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Beer Baron
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:30 pm
Posts: 1584
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:53 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
Maybe Beer Baron is Canadian, these damn north commies!

:-P
henkkjelle wrote:
Probably, but religion does serve as a free card for violence in a lot of cases.


iamntbatman wrote:
Except religion being imposed on society is something that happens all the time, and not just in places like Saudi Arabia. Do you really think the whole gay marriage issue would even be happening in the United States if it weren't for archaic Christian views of what a family ought to mean?


Poisonfume wrote:
Beer Baron probably lives in Europe.

I'm originally from Cleveland but i'm based in Africa at the moment.

I get what all of you are saying but it really comes down to misinterpretation and overcomplication of their respective doctrines. Most Religions basically preach love and tolerance but these books things are so easily misinterpreted.
So its not really a case of Religion itself being the cause of these problems, rather it is extremists who interprete it into whichever meaning goes with their extreme views and gullible people follow suit

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Poisonfume
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:26 pm
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 3:57 pm 
 

No, for every line preaching peace there is another line condoning hatred and bigotry.
The problem isn't misinterpretation; on the contrary, it is the overly accurate interpretation and the lack of modernization. That is to say, the fact that the religion isn't being reinterpreted to exist in harmony with contemporary society.
However, I still believe that at its core, religion encourages ignorance, and for that reason it's the fault of both the people (as you say) AND the religion.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 7:18 pm 
 

How's this for an orgy of stupid?

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4737
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:08 pm 
 

Poisonfume wrote:
No, for every line preaching peace there is another line condoning hatred and bigotry.
The problem isn't misinterpretation; on the contrary, it is the overly accurate interpretation and the lack of modernization. That is to say, the fact that the religion isn't being reinterpreted to exist in harmony with contemporary society.

Wise analysis. The old testament, for example, has values that don't make sense in the context of living in today's world, but for the ancient hebrews the rules would have made perfect sense when the goal was for the hebrew tribe to survive. They were a small and weak group surrounded by lots of more powerful nations. In this context, the demands for rigid sectarianism and the prohibitions on assimilation of/into other cultures as well as the strict enforcement of these rules are perfectly rational.
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Thexhumed
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Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:26 pm
Posts: 498
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:14 pm 
 

Poisonfume wrote:
No, for every line preaching peace there is another line condoning hatred and bigotry.


Could you please provide some examples of this?

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:43 pm 
 

Poisonfume wrote:
How are they in any way relevant to today's conditions?


Christianity is still the biggest religion in Europe, and it still affects a lot of people's mindsets. There is still a noticeable amount of dislike against homosexuals for example. And while the catholic church has abandoned the more extreme views like openly persecuting the people that don't agree with them, a significant part of the church doesn't support gay marriage and thinks that teaching children fairytales as the truth is the right thing to do. The reason that the Catholic church still has a fairly strong foothold in europe is because of the middle ages. Hell, the reason they became powerfull in the first place is because of the fall of the roman empire and the start of the middle ages.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:52 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Poisonfume wrote:
How are they in any way relevant to today's conditions?

Hell, the reason they became powerful in the first place is because of the fall of the roman empire and the start of the middle ages.

Christianity became powerful when Constantine proclaimed the liberty of religions and became a Christian himself. Gregory the Great was also one of the most important man for the development of the Church in Europe during the Middle Ages (that's still 150 years after the start of the Middle Ages though). Yes, the church became more powerful after the Fall of the Roman Empire but that's not a reason by itself, there's also the schism of the of Churches in 1054 which is very important. The Fall of the Empire was a change of government more than a change of values, don't forget than the Romanization was a long and assimilating project
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Poisonfume
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:26 pm
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:58 pm 
 

Thexhumed wrote:
Poisonfume wrote:
No, for every line preaching peace there is another line condoning hatred and bigotry.


Could you please provide some examples of this?


