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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
Posts: 3447
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:49 pm 
 

CF_Mono wrote:
Small genetic influences may be a factor in either case, but they're the only other influence. Aside from that, you are in fact the only one responsible for your alcoholism or obesity. Nobody else can force you to do these things unless you're chained to a wall and have a gun to your head... Both of my parents are at least 150-200 pounds overweight and were addicted to alcohol before I was born. I'm 150 pounds (which is very good for my height) and I don't drink, in other words, they are choices made by me, not someone else.


Ever hear of an eating disorder? I'm sure you've seen alcoholism labeled as a mental disorder linked with depression. These people might be sick, but doing nothing isn't going to heal them.
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Erosion of Humanity
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 2240
Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:24 pm 
 

CF_Mono wrote:
Small genetic influences may be a factor in either case, but they're the only other influence. Aside from that, you are in fact the only one responsible for your alcoholism or obesity. Nobody else can force you to do these things unless you're chained to a wall and have a gun to your head... Both of my parents are at least 150-200 pounds overweight and were addicted to alcohol before I was born. I'm 150 pounds (which is very good for my height) and I don't drink, in other words, they are choices made by me, not someone else.


o_O Seriously... :scratch: Are you really saying that just cause you can maintain a normal weight and not drink in spite of the fact that your parents were over weight and had a drinking problem that every one else should be able too as well? I sincerely hope not. People have problems and most of them can't be changed by just deciding not to eat a ding dong or drink that beer or snort that coke or what have you. Most of the time serious problems arise from many contributing factors that may require therapy and other such treatments to deal with. And limiting the health benefits for people (especially those who suffer from afflictions that require copious amounts or treatment and care) sure as shit isn't going to help the problem. I would rather pay more in taxes or start paying for my own health care if so required so that every one can at least have a shot at getting the help that they need when they need it then save a few bucks a week and see people suffer.
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:02 pm 
 

Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
I would rather pay more in taxes or start paying for my own health care if so required so that every one can at least have a shot at getting the help that they need when they need it then save a few bucks a week and see people suffer.

Agree. I guess there's a splinter conversation going on, having left religion in the dust, but this is definitely where I fall, and it's NOT because I've had drinks... That is, so long as they're paying in, too, for whenever I get colon cancer or whatever the fuck.

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PhantomGreen
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: Imprisoned in Flesh
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:03 pm 
 

Edit: Nevermind.
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Last edited by PhantomGreen on Sun May 05, 2013 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:08 pm 
 

yessir. Contributed to this thread with strength, in fact..

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
Posts: 1970
Location: Panopticon
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:44 am 
 

Wilytank wrote:
Napero wrote:
Not everybody chooses to be fat or have alcoholism, it can result from a wide spectrum of circumstances that are not always under the person's control.


Why conservatives don't understand that is beyond me.


why bring politics into this :scratch: (Oh I guess mainly conservatives vote against health care for all where you are?)

Like car/building insurance shouldn't high risk people be covered by those who pay in but never or hardly claim?
If someones sick and needs help fucked if I want to live in a world where they're denied treatment because it was due to their lifestyle choices, bit heartless.

What's this got to do with religion working against itself?
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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:06 am 
 

The so-called Christian right in the USA holds those views, and claims to be Christian. That's really the only connection. Basing extreme greed, disregard of the suffering of others, and stuff such as gun ownership on alleged "Christian values" is the biggest hypocrisy ever. Unless you only read the old testament, of course, in which case it's not Christianity, it's a cherry-picking form of Judaism...

I am a hard-line atheist myself, but I know enough of Jesus' teachings to confidently say that claiming to be a Christian and fighting tooth and nail against paying taxes for universal healthcare are essentially completely incompatible things. It always boils down to money and greed combined with not giving a shit about others.
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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:25 am 
 

Napero wrote:
It always boils down to money and greed combined with not giving a shit about others.


