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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:49 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Yeah, the Night Watch scenes were terrible. All the sense of urgency from Sam's escape is gone, there is no blizzard, no pursuing supernatural enemies, hell you don't even know what really happened. I understand budget restrictions, but really, a toned-down version of the battle of the Fist couldn't have been possible? Just hide most of the effects required through a blizzard veil, come on.


Yeah. Especially if you're doing a night/storm battle, you could get the essential job done with 30-60 seconds of some undead approaching en masse through firelight, a desperate call to arms, a few chaotic melée shots... you wouldn't even hardly need CG. Bizarre. And even if they couldn't manage that, couldn't they at least have given us a shot (one shot!) of the remnants of the Watch force walking back to the Wall through some carnage or something? Some littered corpses...something to show us that a battle happened.

I just don't get it. This show seems to have a serious problem with establishing off-screen events. Like all the battles that Robb is supposedly winning left and right... for all we see he might as well be on an extended camping trip. And then in this episode he and Karstark are talking about how diminished their numbers are... but ...why? When? Did they lose a battle or something? WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING. Sam was supposed to dispatch the ravens? When? How? For what?

:panda: Huuurrrrrrrrggg
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:01 pm 
 

With this in mind, it's hard to predict what will happen: http://io9.com/you-really-dont-want-gam ... -456658267

It's pissing me off to see GRRM being so slow with the 6th book but it was the same thing with Dance and he's not getting younger... He should really finish it soon but it must be hard since he's involved in the TV show as well. I'm sure he wants to finish the books, but he was a busy man with many different projects and ASOIAF became his most popular.

But yeah, if they do 2 seasons for book 4 and 5 like they'll do with book 3, it should be fine. At the same time, the 4th and 5th books are not as tight and good (in my opinion) as the first 3. 2 seasons are perhaps necessary for the storytelling but it will be boring and full of filler (not that the producers are not making their own not canon fillers already -_-). I doubt HBO wants his star show to lose his focus and popularity, we'll see...

My prediction:
2014 - A Storm of Swords 2nd season.
Spoiler: show
(it will start with or follow the Red Wedding, probably)

2015 to 2018 or so: A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons. They need to be adapted at the same time since the narratives and characters are split in two (no Tyrion in AFFC...). The events are happening at the same time, but the huge amount of characters and the length of the novel made it difficult to publish it under one book.
2019 - ???
Also, it's a TV show and the time frame (the actors are getting older, that's always a problem...). Adapting the books to the screen is a success so far, but I'm not quite sure they'll manage to pull it off in the end, there's so many characters involved and it's hard to follow for non readers or even casual readers sometimes as we can see in this thread.

Anyway, can't wait to see the Black Fish and Beric!
Cool featurette with the new characters for S03: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... N28-TdHCbI
Sad that they decided to cut Strong Belwas :(
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:16 pm 
 

I hate series in general because of the filler and dragging on, the feeling of having watched an hour of nothing really happening episode after episode (fucking Lost). GoT was different and that's what attracted me to it originally.

It's going a little downhill. I understand the purists appreciate two seasons being dedicated to one book so as to have all the characters and events fleshed out, and I'd have no problem with this if not for the crucial detail that only 10 episodes come out every year. There just isn't any room for filler if they want to keep the show interesting.
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luxul
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:31 pm 
 

I agree about how much pointless filler there was (mainly with Shae, Catelyn and Talisa) in this last episode. Its almost like the show is devolving into a soap opera, and that really needs to stop. Too many one-on-one conversations with characters I don't give half a shit about. And it is pretty annoying how some characters (like Daenerys) don't even get any screen-time in an episode! Why?

Metantoine wrote:
Sad that they decided to cut Strong Belwas :(

Couldn't agree more. I would've liked to see that fat, scarred-up bastard on screen.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:01 am 
 

nasum wrote:
there's no books thread (or is there?).

Ya, mon. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34145
{x}
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Last edited by Grave_Wyrm on Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:40 am 
 

Despite the minor gripes I have with the show, I have to say one department it absolutely excels in is production and set design. All the sets and environments in GoT are fucking incredible. My kudos push and wriggle out toward those responsible.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:57 am 
 

Everything that could've been said about the new episode has already been stated, so I'll simply add that I also found it quite underwhelming. There were a few cool scenes (and I really appreciate Jaime being as clearly out of his game as he was during his fight with Brienne), but overall it was rather boring. I expect more from this show.
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Aurone
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:09 pm 
 

I felt this episode really picked up the how after 2 enjoyable but kind of letdown episodes. I'm honestly now interested in whreall of the stories are goin andthe ending....

