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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:22 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
Well, the episode, in my eyes, clearly portrays the Mormons as creepy weirdos. I can't understand how anyone could construe that as a positive portrayal of the religion... The fake happiness, plastic family life, creepy niceness to everybody around, not to mention the fact that they walk a fine line between showing the true beliefs of the LDS and overblown comedy. If you indeed see all that as a favourable view of the Mormon faith, their obviously fake cheerfulness, and almost drugged happiness of the family life, I don't know how to respond. Maybe we just have very different definitions of irony and sarcasm.

Further, they didn't really touch on the mentioned shady politics, culty missionaries and corruption of the scientologists, either, when they had the famous episode on them. Actually, they did pretty much the same thing as here, and told what the faithful actually believe, except that they made Tom Cruise refuse to come out of the closet for some reason... And that has never been seen as a pro-scientology thing by anyone.

Their point, I believe, is equal to certain comedians' opinions on GW Bush: the source material is so golden that you just can't hate the object, no matter how repulsive it is in real life. But if that made you feel better about Mormons and maybe want to join their ranks, feel free.

Now you are trolling or intentionally misconstruing the facts. The episode made their happiness look fake from the perspective of the main cast with the reveal being that the family really was happy and nice and that mormonism was the source of that. The joke was that it was so hard for the main cast to fathom that, being that they are largely selfish and mean spirited. It was explained at the ep without any ambiguity both by the events which occurred and one of the characters talking directly to the camera. They white washed mormonism and continue to do so. They did give scientology a pass in the first ep, but in the ep about chef they cut a bit closer to the truth. So, the south park guys have a pattern of doing exactly what I said they did. How does this prove me wrong rather than more right? Why can't you admit that I'm right sometimes?
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Grave_Wyrm
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:46 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
You shouldn't respect their religiosity.

Neither should I disrespect it, if the person's done nothing to earn it.

John_Sunlight wrote:
The position that their religion is ok if it makes them act nice is abiding by the theist logic that without the religion they wouldn't be nice and its interrelated conclusion that religion is the basis of ethics and morality and atheism must be nihilistic. None of these things are true and there is no reason to accept the logic on which these things are based, as it isn't correct either.

Agreed. Fortunately those lines of logic are irrelevant. The respect I give them is for them as people, and their religiosity is secondary .. in fact, almost trivial, and most often overrated. Being automatically and unduly disrespectful (aka: belligerently prejudiced) is anti-social behavior and basically shows curious judgement. My respect for people is based more on their behavior than their point of view, as my own behavior should speak more loudly for me than my non-religiosity. If religious assholes had their religiosity taken away, would they be nicer people? Unclear.

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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:53 pm 
 

hahaha .. also, to the OP, religion really started working against itself when it started regulating sex. Yeesh. Sexual frustration will make anyone hatefully resentful. :lol:

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cultofkraken
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:57 am 
 

Napero wrote:
Link or didn't happen.


http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/Shows/SouthPark?videoPackage=93490

http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/Shows/SouthPark?videoPackage=93491

Don't even know if it'll work for you as its Canadian.
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MetalSupremacy
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:45 am
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 10:16 am 
 

I'm going to throw in my two cents (or pennies, since I'm a Brit) as a Buddhist. I'll quickly say first off that I won't be going into what it means for me to be a Buddhist here, or to explain Buddhist philosophy, unless someone specifically asks me to do so.

It's nice to see from a lot of the comments here that for the most part this discussion has been amicable and pleasant, and that most of us are able to have a reasonable and civilised debate no matter our differences of opinion and belief. :)

It's clear to me what one of the biggest real problems is, and it's something far more insidious than simply religion itself as either an institution, a belief system or a philosophy. Of course, if we're talking about a belief system that is clearly both violent and irrational by nature, that's a different matter. At their cores, Judaism, Christianity and Islam should primarily be about respecting one's own life and the lives of all others: "love thy neighbour as thyself", etc, an ideal which I would say is highly admirable. As we all know, there are nevertheless indeed many problems caused by some people's interpretation of religion through the ages to the present day. In terms of monotheistic religions in particular, sometimes the various rules and often dogmatic ideas which appear in those belief systems haven't made it any easier either - that much is true.