Yet over here those to the right accuse their opposites of exactly the same thing - burdening the tax payer by financing institutions that were initially set up to only cover those who had contributed, the money used to set up the NHS came from America after the war. The idea with social security was when people were able to work they paid in for times when they could not.
Now both are being abused and cost billions, people are worried the NHS is slowly being privatised as a result. Politicians on both sides use them as political footballs - one throws vast amounts at them the country can't afford, while the other tries to reign it in, and cuts too far hurting those who have become dependent on welfare (encouraged to be and view it as a right is an atitude all too familiar here), and at a time where job security is only a dream for many (if your lucky enough to have a job and one which pays a livable wage now there so many competing). The ever rising welfare bill is completely unsustainable, especially when landlords are paid with an open checkbook thereby inflating housing costs for those who have to pay their own way. The UK must be the only country where a family can be better off not working (which proves how little many are paid by employers)

Who always loses? - Joe public tax payer.

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The goal of socialism is communism


don't I bloody know it :fuck:
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Last edited by mindshadow on Sun May 05, 2013 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:10 am 
 

Napero wrote:
The so-called Christian right in the USA holds those views, and claims to be Christian. That's really the only connection. Basing extreme greed, disregard of the suffering of others, and stuff such as gun ownership on alleged "Christian values" is the biggest hypocrisy ever. Unless you only read the old testament, of course, in which case it's not Christianity, it's a cherry-picking form of Judaism...


Even judaism is real anti-greed. You have a look at the few 1000 rants that Isaiah, Jeremiah etc. did and they're always raging about the widows & the orphans.

I don't have too much to contribute here, as arguing religion has never changed anyone's mind. I rather liked Subrick's post (a rarity!), though. Denying Jesus as a historical figure is a bit silly.
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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:03 pm 
 

mindshadow, there's a difference between not being able to afford a comprehensive healthcare system (UK) and not wanting to have one because someone else might benefit from it on my money (USA). I'm not arguing it's an affordable investment everywhere, but that has never been a credible so-called "christian" argument in the USA.

caspian, you do know that most of the old testament is somehow canonized in Judaism as well? You should, I think. I didn't refer to it to make a jab at the "greedy Jew" stereotype, but to point out that the integral benevolence of Christianity is pretty much purely contained in the new testament, and disregarding the teachings of the Big J in the ways you very well know I meant means you only accept the "angry god" parts of the Bible also accepted by the Jews. Yeah, a bad joke.
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Against Such Things
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:46 pm 
 

One of the things I have observed, having been raised in a rather conservative church, is that Christianity has become a culture in of itself. There are sets of political ideals, traditions, and even moral standards that have been passed down the same as any principle or standard that is actually found in scripture. Case in point - drug use is taught as immoral, but there isn't actually a single verse that can be used to support this concept. Part of the problem is that the focus of education seems to be based in "what to think" and not "how to think". And of course, deviance from the "standard" is frowned upon and treated as rebellious, or a character flaw, etc. Most of all, though, it seems to me that formal Christianity has come to be more about rules and tradition then a way of interacting with God and each other. Ironically enough, that's exactly what the scriptures say Jesus railed against on multiple occasions. And all of these factors drove me way from formal Christianity and the church as an organization. I could rant about it forever.

However, I don't think you're being quite fair in your assessment about the health care debate, Napero. Why is it assumed that because a person doesn't want government to do something, then they don't want it done at all? Taxation is tantamount to institutionalized theft; it isn't greed to want someone to stop stealing from you. There is plenty of call for hospitality and charity, and I concur that any Christian should believe in these things. Hell, at its core Christianity is supposed to be about loving God and your neighbor. The objection is to government as a medium.
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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:58 pm 
 

Against Such Things wrote:
Taxation is tantamount to institutionalized theft; it isn't greed to want someone to stop stealing from you.

And most of the people saying this when healthcare is being discussed seem to be OK with the fact that, uh, dunno, 20 times(?) the amount of institutionalized theft needed for universal healthcare is being wasted on useless wars of aggression for the benefit of corporations. It only seems to be theft if it actually might benefit some other person.
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Against Such Things
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 2:11 pm 
 

Well I doubt they share my anarchist perspective on taxation. :lol:

I'm not trying to support/defend the conservatives, but I do know a few, and the motivation isn't necessarily greed. Of course the wars are unnecessary, fruitless, and in a lot of cases, downright criminal.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:42 pm 
 

Against Such Things wrote:
Why is it assumed that because a person doesn't want government to do something, then they don't want it done at all? Taxation is tantamount to institutionalized theft; it isn't greed to want someone to stop stealing from you.