Are you kidding me?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:02 pm 
 

That teaches me for only learning the bare necessities in history class. Not that the teacher ever ventured further than the bare necessities anyway. Oh well, I'm only 19... there's time to learn. :)
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Poisonfume
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:26 pm
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:06 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
That teaches me for only learning the bare necessities in history class. Not that the teacher ever ventured further than the bare necessities anyway. Oh well, I'm only 19... there's time to learn. :)


I wouldnt say you're wrong, you're partially right. But I just feel using the Dark Ages in a religious debate is the ultimate atheist cop out. It's just too remote to hold any water in an argument concerning this day and age.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:15 pm 
 

The dark ages werent that dark anyway.
The last few hundred years of the roman empire was a period of total stagnation. Just look at the roman stuff that gets talk about, including some fancy scientific things like that guy who was busy with steampower already and that calculator/clock thing antiackya clock or something. These things all happened mostly around the same time.
Western society was never saved and never was in real danger, the only proper definition of the western world that makes sense is a post-hellenistic world and this includes the islamic world etc and we all know how well they did for pretty much a thousand years.

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:21 pm 
 

Poisonfume wrote:
henkkjelle wrote:
That teaches me for only learning the bare necessities in history class. Not that the teacher ever ventured further than the bare necessities anyway. Oh well, I'm only 19... there's time to learn. :)


I wouldnt say you're wrong, you're partially right. But I just feel using the Dark Ages in a religious debate is the ultimate atheist cop out. It's just too remote to hold any water in an argument concerning this day and age.


Maybe, but I just think that the moral guidelines advocated by the middle age era church still affect modern day Europe to some degree. Not in mainstream society though, unless you are talking about certain eastern european countries where hatred against homosexuals is still very much alive.
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Poisonfume
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:26 pm
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:26 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
The dark ages werent that dark anyway.
The last few hundred years of the roman empire was a period of total stagnation. Just look at the roman stuff that gets talk about, including some fancy scientific things like that guy who was busy with steampower already and that calculator/clock thing antiackya clock or something. These things all happened mostly around the same time.
Western society was never saved and never was in real danger, the only proper definition of the western world that makes sense is a post-hellenistic world and this includes the islamic world etc and we all know how well they did for pretty much a thousand years.


What are you on about? :scratch:
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:36 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Maybe, but I just think that the moral guidelines advocated by the middle age era church still affect modern day Europe to some degree. Not in mainstream society though, unless you are talking about certain eastern european countries where hatred against homosexuals is still very much alive.


France, which obviously used to be a very Catholic country but is now quite irreligious, is currently going through a gay marriage debate where the Catholic Church has been directly supporting the opposition. It ain't just in the east.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:59 pm 
 

True, I totally forgot about that. I get the feeling that it's more underground and less vocal in western european countries though. Atleast until something big like gay marriage comes along.
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Beer Baron
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:30 pm
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:42 pm 
 

Poisonfume wrote:


Yep, just as I thought. Everything there's from the Old Testament.
Why do u think a new testament was written then?
And some of the points made there are just lazy - like the part where they talk about Jesus washing people with his blood or making people drink his blood. Those things weren't meant literally.


Last edited by Beer Baron on Sun May 12, 2013 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Beer Baron
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:51 pm 
 

Anyways, my original point being is the basic and most important message in most religions is love. If most religious people were really grounded in that, there wouldn't be any place for hatred in their hearts.
That's why I said its down to people misunderstanding their respective doctrines and not applying the parts that are relevant in today's world.

As for the gay marriage and violence, do people really think all homophobia and disputes stem from religion?

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Erosion of Humanity
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
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Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 12:34 am 
 

Poisonfume wrote:
Thexhumed wrote:
Poisonfume wrote:
No, for every line preaching peace there is another line condoning hatred and bigotry.


Could you please provide some examples of this?