However, one just has to look at the decent and nice people on here of monotheistic faith, for example, to see that being a monotheist doesn't require one to be irrational. Or intolerant. Or violent. Or bigoted. Those are all things which come from within an individual's own life. Now, that may seem to be a pretty obvious statement, but how often do most people actually think about what it means?

As for the case of fundamentalists who hijack religion for their own ends, then again, I would argue that the selfishness, the cruelty, the irrationality, the hate and the fear which they display are things which were already inherent within their lives - they simply used religion to justify their actions. This is something which is beginning to be recognised these days, but not strongly enough, and I believe it is an incredibly crucial point.

So, here's the zinger:

It's very easy to blame other people for one's own misfortunes. This also applies to blaming anything outside of oneself for one's own misery or suffering…including blaming belief systems such as religions, amongst other things, for peoples' misfortunes in general. On the one hand, in some (or even many) cases this may indeed be justified, in places where those religions have been used to abuse and harm people just for the sake of satisfying some self-centred person's needs, and there is no question that religion has, can and will continue be used incorrectly by corrupt people to force their will on others, until the more rational, wise and decent members of the religion in question make a stand against corruption and fundamentalism within their ranks, as it were.

On the other hand, I feel that to completely blame religion for society's current day problems is not only wrong but a total absurdity...why? Quite simply, it's because just blaming a belief system is an easy escape, a cop-out, as it means you're blaming something outside of humanity for humanity's problems, rather than looking within human nature. Additionally, many religions often claim to exist outside of humanity when talking of a god or of gods, which causes plenty of problems related to personal responsibility (or in this case, its lack thereof) by itself, but that's a separate, if interrelated, issue.

Truthfully, I strongly believe that the biggest cause of human suffering isn't specifically or only to do with religion, nor with anything external to individual people. It is, I would say, ABSOLUTELY to do with each person's perception of the world, humanity, and themselves. My belief is that people both create and influence their environments with their thoughts, words and actions. So naturally, if they use religion to persecute, kill, hurt or abuse others, then they've used a belief system to cause suffering. If they instead use religion for the sake of positive self-improvement and to help them better respect their own lives and the lives of all others, then they've used their beliefs to overcome or transform suffering. In all cases, all the different people involved must be held accountable for what they do as individuals. It's never black and white, and it really comes down to each person's choices.

It's way more complex than just that, since there are also strange religions with some fundamentally fanatical core elements (such as cults), and it's hard to see how anyone could make much anything good or rational out of those kinds of ideas. But the point still stands. If every person who self-identified as religious chose to live their lives according to the positive, wise, and compassionate aspects of their teachings as opposed to the harmful, arrogant and callous ones, would there still be modern day conflicts between people of differing faiths? Of course there are, and this, again, is because a lot of people love to blame things outside of themselves when anything goes wrong or doesn't work out for them, and so they use religion as an excuse to act like twats, rather than using it in the manner it should always be used - to create better lives for all people. And what I personally believe people need to do in order to change this is primarily to take responsibility for their own lives, and to stop casting blame on others for their own sufferings.

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:55 pm 
 

MetalSupremacy wrote:
And what I personally believe people need to do in order to change this is primarily to take responsibility for their own lives, and to stop casting blame on others for their own sufferings.


Maybe the problem has been when state and church have acted as one throughout history. Native Americans, Aborigines and other first nation tribes only knew western religion from a conquered prospective, do you think they realized there's a difference between how people have acted towards them and a higher teaching that's somehow been forgotten/ignored?

Can't see a society any time soon where everyone's enlightened and is cordial toward those with different beliefs. zen teaching has been around over two thousand five hundred years but still people (especially in positions of prominence) are as machiavellian as ever.