In the same vein, taxation isn't a problem so much as misuse of public taxes. To expound, pooling a portion of individual and investment or business income to fund public goods and defense is something everyone benefits from. It's contribution to a community, a social safety net. The problem isn't with taxes themselves, the same with government (and to a degree religion) in some form of blanket statement. Any one of religion's apologists should be able to see that Christians voting against public health care and in favor of individualistic hoarding is ironic to the point of anti-social absurdity. An anarchist Christian is not something I'm familiar with, since God is ostensibly the ultimate overseer.

::
There's a semantic grey area for me when it comes to "religion" because many religious people hold solely to a philosophy of good works they couch in religious rhetoric. They have no significant definition of God, it's as abstract to them as it is to me, they merely put the power of their life's outcome beyond their own will and work to achieve a sense of goodness and fullness in this abstract concept's name. Were it not for those few but crucial differences in language and in a minimum number of beliefs, they and I are philosophically similar to one another. For some reason particular magic words trigger things in their head and give them personal potency, while for me "God" and "Christ" (or anything that takes the Lord's name in Literality) are total boner-killers. Their platform may not be necessarily empirically defensible, but it certainly is not harmful in and of itself so long as the basics of reality and civil conduct are agreed upon. An argument could be made for the principle being deleterious, but it becomes an argument of belligerence if the religious person's social behavior is perpetually civil and harmless; much like the priest in Soilent Green. One could argue with his beliefs, but not his behavior.

People who find spirituality in peace and aid have more common ground with me than uncommon. That said, hard-line creationists, the abusive, and anti-social bigots should be kept away from children and have their heads examined. Anyone so committed to denial of reality and to their own shitty supremacy for fear of a crippling identity crisis appear justifiably mentally unsound and are menaces to themselves and others. But I will not hold the peaceful accountable for the work of the wicked, however much their rhetoric may chafe my mechanistic buns.

Religion started working against itself SIGNIFICANTLY when it started allowing its own hypocrisies and abuses to become its public face. It's up to the religious to change this reputation and publicly renounce the actions of their fallen kind.

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:01 pm 
 

Against Such Things wrote:
Well I doubt they share my anarchist perspective on taxation. :lol:

Maybe not, but they are pleased that you have those views. Anarchism in practice serves corporatism.
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Erosion of Humanity
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
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Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:44 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
Religion started working against itself SIGNIFICANTLY when it started allowing its own hypocrisies and abuses to become its public face. It's up to the religious to change this reputation and publicly renounce the actions of their fallen kind.


Whole heartedly agree with this statement. We really do need to make it know that we all aren't like this. The problem is that when we speak up the crazies get all up on us for "not being righteous" or "not following the word" what ever they want to call it because we don't adopt their whack job theologies and ideals.
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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:24 am 
 

Napero wrote:
mindshadow, there's a difference between not being able to afford a comprehensive healthcare system (UK) and not wanting to have one because someone else might benefit from it on my money (USA). I'm not arguing it's an affordable investment everywhere, but that has never been a credible so-called "christian" argument in the USA.


You shouldn't need private health care here because you have the NHS, people mainly pay for it so they don't have to wait too long for treatment, and can have a private room. You don't necessarily get better treatment though from a few story's I've heard and the private places rely on NHS equipment.
The problem here is over the last 15 years, especially, public health care has been put in jeapordy by politicians who have seriously overburdened the institution well beyond it's initial purpose. The UK isn't a good reference now for a public health care topic because basically it's hemorrhaging money, and yearly the cost goes up. This is due to the idiots in government (mainly past and also present to a lesser degree) and their policies, because a workable system should be simple enough if everyone pays in through their taxes (and the idiots don't squander £20 billion on computer systems that don't work).

I often watch American films and notice black communities are very poor and shanty like in places. I don't understand why a people who were once bought over as slaves should be in this predicament? Why don't those who are able want to pay into a system that would cover those in communities that can't afford care, especially considering their history and treatment? They don't seem to have been given a fighting chance of bringing themselves up to a standard many others take for granted. Surely free health care is the least they're owed?


Against Such Things wrote:
Of course the wars are unnecessary, fruitless, and in a lot of cases, downright criminal.


Can the recent wars really be blamed on religion though? Criminal is the word and a few people who are now multi-millionaires should (in a just society) be behind bars, unfortunately they had a hand in picking those high up in the judicial system.
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evil528e
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:59 pm
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Location: Va Beach, VA USA
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:11 am 
 

Against Such Things wrote:
I'm going to throw in my opinion as a Christian.

When Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was, he listed two: to love God and to love your neighbor. This was his summation and simplification of what it meant to follow Him. I think that Christian culture in general often fails to do so. When enough people who identify as something start to act in some way, it becomes part of the assumption of what they all are.

I don't have a lot of time right now, but I'm very interested in this topic and will be following.


I agree with this statement, and I am also a Christian.


Thexhumed wrote:
Maybe because Christians are more concerned about being socially accepted than being "sound to doctrine".


I agree with this 1000%

CF_Mono wrote:
I sort of agree, but I think the premise of "Embryos are living things and that's that" is good enough for most people. idk, Maybe I'm wrong. That and I think some people don't like the idea of abortion being a women's rights issue because it demonstrates how people don't like taking responsibility for their own actions (which more or less is a disturbing thought. I'm pregnant, so fix me.)


Many Christians (myself included) believe that life starts at conception. I believe that even as a fetus, the person is alive and has a soul all it's own. That's why I believe abortion is murder.

I like this thread.
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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:34 am 
 

evil528e wrote:
Many Christians (myself included) believe that life starts at conception. I believe that even as a fetus, the person is alive and has a soul all it's own. That's why I believe abortion is murder.

...and this, usually, is the point when all reasoning is thrown out of the window. Just out of curiosity, does the Bible actually say this somewhere? Or is it just a committee decision made by 70-year old virgin males in frocks?
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Against Such Things
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 8:16 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:41 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
evil528e wrote:
Many Christians (myself included) believe that life starts at conception. I believe that even as a fetus, the person is alive and has a soul all it's own. That's why I believe abortion is murder.

...and this, usually, is the point when all reasoning is thrown out of the window. Just out of curiosity, does the Bible actually say this somewhere? Or is it just a committee decision made by 70-year old virgin males in frocks?


The only verse I've ever heard used was Jeremiah 1:5, which is in the larger context of Jeremiah being commissioned as a prophet.
"“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”" (NASB translation)

I find it sketchy support at best. Usually though, they stick with biological arguments for life at conception (or at minimum, whatever point the fetus is viable).
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Scourge441
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:46 pm 
 

evil528e wrote:
Many Christians (myself included) believe that life starts at conception. I believe that even as a fetus, the person is alive and has a soul all it's own. That's why I believe abortion is murder.

But does having a soul and being alive entitle a person to live and subsist at the expense of the mother? An unborn child, living and growing inside of another person, sucking away the nutrients from their food and making life more uncomfortable, would be classified as a parasite if its existence wasn't necessary for the survival of the species. A mother has every right to put herself through that, whether the unborn child has a soul or not.

I encourage you to read A Defense of Abortion if you haven't. I don't have the time to explore the nuances of this argument at the moment, so I'll let Judith Jarvis Thomson do it for me.

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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:04 pm 
 

^ There's no need to dehumanize or vilify a fetus in order to get one's head around abortion. We're men, not face-huggers.


Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
We really do need to make it know that we all aren't like this. The problem is that when we speak up the crazies get all up on us for "not being righteous" or "not following the word" what ever they want to call it because we don't adopt their whack job theologies and ideals.

Castigation. What they need is a good righteous scourging. It's what they're asking for, in a way, they just don't have the courage to come out of their masochistic closet. Ironically, you might be being a true sadist by refusing them a furious tongue lashing. Some people want to be publicly humiliated and paddled with the bible. "oh oh yes tie me up and parade me as a false christian display me i want to burn with guilt and shame."

::
Never really thought about it before this morning, but if I were Christian, the crazies wouldn't see the end of me. If I were Christian, I'm almost certain I would be quite militant about it. The main reason I'm not militant in general is because I don't have an immutable conviction of what humanity should be, the way I did when I was younger. I've coped with humanity's bullshit with the adage "dog will hunt". Even so, I want to help, so I'm going into mental health.

Given that stubbornly idealistic quirk in my personality, I doubt I'd be able to sit still while the name and word of Christ was being shit on, and the truly remarkable vision at the heart of philosophical Christianity was being manipulated for simony and abuse. I'd likely have taken up a campaign to put the location of the laundry list of molesting priests online the way gun owners are now. Pedo_Locator!! For maximum effect it's not unlikely I'd become a priest myself, one deeply unloved by the church for my foul mouth, my constant insistence that redemption of the word is Christian duty, and my unceasing vitriol against the dissembling ghouls and "the collective Judas". As you can see from my post history, I can get on a florid rant pretty easily. They would hear choice words.