Are you kidding me?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html



So I just skimmed that page cause it's way to damned long to bother reading and this is what I got from it:
A bunch of people trying to find contradictions in the bible in the same ways that haven't worked before. All that shit from the old testament was abolished (except for the Jews if my understanding is correct but I'm not really up on Judaism so don't quote me on that part) when Jesus came and saved the gentiles, hence the new testament. Jesus's teachings became the new laws for the people. And as far as the first quote on that page, which is from Revelations, is concerned it was presented to John as a dream if I remember correctly and it's really meant as a warning to people more than anything else.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 4:24 am 
 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 5:43 am 
 

Poisonfume wrote:
tomcat_ha wrote:
The dark ages werent that dark anyway.
The last few hundred years of the roman empire was a period of total stagnation. Just look at the roman stuff that gets talk about, including some fancy scientific things like that guy who was busy with steampower already and that calculator/clock thing antiackya clock or something. These things all happened mostly around the same time.
Western society was never saved and never was in real danger, the only proper definition of the western world that makes sense is a post-hellenistic world and this includes the islamic world etc and we all know how well they did for pretty much a thousand years.


What are you on about? :scratch:


you know a few people were talking about the dark ages.

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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 6:34 am 
 

Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
So I just skimmed that page cause it's way to damned long to bother reading and this is what I got from it:
A bunch of people trying to find contradictions in the bible in the same ways that haven't worked before. All that shit from the old testament was abolished (except for the Jews if my understanding is correct but I'm not really up on Judaism so don't quote me on that part) when Jesus came and saved the gentiles, hence the new testament. Jesus's teachings became the new laws for the people. And as far as the first quote on that page, which is from Revelations, is concerned it was presented to John as a dream if I remember correctly and it's really meant as a warning to people more than anything else.


So I paid no particular attention to the link you sent me because the list of immoralities it presents in the book I'm trying to defend was too long.

Had you actually bothered you'd have realized that roughly half of the page is taken from the new testament and Jesus' teachings. Christians often try to excuse the old testament by saying that the new is the 'real deal', yet the new is just as littered with contradictions and inexplicable cruelty from the mouth of the son of god himself. Not to mention that Jesus explicitly stated that the old testament was totally valid, as inhumanist pointed out. Please don't make me write you a list, I already gave you a comprehensive one.

There is no defending this book, man. You are fighting a lost cause. You'll find more logic in Mein Kampf.
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Last edited by Poisonfume on Sun May 12, 2013 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Beer Baron
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:17 am 
 

Poisonfume, it really isn't difficult to disagree with something without resorting to insults.

As for the Scripture Inhumanist quoted, Christ's purpose wasn't to render the Old Testament useless. No, the Laws are still the same but with Jesus Christ's emergence, the means to fulfill them changed.
To anybody who has done an honest study of the Bible either because of their beliefs, historical purposes or just for the sake of it, its as clear as day that the ways Christ went about His work is markedly different from what is seen in the Old Testament.

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 9:55 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
The dark ages werent that dark anyway.
The last few hundred years of the roman empire was a period of total stagnation. Just look at the roman stuff that gets talk about, including some fancy scientific things like that guy who was busy with steampower already and that calculator/clock thing antiackya clock or something. These things all happened mostly around the same time.
Western society was never saved and never was in real danger, the only proper definition of the western world that makes sense is a post-hellenistic world and this includes the islamic world etc and we all know how well they did for pretty much a thousand years.


The Last Roman General - Flavius Aetius saved Europe. Fought Attila to a standstill, most of his rag tag army including many Visigoths were slain at the battle of the Catalaunian Plains. He was a hero and was stabbed in the back for all his efforts by some spoilt rich lily-livered twat (his own Emperor).

The Eastern Roman Empire ended in 1453.

Don't think much of the romans but they were hard bastards and were all that stopped most of Europe getting totally wiped off the map.
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JT Rager
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 1:57 pm 
 

You can't discount the old testament when trying to defend the bible if you're going to be serious about defending it. For one, it's 2/3 of the bible at least!

If Christians don't want to defend that part of the bible, then why don't they just get rid of that part of the bible completely? Or speak out against the atrocities in it? There is some incredibly immoral stuff in that book. It not only endorses slavery, it states that you can beat them nearly to death (Exodus 21:20-21)! It states that a rape victim must marry her rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). What's the point of keeping this shit around if you're going to have to try and defend it?