Maybe one day though man will get his act together, though I fear we'll all be checking the time on each others watches in surprise as we slowly elongate towards a "black hole" before that happens.
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Doomed Cowboy
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:36 pm 
 

I'll throw in my view.

For a little background, I am *gasp* a Christian. In many ways though, I do not agree with 'the Church', or a lot of what you might see from the hypocritical people who consider themselves Christian. Personally, I focus on the forgiving side of Christianity, and the focus on loving your neighbor. The forgiving side is the part I think the majority of people don't pay attention to. They call out all the "sinners", who drink, kill, hate, etc. But they aren't willing to forgive. The best, nicest, and most trustworthy religious people I have met have always either been decently sinful, or previously been quite sinful. One of them murdered his own wife, but he was the most calm and sensitive man I have ever met. He repented commonly, said his apologies, and asked for forgiveness. Yet he was also quite forgiving, and quite loving. (How many people can say they've hugged a murderer and that they felt safe doing it? Few besides me.)

Now, in saying all this, I think religion started working against it self when it became organized past a community level. I think it should focus on the family/friend level, and community at the absolute largest. When the church gained enough power that you had the same religious leaders making choices for multiple communities, things went to shit. I also think the whole idealism of the priest, or a certain person having a closer relationship with whatever deity one believes in is quite stupid. Were all the same, wretched, worthless animals. None are better, none are worse. The belief otherwise is the only reason for the stupidity we see today.
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CF_Mono
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:03 pm 
 

I'm surprised this thread took off as well as it did (even if it did get a bit thorny in the middle.) A lot of these ideas seem larger than me at the moment and I will have to take time to think about them. The South Park discussion was great too. In the end I'm going to have to stick by my word though, and say that even though welfare states and social safety nets are necessary, I still think I've seen enough personal examples in my life to not believe in a massive redistribution of wealth. I've seen enough instances first hand of people taking advantage of these benefits and/or wasting precious opportunity. Moral and fiscal responsibility is something that needs redress by both the very poor and very wealthy. And with regards to that I think Grave_Wyrm hit it on the head, there would be less opposition to taxes if tax money was being spent properly and there was less waste in government.

I also have to give credit to Erosion_of_Humanity for the quote, I think he really understands where I'm coming from. I'm just 19, and I'm starting to see a lot of controversy around religion which I just wasn't exposed to in high school. The fact that Christians are human beings and are just as moral or immoral as non-Christians is something I've had to come to terms with lately. That is ultimately what has obliterated my faith entirely in organized religion (although that really began a while ago)... but not entirely for creationism. See, I think a lot of atheists don't understand that most creationists don't have a problem with believing in say, Abiogenesis and God at the same time... The two aren't exactly contradictory, unless said God is the God of any organized or conceived religion on earth. There is no rational reason to believe in a creator, nor is there any real reason not to, as unlikely as it actually may be. But Erosion's quote explains why there is a perfectly rational reason not to be a Christian.

Maybe I'm still being naive. But I hope that didn't leave anyone in the dark =S
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:24 pm 
 

That there is no rational reason to believe is precisely the reason not to believe.
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CF_Mono
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:28 pm 
 

But believing in a creator doesn't have the profound impact on your life like believing in principles set forth by a religion does. So there is still no reason not to, or at least, no reason to rule out the possibility at any rate.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:10 am 
 

We don't know the variables when it comes to if a creator or even creators exist.
To be honest if you decide atheism makes the most sense for you are choosing to believe in something. Yeah sure atheism means you don't believe in something, but religion or creators whatever is not exactly the same as choosing to not believe a story your neighbour told about how you lost your wallet.

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Gypaetus
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Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:03 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:58 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
We don't know the variables when it comes to if a creator or even creators exist.
To be honest if you decide atheism makes the most sense for you are choosing to believe in something. Yeah sure atheism means you don't believe in something, but religion or creators whatever is not exactly the same as choosing to not believe a story your neighbour told about how you lost your wallet.


I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. How can the absence of belief = believing in something?