Spoiler: show
Holy shit....Jayme losing his hand might not have been as impactfull os a major character dieing off, but it actually felt close.

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Messiah_X
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:59 pm 
 

I thought tonight's episode was the best so far this season, but still not without some flaws. For one, the absolutely essential "Sam the Slayer" scene is missing, and they're already back at Craster's. Now I could see them somehow doing this later (they DID find the dragonglass last season, why would they add that bit in if they were going to cut it?) but it just won't fit the same way. I suppose we'll see what happens. And then there was the completely unnecessary and overdone scene, which I hereby dub "Podrick Porne." Completely useless, contrived fanservice, and the followup scene when he returns the gold to Tyrion was confusing and went nowhere. And as usual, Ros. I don't mind her existence as she's served a couple purposes here and there, but I really hate her scene tonight. We get it, she's a whore. No need to show her bent over, smiling like an idiot when all she's doing is stacking up a pile of ledgers. And a minor quip here, but I thought The Bear and The Maiden Fair sounded far too "epic" for lack of a better word, and not the fun, whimsical song I always imagined it as. And why did they get some 90's pop punk band to play it for the ending credits? That was weird

Not much to say about Dany and Jon scenes. I thought they were adequate. Liked the Rhaegar bit, but it didn't really feel like it had the same magnitude as it did in the book. I suppose a big part of this is that the show doesn't really talk about Rhaegar, so we don't know much about the way Dany looks up to him as a Targaeryan hero. I don't know, it just didn't have the same effect, which I always felt was kind of Jorah's way of getting Dany's head out of the clouds and showing her the reality of the whole thing.

On the other hand, the rest of the episode was great. The beginning scene where Edmure misses his shots was great. Now I know the book handled this differently, even going so far as to say something along the lines of "it's no big deal if you miss the shot." I think that they really needed to introduce Edmure in such a way. Sure, the discord in the Tully family is much more subtle in the book, but at this late stage of the game, they need to drive these points home, and I really liked Edmure and Blackfish's (finally!) first scenes. The awkwardly tense small council scene with the chair dragging and Tyrion's new unwanted position was perfect. I REALLY like the Theon scenes, and it puts a grin on my face every time one of them comes up because I know where this is going.
Spoiler: show
Although they did away with Reek last season, they're essentially doing the same thing. As much as I like book Ramsay, I think I'm really going to enjoy show Ramsay as well. He has no misgivings about killing a few of his own men to make his sport more fulfilling. He's clearly making Theon trust him absolutely just so it will be an even bigger mindfuck when he turns out to be his torturer


Finally the ending. I have a few mixed feelings about this. Would have liked the "thaphireth" scene... but whatever. Vargo (so sorry, I mean LOCKE) was great even without the lisp, but why change him into a new character when he's essentially the same exact character? Still, I thought this scene worked out nicely, and of course that last scene totally ruled! I'm just gonna keep calling "Locke" Vargo, because that's who he is.

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Adriankat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:05 am 
 

I wish I watched this episode with people. It would've been great to see how people would react to Jaime losing his hand followed by an awesome Celtic punk rendition of "Bear and the Maiden Fair", haha.

I loved that episode. The Riverrun scenes were great, especially how they introduced Edmure Tully and the Blackfish.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:47 am 
 

Cross-posting from GAF:

Book purist checking in. And guess what... I liked the episode. I really did. The only bad parts to me were:

- Stannis. Book-Stannis is a teeth-grinding ass, but he's actually kinda cool in a way. And he has a sense of humour. Seriously, he pulls off some nice zingers at times. He's wry. TV-Stannis is just insufferable. I didn't mind the exposition that explained why they don't make another shadow baby, but I didn't like how they did it.
- Pod in the brothel. Gratuitous filler and boob quota BS. They can't help themselves, huh? Could have easily been cut and spend those precious minutes on more important matters. It was only mildly funny, too (and mostly because of the Meereenese knot joke).
- The end credits song. Wow, that was especially awful. WTF?? Way to ruin the atmosphere, idiots. What were they thinking?

