:roll:
I like how you criticise his 'horrid manners' immediately after a snappy, dismissive one liner and filling this entire thread with sarcastic garbage. Playing the smart-sceptic card is old hat, buddy. Try coming up with something original...
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