Anyway, there's been a lot of good discussion here, but to answer the OP's question directly: I'd make the argument that religion began working against itself when religious organisations wouldn't 'get with the times' and update some of their more.. let's say 'dated' theories in light of scientific discoveries and increased education, especially in the last 100 or so years (eg: opposition to evolution, belief the Earth is 6000 years old etc). In other words: education is ruining religion's credibility, and the more we discover about the world the more the concept of a God or Creator gets pushed to the sidelines.

I'm certain that in this day and age, there are more people that identify as being athiests or of having no religion than what there have been at any point in history. I'm also certain that this is going to increase over time. It seems that instead of using a bit of logic and common sense knowing what we now know about the world (and maybe applying that to their religion), religious institutions meet this opposition to their beliefs by becoming more dogmatic. This just furthers negative stereotypes and increases opposition to religion to the point that any good that religion may have done in the past is largely considered to be history and nothing more.

To go on an atheistic rant for a bit; 100 years ago we thought the universe consisted of only the Milky Way, and now we know that this is one of billions of galaxies. I'm not going to even attempt to decipher what on earth so-called 'creationist' Christians are thinking when they say with utter seriousness that the Earth is 6000 years old. For the more open-minded, 'moderate' Christians however, I can't help but wonder how much further the concept of a 'creator' or God can be pushed back before their own beliefs would be shaken? Did God create the Big Bang? If so, then how do you reconcile that with how God was also meant to have created the heavens and the Earth in 7 days? Is this part of the bible to be disregarded? If so, then why not the rest? Also, if God did create the Big Bang, and we were able to make a space telescope that could actually observe the Big Bang forming, would we also observe God? If we did, then what created God? (Please note that these questions could be applied to any religion - I'm using Christianity as an example here because it is the religion that I am by far the most familiar with.) I don't think any of these questions can be answered without a: falling onto the crutch of 'faith' in some way or b: without casting doubt on the existence of a creator, or God.

Edit: I can't into grammar, it seems.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:55 pm 
 

Not that I'm an expert on ancient religions or anything, but I'd be inclined to think that religion likely started to work against itself from almost day one. The Abrahamic religions already contain a huge amount of examples where the authors of the original holy texts clearly exaggerated, misconstrued facts or outright lied in order to make points about things or scare/trick people into behaving a certain way and I seriously doubt that these men were the inventors of such manipulation. Ancient humanity was probably chock full of the third guy to hear about Early Pagan Deity #256 telling his neighbors some story about how that god would be upset with them if they behaved a certain way, or reward them for doing something else. It's a natural symptom of anthropomorphizing natural phenomena one doesn't have any other explanation for and inevitably leads to dogmatism, misappropriation, deceit, corruption, persecution, witch hunts, crusades, holy jihads, etc.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:35 pm 
 

ITT: religious people say atheism requires faith too. Get bent.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:45 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
ITT: religious people say atheism requires faith too. Get bent.

See, we can agree? Not that hard, now is it?
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:28 pm 
 

To answer the OP, i can't say when or if the whole concept of religion started defeating itself. But Christianity certainly did when the Romans tried and unfortunately succeeded, to force it over Europe. Christianity makes sense only in its original context: that is, as the fulfilment of Old Testament (Hebrew) prophecy. It was never intended to become catholic, i.e., universal to the inclusion of other races.

It says in Revelations that the returning Messiah will save 144,000 chosen people - this number represents 12,000 of each tribe of Israel. To which tribe of Israel do the French, Swedes, Russians and so on belong? None of course! (I could say the same for sub-Saharan Africans, East Asians and Amerindians as well).

That is why global religions (Islam to a lesser extent) are a bad idea that get corrupted and torn apart by sectarian infighting. Those outside the original faith community can't, and weren't meant to, properly buy in to what someone else's religion is selling. It's always wrong to invade other nations and force them to adopt your beliefs. I am fairly confident that few if any of modern times' abuses of religion would be happening; if only each ethnic group had been allowed to naturally maintain faiths and values of their own origins.