Furthermore, if you throw out the Old Testament, you throw out the Ten Commandments. What Christian wants to throw that out?
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Bede
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 2:43 pm 
 

Speaking of the old testament, or the bible in general, who decides what is taken literally and what is not? I mean, religious people tend to be very quick to mention that this and this part of the bible is meant to be taken figuratively (mainly because in literal sense it's something sick and twisted).

After all, it is supposed to be the word of god, so it seems kind of a bold move when some people very confidently re-interpret the holy words.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 3:06 pm 
 

Christians today mostly don't take it as the actual word of god, as that would be limplying that the people who created these stories etc. had no influence on the message, which is ludicrous. They don't even necessarily believe (of course a lot of them still do) that any of what's in the bible contains any insight into divine truth. Those Christians see the scripture only as the man-made foundation of their church, like a constitution (although a very incoherent one), and therefore subject to critical revision. Of course the average christian Joe does not ponder such questions, never did.
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Doomed Cowboy
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 5:27 pm 
 

This thread was going so good, and then...
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:14 pm 
 

Can you blame them? Ever since the first time the word was translated it's all been interpretation. Those Muslims have the right idea. Don't change god's word, just remember the original.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:03 am 
 

Gypaetus wrote:
severzhavnost wrote:
But that doesn't mean that spreading one's beliefs uninvited is an inherently bad thing to do, in itself


Yeah, it is an inherently bad thing to do. It isn't on the same level, but it's a goddamn pain in the ass no matter who's doing the preaching. It should be no more acceptable to knock on people's doors advertising a religion than it is to do the same then preach atheism.


Heard of free speech? when the Jehovah's Witnesses or whoever come around you can simply tell them you're not interested. But just because you think "it's a goddamn pain in the ass" - and i agree it can be - doesn't give you the right to say "it should be no more acceptable..." I feel like a state run by you would be quite dictatorial.

Napero wrote:
I don't care too much for any kind of preaching of atheism, but I sure as hell take offence when my worldview gets compared to a fairytale
[/quote]

I didn't compare anyone's worldview (I'm presuming yours is irreligious) to a fairytale. That whole "atheism is a religion too" argument is retarded. But again, like the first guy - there's nothing wrong with an individual or group preaching what they have freely chosen to believe is correct! Can we agree to differentiate that from a systematic, state-backed effort to enforce/eliminate whichever religious belief/unbelief? Seems a lot of people can't and i don't understand why...

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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:18 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Don't change god's word, just remember the original.

or at least .. don't change the Prophet's word.
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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:40 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Heard of free speech? when the Jehovah's Witnesses or whoever come around you can simply tell them you're not interested. But just because you think "it's a goddamn pain in the ass" - and i agree it can be - doesn't give you the right to say "it should be no more acceptable..." I feel like a state run by you would be quite dictatorial.


:lol: I just had to point out the hypocrisy there.

Anyway, to try and keep things a bit more civil - to clarify my point: I gave a rebuttal to your claim that preaching a religion is better than preaching atheism (which I disagree wholeheartedly with). I said it should be no more acceptable to knock on people's doors advertising a religion than it is to do the same then preach atheism. As in, neither should be 'better' to do than the other (in fact both are retarded) but I'm certainly not saying either should be forbidden (in my ideal dictatorship though I could only hope :P). In my opinion, either both should be acceptable, or neither - none of this "oh it's less bad if you're religious because you want to get into heaven, but for atheists it's a shittier thing to do because atheism".

Anyway, quite a few people (including you) seem to think it's 'better' to do certain things in the name of a religion or some kind of religious fulfillment, than it is to do those things for a non-religious reason. I think that's ridiculous. That was the point I was trying to make, and I think you know that but are arguing semantics for the sake of it. If that is the case then carry on :beer: Besides, this is really a pretty minor point to be getting hung up on. I'm fairly sure there's far more important things to debate relevant to this topic than what particular type of door knocker is most irritating.

Beer Baron wrote:
Poisonfume, it really isn't difficult to disagree with something without resorting to insults.