There's the recurrent point of view that the religious have been cowed, and even though compassion is a commendable trait and goal, anger is not a weakness and is frequently a function of compassion. Hate and anger are very different things, and the "good" have been taught to put their fiercer feelings down (unless that feature of the human can be harvested for conquest) and let God do His thing. I would not show the crazies kindness because they are TRUE heretics and blasphemers, and though I support at least a modicum of love and patience for one's fellow man, they are just that .. crazy, and they would receive the brunt of my holy wrath. As it is I lack the tools and the fervor, not to mention the belief itself. I'm a poor candidate to fill what I view as a vital position.

These day I practice strategic avoidance as I'm not Christian, and that fight isn't mine. I don't have the vocabulary or the background to bring the hammer as I would if I were Christian, embodying the story of the radical and vital Jesus (not the placid icon) and the wild man John. These days, the closest I have is Zarathustra. The religious speak a dialect that would ring hollow if I tried to use it. The sword of fire can best (and should) be wielded by one who truly believes.

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Erosion of Humanity
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:40 pm 
 

I love reading your posts on religious topics Grave_Wyrm. You speak with such conviction about what Christianity truly should be that sometimes I forget that your an atheist and I think we (the Christians) could actually learn a bit from you. I'd like to throw out a quote that I think fits this topic perfectly.

" The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable" -DC Talk.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:51 pm 
 

Glad it's worth reading! :) It's reciprocal learning, really, since it's from the Christians I know that I've learned to see past the disagreements into common cause. I've said a lot of stupid, hurtful things to religious people for callous, selfish reasons and the patience and sensitivity I've been shown have been inspiring.

[edit}
And, oddly, Blind Guardian kind of helped with the back story of the character of Jesus. "Precious Jerusalem" and "Sadly Sings Destiny" are pretty good fan fiction. But as far as that kind of thing goes, I definitely relate more to "Age of False Innocence".

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:33 pm 
 

Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
" The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable" -DC Talk.

Horseshit.

Atheism grows organically out of a materialist understanding of reality: the only understanding of reality that grows out of an investigation into the world outside your imagination.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:45 pm 
 

I dislike atheists who go on about how they respect "nice" religious people. The worst case is how the south park guys worship mormons. What makes it so despicable is how they completely whitewash mormonism, too, which is just as reactionary as the loudmouth sects (and moreso than many) but better organized so politically they are more effective. Then those atheists think they are smarter than the other atheists for providing them cover.

Religion is a manifestation of incorrect knowledge and wrong methods of thinking. Nothing nice about that.
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Sao
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:21 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
I dislike atheists who go on about how they respect "nice" religious people.


You can thank the cowardly American left for that, their blind worship of multiculturalism has made them unable to fully criticize people and movements who aren't a part of their domain (i.e. professors, contributors to The Nation); they are compelled to seek out the good side of a group and focus on it, no matter how odious they are overall.

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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:35 am 
 

Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
" The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable" -DC Talk.


I think thats a smokescreen really. The true cause is more likely to be the complete lack of physical evidence for gods existence. At least it is for me. It seems highly unlikely that a higher being exists and even if it did, it doesn't appear to be capable or willing to make any actual changes to reality. It is somewhat liberating to know that we have 100% responsibilty and ability to make of existence what we will.

Quote:
Religion is a manifestation of incorrect knowledge and wrong methods of thinking. Nothing nice about that.


Spot on. Lets not kid ourselves here-religion is a dangerous delusion which has caused untold sufferring; the sooner it is gone, the better our world may become. Faith is far from admirable, in my own opinion.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:19 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
I dislike atheists who go on about how they respect "nice" religious people.

Hm. Looks like I'm essentially one of those. To be a likeable atheist, should I disrespect nice religious people?


Acidgobblin wrote:
It is somewhat liberating to know that we have 100% responsibilty and ability to make of existence what we will.

However, realistically speaking that isn't strictly true whether or not there are any of the religiously defined gods.