As a digression to the ideas of most posts here though, if i must put up with preaching i'd rather get it from a religious person than an atheist. At least they believe that something good will come of it - like they'll get to heaven for spreading the gospel. What's an atheist's reward fir destroying someone else's faith in spiritual existence? The satisfaction of being right? Why bother! It won't do you much good when you're rotting in a box.

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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:43 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
As a digression to the ideas of most posts here though, if i must put up with preaching i'd rather get it from a religious person than an atheist. At least they believe that something good will come of it - like they'll get to heaven for spreading the gospel. What's an atheist's reward fir destroying someone else's faith in spiritual existence? The satisfaction of being right? Why bother! It won't do you much good when you're rotting in a box.


o_O

Really? Just... really? Both of your examples imply that neither religious people or atheists mind doing something that often pisses people off, if it will benefit them in some way (no arguments there, lots of people are inherently selfish). However, according to you, it's somehow more acceptable for someone to do that if the benefit to that person is related to religion in some way, but is a shitty thing to do if it isn't?

Hell, I could use that logic and say that "murder is bad, but if I must be murdered I'd rather get it from a religious person than an atheist. At least they believe that something good will come of it - like they'll get to heaven. What's an atheist's reward? The satisfaction of bashing someone's head in!"
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deadhead
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:31 am 
 

Faith* is what distinguishes man from the beast
But false faith turns man into beast

*use your favorite religion (atheism is religion too)
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wrathchild_88
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:11 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
As a digression to the ideas of most posts here though, if i must put up with preaching i'd rather get it from a religious person than an atheist. At least they believe that something good will come of it - like they'll get to heaven for spreading the gospel. What's an atheist's reward fir destroying someone else's faith in spiritual existence? The satisfaction of being right? Why bother! It won't do you much good when you're rotting in a box.

I agree with Gyptaeus and would also like to add that just because atheists don't believe in a deity, doesn't mean they can't have their own set of spiritual beliefs that may well be very similar to religious peoples ideas. The way I see it though, the spiritual notions people may have of an afterlife/souls/creation etc. exist for the same reasons that religions came about, which is it's just stuff we don't understand at this point - such as what happens when we die, if we have a soul, or more importantly why the universe we live in has the set of laws that it does. Science has explained quite a lot of ideas/phenomena that people didn't understand when religions were formed and I think it will continue that way to an extent. We may never know if people have a soul or what happens to it when you die, but you can still have your own ideas about what happens and how things work and currently unexplainable possibilities.

And "the satisfaction of being right? Why bother!" What the hell are you talking about? I guess there's some satisfaction in being able to explain to explain things, but the whole point of science and teaching other people is so that we can progress as a species in quality of life and understanding of the universe, not just selfishly being a dick your whole life then rotting away. And I don't think there's anything wrong with just rotting away, it gives nutrition to other living things and is good for the ecosystem. The cycle of life, man. Also, I would like to ask what the point of getting to heaven is. I mean no-one on this plane of existence has noticed the goings-on in 'heaven', so what's the point of it? I think for the majority of people, they would try and act 'good' whether there was an incentive in the afterlife of not. I don't know why you would lead a possibly crappy lifestyle when you know you would experience it to maybe have a decent afterlife if such a things exists. Unfortunately there are too many incentives to be a dick in the current socio-economic system, but that's another conversation...
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:22 am 
 

deadhead wrote:
atheism is religion too


It is, absolutely!*

* - If your definition of either atheism or religion (or both!) is completely and utterly incorrect.
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deadhead
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:32 am 
 

Want you or not, but atheism is religion, because there's still no evidence of absence of god.
No matter do you some rituals or just whining mantras "there's no god".

And until you will be 100% sure (you can't be sure, because it's only your very narrow and subjective feeling) that there's is no god, atheism will be religion
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:50 am 
 

But it's not. The only thing atheism is is the rejection of belief in the excistence of deities because we don't see any evidence for it. It's the rejection of religion.
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TheOldOne
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:51 am 
 

deadhead wrote:
Want you or not, but atheism is religion, because there's still no evidence of absence of god.
No matter do you some rituals or just whining mantras "there's no god".