It's quite a shame that religious discussions always devolve into full blown arguments, but I don't think Poisonfume was resorting to insults in that case. It was a very... direct way of putting it, but it was quite civil considering what he was responding to. He raises a valid point, albeit a slightly Hitlery one.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 1:11 am 
 

Ah i feel a little dense, in that i don't see the hypocrisy :P
Well maybe i do, now that you've cleared up that you weren't advocating silencing the spread of opinions... Sure, spreading atheism or religion should be seen as equally "acceptable" in the grand scheme. I'll agree with your all-or-nothing proposal in that question. Can i not - personally, not as any kind of guideline for social/political community - reserve the choice to be more receptive to someone peddling opinions that are closer to my own though?

I still stand by this: spreading one's opinions is neither inherently good or bad. So it is reasonable to make the distinction of whom i, individually, would rather listen to. [b]while never begrudging my opponents the chance to carry on and pester someone else[b]. p.s. why did that not appear in bold at the end? urgh computers

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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:03 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Ah i feel a little dense, in that i don't see the hypocrisy :P

The hypocrisy was that you asked if I'd heard of free speech then said I didn't have the right to say something, haha. It's all good though! Seems things have been cleared up.

severzhavnost wrote:
Well maybe i do, now that you've cleared up that you weren't advocating silencing the spread of opinions... Sure, spreading atheism or religion should be seen as equally "acceptable" in the grand scheme. I'll agree with your all-or-nothing proposal in that question. Can i not - personally, not as any kind of guideline for social/political community - reserve the choice to be more receptive to someone peddling opinions that are closer to my own though?

I still stand by this: spreading one's opinions is neither inherently good or bad. So it is reasonable to make the distinction of whom i, individually, would rather listen to. [b]while never begrudging my opponents the chance to carry on and pester someone else[b]. p.s. why did that not appear in bold at the end? urgh computers


That's fair enough. It's when people tend to start thinking that their personal choice is the objectively better choice, and anyone doing exactly the same thing for a different cause is somehow doing the 'wrong' thing that I have a problem with.

I'd agree with your last point to an extent... To put it bluntly, I'm all for the free expression of opinions, but I'm opposed to preaching and I really wish people would stop doing it. To me, they are different things. Preaching does their cause no favours, and does little more than annoy people. That's just my personal opinion on it - if you see preaching and expressing an opinion as the same thing then we've completely misunderstood each other :P

Anyway, to give an example because it's kind of hard to explain: I've had Mormons knock on my door (no Jehovah's Witnesses strangely enough), and I do politely tell them I'm not interested. If they wish me a good day and leave, there's no issue. They expressed their opinion, I gave my response. If I'd then turned around and said to them that atheism is the right way of thinking and they disagreed, which lead to a debate then that's all good! Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and to express their opinion. Hell, I wouldn't be overly bothered if they turned around and insulted me for being an atheist (I would tell them to get off my property however).

However, if they (instead of leaving) start lamenting the fact that I'm going to go to hell if I don't wear magic underpants, bug me when I've made it clear I'm not interested and want the discussion to end (like the people that follow you with religious pamphlets when you're walking around) then that to me crosses a line. The former is sharing an opinion, the latter is disrespectful at best, and harassment at worst depending on how insistent they are (I like my current underpants dammit). Preaching makes me think of the latter, not the former. People have the right to do both of course, but one is (much) better than the other I think - for everyone involved.

Off topic: The last square bracket needs to be this (minus the spaces) [ / b ] to bold something by the way.
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:41 pm 
 

Gypaetus wrote:

Beer Baron wrote:
Poisonfume, it really isn't difficult to disagree with something without resorting to insults.


He raises a valid point, albeit a slightly Hitlery one.


Well I have been known to see Hitlers where there are no Hitlers. :roll:
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 4:29 pm 
 

This cropped up on facebook today.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/kum ... ZFFZcrSn75
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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:09 am 
 

^I feel that situation is a bit seperate to theistic belief. People may be more convinced of divinity when they see what claims to be an actual, physical embodiment of it.
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