The good? Pretty much everything else. And notice it mostly stayed true to the source material too... ^_^ Even the Talisa scene wasn't so bad, it was mildly funny and introduced to Martyn Lannister, [ASoS]
Spoiler: show
the poor boy's gonna get murdered by Lord Karstark soon. :(
The northmen singing the Bear and the Maiden Fair was a nice touch, I liked the medieval version (not the rock one ugh). I wish we had seen more Varys, but I was glad to see him again, if only for a little while. The smirk he had during that council meeting was priceless.

Nice to see Craster again. Somehow he's even less likeable than the book version, and that's saying a lot, hah. [ASoS]
Spoiler: show
I won't shed any tears when he eats it, oh no. Poor Jeor though... that really pissed me off in the book, possibly more than RW to be honest. :( I really liked the Old Bear. I'm guessing Rast will lead the mutiny, or at least that's what I took from that scene with Sam in the earlier episode.


The Dany scene rocked. Well directed. Missandei's adorable. And yay, the "Rhaegar died" line, thank you writers for keeping that in! That scene, along with Theon (I know where they're going with this, oh yes) and of course Jaime, were the highlights. Oh yeah, anyone noticed the budget increase? We finally see some horses, lol. XD
Oh yeah, I knew this wasn't gonna happen cause they cut Vargo and this Locke doesn't have a lisp, but I was still kinda sad to miss the "thapphireth" line. xD I guess it's one of those things that work better on paper and would be too goofy on TV... then again, that credits song sure was goofy, so go figure?

Nice to see a reference to the Iron Bank of Braavos. [ADWD]
Spoiler: show
I have a feeling that will become more important later, as we've seen the seeds of that in ADWD
.

Poor Edmure really got a lousy (faithful, but man poor dude) introduction, hah. Blackfish was a BAMF, really liked that casting.

Farewell, Hot Pie.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
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Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Derigin
Anthropophagus

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:54 am 
 

I thought that song was a joke. It was so bad.

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:23 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
- The end credits song. Wow, that was especially awful. WTF?? Way to ruin the atmosphere, idiots. What were they thinking?

This. Fucking goddamnit.

I liked how the Tullys wear scale mail. Very fishy.
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shouvince
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:11 am 
 

Yeah, having that song there was a terrible idea. It really caught me off guard. I liked the episode though. I haven't read the books but to see a shade of compassion in the Kingslayer was something I appreciated. Unfortunately, it led to that gruesome ending. Also, dammit, I want to see the grownup dragons and the white walkers! I understand, it's only just building up so I'm quite looking forward to the rest of the season.

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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:21 am 
 

That ending song was really out of left field. The song was partially annoying because it sounded like the Counting Crows, and they are just the worst 90's band. But on the other hand it added a hit of dark humour so I'm not hating it in retrospect. I'm personally just getting really tired of Jaime Lannister's escape story and now it's going to keep dragging on.
Morrigan wrote:
- Pod in the brothel. Gratuitous filler and boob quota BS. They can't help themselves, huh? Could have easily been cut and spend those precious minutes on more important matters. It was only mildly funny, too (and mostly because of the Meereenese knot joke)..
I really don't see what was so bad about that scene. It only went for 3 minutes, hardly anything to get ruffled up about.

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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:01 am 
 

That song did not work on any kind of level for me. Not as a straightforward thing, not in a darkly humorous way and not as a funny twist on 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair' (I didn't even notice that at first because I closed the video rather hastily during the credits). It was just silly and a retarded mood whiplash for the ending.

Otherwise a good episode. Well, except for the mindbendingly gratuitous, must-fulfill-boob-per-ep-quota Podrick scene. And the whole "teach me your moves, o Pod the Wise" thing afterwards. That served no purpose and was pretty embarrassing/weird to watch as well.
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Aurone
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:28 am 
 

Honestly, I kept expecting Podrick to reveal that he discovered some big secret from them or some other conspirital reason. And honestly, I think their might be something else still at work.

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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:48 am 
 

Hm, that might fit too. I really hope that was what they were going for.
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nasum
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:15 am 
 

Today's episode was quite good.

I liked that scene where Tyrion drags the chair around, it was so amusing and so Tyrion like.
And they made me laugh about Meerenese knot, it was cold, ironic laugh at someone making fun of fans waiting years for books to be released.
For everything else I agree with Morrigan.
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nasum wrote:
that is Rage Against The Machine, not metal.