And until you will be 100% sure (you can't be sure, because it's only your very narrow and subjective feeling) that there's is no god, atheism will be religion


Atheism is simply a lack of belief in theism. An atheist doesn't believe in theism by definition, but that doesn't necessarily mean they believe with 100% certainty that theism is not true. Those who believe with certainty that there is no theistic god are known as gnostic atheists, as opposed to the more common agnostic atheists, who simply don't believe that theism is true, but aren't absolutely sure that it isn't.

The degrees of atheism are only beliefs, there is no religious doctrine.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:57 am 
 

deadhead wrote:
Want you or not, but atheism is religion, because there's still no evidence of absence of god.
No matter do you some rituals or just whining mantras "there's no god".

And until you will be 100% sure (you can't be sure, because it's only your very narrow and subjective feeling) that there's is no god, atheism will be religion

Go fuck yourself, Jesus.

This is the first and worst fallacy of the religious people, and is based on countering a very flimsy strawman by the "well, you're just as st00pid, neener-neener!" argument.

Look, you have all the right in the world to believe in your favourite fairytale, but until you come up with an argument you didn't hear in Sunday school or on a creationist video on YouTube, your words are just irritants and not worth a truckload of dead rats in a tampon factory. And definitely not worth a serious reply.
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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:33 am 
 

deadhead wrote:
Want you or not, but atheism is religion, because there's still no evidence of absence of god.
No matter do you some rituals or just whining mantras "there's no god".

And until you will be 100% sure (you can't be sure, because it's only your very narrow and subjective feeling) that there's is no god, atheism will be religion


What you are saying makes absolutely no sense. I hope that there's some kind of language barrier here for your sake - I don't think you are aware of how utterly stupid you sound.

That said, I have to know what rituals you think atheists do :lol:

TheOldOne wrote:
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in theism. An atheist doesn't believe in theism by definition, but that doesn't necessarily mean they believe with 100% certainty that theism is not true. Those who believe with certainty that there is no theistic god are known as gnostic atheists, as opposed to the more common agnostic atheists, who simply don't believe that theism is true, but aren't absolutely sure that it isn't.

The degrees of atheism are only beliefs, there is no religious doctrine.


Pretty much. I'd hazard a guess that most atheists are agnostic because there are still questions that *could* (though the chances of this happening are, in my opinion, pretty much nonexistent) be answered by the existence of some kind of creator. That said, as far as atheists are concerned there is no non-faith based evidence for the existence of a God. The burden of proof is on those that believe God exists, not on people who don't believe he exists, and sadly, it seems that a lot of religious people don't understand this. Atheists don't need to prove that God doesn't exist as to justify their lack of belief. Hint hint, Deadhead, this EQUALS not having a religion.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:36 pm 
 

Gypaetus wrote:
I have to know what rituals you think atheists do :lol:

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JT Rager
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:55 pm 
 

Most atheists are agnostic atheists. The above posts are true, Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. If you believe in God, you're a theist. If you're not a theist, you're a non-theist, more commonly known as an atheist. This is the definition most atheists identify with, so to use another definition is dishonest.

The religious try to brand atheists as "100% certain that there is no god" so they can set up an easy strawman to attack. Furthermore the religious try to say that atheism is just another religion. They state this despite the fact that atheism has no rituals or overarching dogmas or anything. The only thing that atheists have in common is one thing: they don't believe that a god exists. That is a single aspect of a person of which everything else about them is up for grabs.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:09 pm 
 

Gypaetus wrote:

Hell, I could use that logic and say that "murder is bad, but if I must be murdered I'd rather get it from a religious person than an atheist. At least they believe that something good will come of it - like they'll get to heaven. What's an atheist's reward? The satisfaction of bashing someone's head in!"