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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:21 am 
 

^True, its unlikely we will ever be able to fly using just our arms as wings, but for more earthly pursuits, 100% freedom and choice is close to real....
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Napero
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:30 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
The worst case is how the south park guys worship mormons. What makes it so despicable is how they completely whitewash mormonism, too, which is just as reactionary as the loudmouth sects (and moreso than many) but better organized so politically they are more effective.

You're either trolling hard, managing to interpret the South Park intentions with a mental equivalent of a crowbar until nothing remains recognizable, or simply completely off your rocker, dude. I mean... shit... This really cannot be put politly, I'm sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyiflmigQNs
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Erosion of Humanity
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:58 am 
 

Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
" The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable" -DC Talk.


I was just throwing this out there cause it fits the OP as a religious person seeing religion work against itself.
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cultofkraken
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:39 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
You're either trolling hard, managing to interpret the South Park intentions with a mental equivalent of a crowbar until nothing remains recognizable, or simply completely off your rocker, dude. I mean... shit... This really cannot be put politly, I'm sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyiflmigQNs


Yeah but that was from 3 years ago. I watched a recent Daily Show interview with the both of them and there was some pretty big mormon cocksucking going on, and even if they were being diplomatic or what have you that interview was pretty disappointing to see how spineless they were.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:11 pm 
 

As a Nihilistic agnostic Muslim (yes it seems contradictory but i can tell you my head has not exploded as far as i know) i have a few thoughts of my own.

First of all I think that religion itself can not be blamed for anything. Humanity itself creates what it creates for various reasons. Religion has at many points in history been a helpful element in the history of mankind. From dark age monks preserving knowledge to the Islamic golden age. However whenever religion is used as justification to deny, oppress or whatever else a differing point of view it seems that the ones doing this are not doing it because they disagree with this ideology. They do it because they feel that it threatens their base of power or the stability of their life. If we look at the famous american christian conservatives, they most of all are manipulated by those who have the money and the power to make things better for the rich and powerful not for every average christian conservative. Blaming religion for whatever those people do is to me just misplaced hope in humanity.
I think the west without religion now might be better overall but who knows what the future holds. A time may come that religion in some form might again help humanity significantly. A society without religion needs stable and good living conditions for all within. People don't seem to have the energy to develop their societies morals and ethics if they are mostly busy struggling to survive. Through most of history this has been the case for most of humanity and only recently there are a significant group of people who do not need to struggle significantly every day to survive.

I also quite agree with Flapack's post.

Also Napero, know that i love you but your knowledge of the Islamic world and its history seems to be lacking.

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Against Such Things
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:57 pm 
 

Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
" The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable" -DC Talk.


I was just throwing this out there cause it fits the OP as a religious person seeing religion work against itself.

Imo this is really only applicable to people who were Christian at one point or debating becoming one but were driven away.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:04 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
John_Sunlight wrote:
I dislike atheists who go on about how they respect "nice" religious people.

Hm. Looks like I'm essentially one of those. To be a likeable atheist, should I disrespect nice religious people?

You shouldn't respect their religiosity. The position that their religion is ok if it makes them act nice is abiding by the theist logic that without the religion they wouldn't be nice and its interrelated conclusion that religion is the basis of ethics and morality and atheism must be nihilistic. None of these things are true and there is no reason to accept the logic on which these things are based, as it isn't correct either.

Napero wrote:
You're either trolling hard, managing to interpret the South Park intentions with a mental equivalent of a crowbar until nothing remains recognizable, or simply completely off your rocker, dude. I mean... shit... This really cannot be put politly, I'm sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyiflmigQNs

Going by the episode of south park, their play, and many other statements they've made my assessment is totally accurate. That interview doesn't even go against anything I said. I know you want me to be wrong all the time but in this case my criticism is 100% correct. Where in that video did they mention the shadey politics of the church? Their culty missionary work? The massive corruption all around it? The fact that the religion doesn't make people nicer? That it makes people nice is the message they have assiduously put out there in all their portrayals of mormons and mormonism. That message is a flat out lie.
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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:05 pm 
 

Sao wrote:
John_Sunlight wrote:
I dislike atheists who go on about how they respect "nice" religious people.


You can thank the cowardly American left for that, their blind worship of multiculturalism has made them unable to fully criticize people and movements who aren't a part of their domain


Why does this sound vaguely familiar?