It's probably his idea of metal. That Black Sabbath and Trouble stuff doesn't have enough gangsta giving the finger.

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KreatorOfAggression
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:28 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:37 pm 
 

Hey guys, please check my metal version of GoT opening theme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps-s46usSrw

Any constructive feedback from you will be most welcomed.
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Under_Starmere
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:34 pm 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
I liked how the Tullys wear scale mail. Very fishy.


Hehe, I thought the same thing. :thumbsup:

Yeah, this episode was definitely the best so far. More nuanced, better writing and directing. Plus it was nice to see some new locales in the form of Riverrun. The handchop was a brilliant surprise; too bad the mood was immediately ruined by the shit-hand credits track. :ugh:

Not being a book person I couldn't tell what was up with the Podrick fuckcircus one way or the other, but hopefully it'll actually have some relevance down the road. In any case, I do think they'd do well to chill out with the obligatory softcore, it just gets tiresome and smacks of exec meddling.

EDIT: Possibility for the Podrick deal: Baelish could be behind it, manipulating Pod into thinking the girls have a soft spot for him, so Pod goes back. As he starts to get emotionally attached and comfortable (in his soft-hearted innocence), he lowers his defenses and over time begins to give up information about Tyrion's dealings to the girls, who then inform to Baelish. Bamdy boom. Only thing is that if that actually does pan out, it'd be retarded to think that Tyrion wouldn't smell a rat from the very beginning.
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aaronmb666
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:07 am 
 

KreatorOfAggression wrote:
Hey guys, please check my metal version of GoT opening theme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps-s46usSrw

Any constructive feedback from you will be most welcomed.


cool. Kind of has an Amon Amarth feel to it.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:42 am 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
Not being a book person I couldn't tell what was up with the Podrick fuckcircus one way or the other, but hopefully it'll actually have some relevance down the road. In any case, I do think they'd do well to chill out with the obligatory softcore, it just gets tiresome and smacks of exec meddling.

The "execs", in this case, are David and Dan, they are the writers and directors of this episode. They have full creative control, so feel free to blame them.

Quote:
EDIT: Possibility for the Podrick deal: Baelish could be behind it, manipulating Pod into thinking the girls have a soft spot for him, so Pod goes back. As he starts to get emotionally attached and comfortable (in his soft-hearted innocence), he lowers his defenses and over time begins to give up information about Tyrion's dealings to the girls, who then inform to Baelish. Bamdy boom. Only thing is that if that actually does pan out, it'd be retarded to think that Tyrion wouldn't smell a rat from the very beginning.

Just FYI, that shit wasn't in the book at all. I think it was just gratuitous nudity personally.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:41 am 
 

I know, I gathered as much. Perhaps this is the optimistic me hoping that it might conceivably be of some actual use to the plot. :oh shit:

And in terms of the 'exec' bit, I do recall reading an article about there being direct involvement in the show by production heads whose entire job was to sexualize it as much as possible. So I don't really buy that all the control is in the writer/director's hands. It rarely is in any case. But if you need more reasons to fuel rage toward Benioff & Weiss, I won't stand in your way :). They deserve their fair share of drubbing.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:45 pm 
 

Just caught up on the season yesterday. Good enough to enjoy myself, not good enough to feel chuffed, exactly. Periodic amusement was had. Luckily Hinds is charismatic as hell, because those north-of-the-wall sequences are really getting shorted (typical). I liked the casting of Jojen, surprisingly. In reading I found him more haunted, but whatever .. the fellow's doing fine. His sister reminds me too much of Asha, but, again, whatever. Also, the more things progress, the more I'm enjoying the casting choice of Theon. Good to see Sandor. also, Arya's really bad.

sooo .. who's hotter? Jaime or Margaery? .. I'll wager it boils down to sexual preference, but as far as hard numbers go, I'm thinking it's a close race.


Question for the book-knowers:

Spoiler: show
What was with Theon's escape scene? Did I miss something? What I thought was going on: the writers are trying to get Ramsay's penchant for role-play, his sadism, and his passion for "hunting" into the story by making him the servant and showing up to kill the pursuit party. That's the best I could do because it was pretty confusing.

Also, lol at Selmy just walking up in Astapor and announcing himself. :lol:
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HellBlazer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:16 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
And in terms of the 'exec' bit, I do recall reading an article about there being direct involvement in the show by production heads whose entire job was to sexualize it as much as possible.