No, that comparison is absurd. Sure i don't like people trying to convert me to their faith or anti-faith. But that doesn't mean that spreading one's beliefs uninvited is an inherently bad thing to do, in itself. Murder is.

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Napero
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:59 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
As a digression to the ideas of most posts here though, if i must put up with preaching i'd rather get it from a religious person than an atheist. At least they believe that something good will come of it - like they'll get to heaven for spreading the gospel. What's an atheist's reward fir destroying someone else's faith in spiritual existence? The satisfaction of being right? Why bother! It won't do you much good when you're rotting in a box.

How about dispelling myths that have an extremely destructive implications to everybody, not just the religious ones, when applied to common decision-making, also known as "politics"? Or, perhaps, trying to stop systematic myth-based abuse of children? Or trying to rid the world of self-righteous and harmful organizations and myths that cause actual death and destruction through their indoctrination and dogma?

I don't care too much for any kind of preaching of atheism, but I sure as hell take offence when my worldview gets compared to a fairytale, and whenever those fairytales make get any foothold in the way my own life is being run. The real world is supposed to run on rules made for the real world, and any kind of fantasies are the personal business of the people buying them.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:14 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
What's an atheist's reward fir destroying someone else's faith in spiritual existence?

It's a little like trying to get people to shut the fuck up during a movie.


edit:

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:29 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
ITT: religious people say atheism requires faith too. Get bent.


not how i ment it but, ok

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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:28 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
No, that comparison is absurd. Sure i don't like people trying to convert me to their faith or anti-faith. But that doesn't mean that spreading one's beliefs uninvited is an inherently bad thing to do, in itself. Murder is.


Yeah, it is an inherently bad thing to do. It isn't on the same level, but it's a goddamn pain in the ass no matter who's doing the preaching. It should be no more acceptable to knock on people's doors advertising a religion than it is to do the same then preach atheism. Also, try telling Mr. Extremist [insert religion here] that killing in the name of their religion in inherently a bad thing regardless of the motivation.

Napero wrote:
I don't care too much for any kind of preaching of atheism, but I sure as hell take offence when my worldview gets compared to a fairytale, and whenever those fairytales make get any foothold in the way my own life is being run. The real world is supposed to run on rules made for the real world, and any kind of fantasies are the personal business of the people buying them.


This, pretty much.
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Beer Baron
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 1:40 pm 
 

I really don't get how people get worked up by someone else's belief.
Its not like you are being forced to believe in what you don't want to.
And whenever such discussions come up, all opposing parties tend to do is point to the extremists in each case and paint everybody involved with the same brush.
Religion isn't destroying the world, stupid and intolerant people are

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 1:42 pm 
 

Probably, but religion does serve as a free card for violence in a lot of cases.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 1:50 pm 
 

Beer Baron wrote:
I really don't get how people get worked up by someone else's belief.
Its not like you are being forced to believe in what you don't want to.
And whenever such discussions come up, all opposing parties tend to do is point to the extremists in each case and paint everybody involved with the same brush.
Religion isn't destroying the world, stupid and intolerant people are


Except religion being imposed on society is something that happens all the time, and not just in places like Saudi Arabia. Do you really think the whole gay marriage issue would even be happening in the United States if it weren't for archaic Christian views of what a family ought to mean?
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:14 pm 
 

Beer Baron probably lives in Europe.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:18 pm 
 

Well, what about the Dark Ages?
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:21 pm 
 

How are they in any way relevant to today's conditions?
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:22 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Well, what about the Dark Ages?

I think we're talking about contemporary events, obviously. The Crusades would have been a better example since they still have some impact on the Occident/Arab world relations but yeah, the Dark Ages -_-

Maybe Beer Baron is Canadian, these damn north commies!
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:29 pm 
 

The only connection I see is how the Christian monasteries preserved all the ancient Greek and Roman manuscripts that would eventually usher in the age of enlightenment. The monks single handedly saved western civilization as we know it. I think this somewhat counteracts the point you were making.
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