Spoiler: show
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:15 pm 
 

He does have a point. I know I'm the wrong guy to make this particular criticism, but notice how the American left has a really hard time criticizing Islam? American Islamophobia is wrong, but apologizing for Wahhabis and Deobandis and mercenary jihadis (like those in Libya, Syria, etc) is wrong as well. The American left has a hard time criticizing third worlders because they aren't used to thinking outside their own first world lives. They often try to frame things in the same way they would events that happened here.
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Napero
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:19 pm 
 

cultofkraken wrote:
Yeah but that was from 3 years ago. I watched a recent Daily Show interview with the both of them and there was some pretty big mormon cocksucking going on, and even if they were being diplomatic or what have you that interview was pretty disappointing to see how spineless they were.

Link or didn't happen. We can't comment on this unless we see the interview.

tomcat_ha wrote:
Also Napero, know that i love you but your knowledge of the Islamic world and its history seems to be lacking.

I am the first one to admit that much, and I must say I've actually enjoyed the company of every Muslim I've ever met. But just mentioning that does not quite work as a counter-argument for my argument that certain ideas, like killing of apostates, spreading the faith with a sword, and so forth are built into the religion, and that no one in the established Islamic authorities ever seems to condemn most of the atrocities committed in its name. That's the part that's oddly lacking, so please provide an insight if I'm completely wrong.

And yeah, Islam did provide the world with a very enlightening era, the Golden Age, a thousand years ago. There are things worth admiring there, as there are in today's Islamic world. But just like Christianity, Islam has its share of bad sides to its name, and unlike WBC and other fringes of Christian goofiness, the extremists do seem to enjoy a creepy level of acceptance from the mainstream Islam. Unless, of course, the international media has a humongous cover-up operation going on, and none of it ever gets any airtime. At times when there's a more or less religiously themed war going on somewhere, organizing a demonstration in the Nordics with banners demanding the beheading of a cartoonist is a VERY bad publicity move. Images count, more than we might be willing to admit.

John_Sunlight wrote:
Going by the episode of south park, their play, and many other statements they've made my assessment is totally accurate. That interview doesn't even go against anything I said. I know you want me to be wrong all the time but in this case my criticism is 100% correct. Where in that video did they mention the shadey politics of the church? Their culty missionary work? The massive corruption all around it? The fact that the religion doesn't make people nicer? That it makes people nice is the message they have assiduously put out there in all their portrayals of mormons and mormonism. That message is a flat out lie.

Well, the episode, in my eyes, clearly portrays the Mormons as creepy weirdos. I can't understand how anyone could construe that as a positive portrayal of the religion... The fake happiness, plastic family life, creepy niceness to everybody around, not to mention the fact that they walk a fine line between showing the true beliefs of the LDS and overblown comedy. If you indeed see all that as a favourable view of the Mormon faith, their obviously fake cheerfulness, and almost drugged happiness of the family life, I don't know how to respond. Maybe we just have very different definitions of irony and sarcasm.

Further, they didn't really touch on the mentioned shady politics, culty missionaries and corruption of the scientologists, either, when they had the famous episode on them. Actually, they did pretty much the same thing as here, and told what the faithful actually believe, except that they made Tom Cruise refuse to come out of the closet for some reason... And that has never been seen as a pro-scientology thing by anyone.

Their point, I believe, is equal to certain comedians' opinions on GW Bush: the source material is so golden that you just can't hate the object, no matter how repulsive it is in real life. But if that made you feel better about Mormons and maybe want to join their ranks, feel free.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:54 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
cultofkraken wrote:
And yeah, Islam did provide the world with a very enlightening era, the Golden Age, a thousand years ago. There are things worth admiring there, as there are in today's Islamic world. But just like Christianity, Islam has its share of bad sides to its name, and unlike WBC and other fringes of Christian goofiness, the extremists do seem to enjoy a creepy level of acceptance from the mainstream Islam. Unless, of course, the international media has a humongous cover-up operation going on, and none of it ever gets any airtime. At times when there's a more or less religiously themed war going on somewhere, organizing a demonstration in the Nordics with banners demanding the beheading of a cartoonist is a VERY bad publicity move. Images count, more than we might be willing to admit.


I did not really want to start another islam is not so bad thing. We've had too much of those already here but ill link you this: http://www.kamranpasha.com/blog/?p=68

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