According to sources in the know, the only "execs" who would actually be on set to give instructions like that are Benioff and Weiss...

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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:27 pm 
 

Wouldn't the fuckcircus have been discussed ahead of the day of shooting? .. hopefully? Though, according to it's quality, it's more likely a last-minute decision. :/
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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:37 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
I know, I gathered as much. Perhaps this is the optimistic me hoping that it might conceivably be of some actual use to the plot. :oh shit:

The only use I see for it is to establish a sort of camaraderie between Tyrion and Pod. Which, well, isn't in the book exactly (their relationship is a bit different), but it uh, might serve later, I guess.

Quote:
And in terms of the 'exec' bit, I do recall reading an article about there being direct involvement in the show by production heads whose entire job was to sexualize it as much as possible. So I don't really buy that all the control is in the writer/director's hands. It rarely is in any case. But if you need more reasons to fuel rage toward Benioff & Weiss, I won't stand in your way :). They deserve their fair share of drubbing.

You're probably thinking of Neil Marshall, who directed Blackwater last season and who indeed had a co-exec on the set tell him to add nudity. D&D don't always write or direct (that episode was written by GRRM and directed by Marshall, for instance), but they are the only co-execs who have a presence on the sets, as HellBlazer said: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/to ... try3251548 (Ran is the owner of Westeros.org)
So since this 3rd episode was written and directed by D&D, I have no doubt they are 100% responsible for that stupid brothel scene.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Messiah_X
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:05 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
Question for the book-knowers:

Spoiler: show
What was with Theon's escape scene? Did I miss something? What I thought was going on: the writers are trying to get Ramsay's penchant for role-play, his sadism, and his passion for "hunting" into the story by making him the servant and showing up to kill the pursuit party. That's the best I could do because it was pretty confusing.


As the local Ramsay fanboy, I'll take this one :-D

Spoiler: show
They are essentially writing a new "Reek" plot to make up for the lack of Reek/Ramsay last season. So here's my take on it: Last season (off-screen) Ramsay torched Winterfell and killed all the Ironborn and Winterfell residents inside, including those who surrendered. He then took the unconscious Theon back to the Dreadfort and had his men torture him. So the torturer (I WANT to do THIS) was in fact working for Ramsay. Then Ramsay plays into Theon's need for some semblance of hope by freeing him. This is the beginning of an elaborate plot to break Theon's spirit. Keep in mind that Ramsay is an out-of-control sociopath, so I wouldn't put it past him to kill a few of his own men to make his game more convincing. I expect that the torturer did not know Ramsay's intentions, because that would make it less convincing. He is building up a high level of trust with Theon (as Reek did in A Clash of Kings by serving as a sort of advisor) in order to thoroughly crush him when the time comes to reveal himself. I like where this is going because not only do we get a similar plot to the Ramsay reveal of ACoK (which I thought was the best part of the book), but we get some of the backstory that was lost by cutting Theon out of 2 volumes.

So for my expectations on this season and next: This season will primarily focus on the re-written "Reek" story from ACoK. We will see Ramsay and Theon develop a bond with each other as he leads him on in one of his sick games. Possibly they will hold off on the Ramsay reveal (his true identity and the fact that he sacked Winterfell) until the RW in order to show House Bolton's betrayal of the Starks all at once. Next season, Theon's scenes will be a bit more sparse and show his transformation into the Reek creature, showing some of the torture and flaying scenes that took place. I expect the bit where Robb learns of Theon's captivity and subsequent torture will be omitted, and his fate will be ultimately unknown by the Starks until MUCH later (as in, parts of the series that have yet to be written).

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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:17 pm 
 

Ok, I'm a bit late, but I have to say this was the best episode of the season so far even if a useless sex scene was in it. Jaime's scene were really damn good and the Blackfish scene with Catelyn was one of her best of the whole series in my opinion. I also can't wait to see what they'll do with Theon as I don't really recall perfectly what he did in the book.

Uh yes, what Messiah wrote. Exactly that.
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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:30 pm 
 

@Morrigan I WILL blame them! :guns: Yeah, the incident you referred to was what I read (to be referred to henceforth as THE MARSHALL TESTIMONIAL), which to me seemed symptomatic of a larger studio push to sexualize the show in general. Just looking it up now I realize Benioff & Weiss are the producers as well as writers/directors (I had thought they were just the main writers/directors), so yeah, that makes sense. But it's not that I think there's a guy in a suit standing over their shoulder all the time, telling them "write another brothel scene, I strongly suggest and encourage that you do so," and that they're not writing things this way of their own volition, what I mean is that the entire production wing behind the show (Benioff/Weiss along with whatever decision-makers at HBO are approving things) are going out of their way to make sure that the show is deliberately sexualized. That this constant T&A nonsense is a "company decision," essentially, that includes Benioff & Weiss as its primary driving force. When I used the term "meddling" I wasn't necessarily implying that B & W's pure, uncorrupted vision was being twisted by evil HBO henchmen into an adolescent wank fantasy, I'm sure they're writing/directing the show in the way that's been agreed upon with HBO. I hope I'm being clear here. People who make shows don't create in a vacuum, they have to clear the material with the studio/channel that's paying them, and said studio/channel has a definite say in what flies and what doesn't, what kind of product they want under their brand. "Meddling" would refer to the changes that have been made to the original story from the beginning by this general executive influence, not late changes that have been made by The Higher-Ups against the writers/directors' will.
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in_human_form
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:14 am 
 

For anyone who's interested, this guy does some cool renditions of GoT songs, like The Bear and the Maiden Fair, The Last of the Giants, and The Rains of Castamere.

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Scorntyrant
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:46 am 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
@Morrigan I WILL blame them! :guns: Yeah, the incident you referred to was what I read (to be referred to henceforth as THE MARSHALL TESTIMONIAL), which to me seemed symptomatic of a larger studio push to sexualize the show in general. Just looking it up now I realize Benioff & Weiss are the producers as well as writers/directors (I had thought they were just the main writers/directors), so yeah, that makes sense. But it's not that I think there's a guy in a suit standing over their shoulder all the time, telling them "write another brothel scene, I strongly suggest and encourage that you do so," and that they're not writing things this way of their own volition, what I mean is that the entire production wing behind the show (Benioff/Weiss along with whatever decision-makers at HBO are approving things) are going out of their way to make sure that the show is deliberately sexualized. That this constant T&A nonsense is a "company decision," essentially, that includes Benioff & Weiss as its primary driving force. When I used the term "meddling" I wasn't necessarily implying that B & W's pure, uncorrupted vision was being twisted by evil HBO henchmen into an adolescent wank fantasy, I'm sure they're writing/directing the show in the way that's been agreed upon with HBO. I hope I'm being clear here. People who make shows don't create in a vacuum, they have to clear the material with the studio/channel that's paying them, and said studio/channel has a definite say in what flies and what doesn't, what kind of product they want under their brand. "Meddling" would refer to the changes that have been made to the original story from the beginning by this general executive influence, not late changes that have been made by The Higher-Ups against the writers/directors' will.


I don't have a problem with it to be honest. At it's heart its pulp - cleverly written, slickly produced pulp, but let's not "beat around the bush" (boom-tish) here. And, like all the great pulp fantasy escapism films of the 80's, it's better with a good helping of T&A. I dont usually watch tv at all - this is literally the only show I watch. So I'm not interested in the slightest about patterns of sexualisation and exploitation and blah blah blah. It's like bacon - not essential for most recipes, but I dont know anyone who complains if they find some in their dinner.
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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:38 am 
 

ASoIaF is so not pulp and it's certainly not the kind of fantasy that typically gets paired with the term "escapism" (or "adventure" etc).
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:06 pm 
 

Messiah_X wrote:
Grave_Wyrm wrote:
Question for the book-knowers:


As the local Ramsay fanboy, I'll take this one :-D

Spoiler: show
They are essentially writing a new "Reek" plot to make up for the lack of Reek/Ramsay last season. So here's my take on it: Last season (off-screen) Ramsay torched Winterfell and killed all the Ironborn and Winterfell residents inside, including those who surrendered. He then took the unconscious Theon back to the Dreadfort and had his men torture him. So the torturer (I WANT to do THIS) was in fact working for Ramsay. Then Ramsay plays into Theon's need for some semblance of hope by freeing him. This is the beginning of an elaborate plot to break Theon's spirit. Keep in mind that Ramsay is an out-of-control sociopath, so I wouldn't put it past him to kill a few of his own men to make his game more convincing. I expect that the torturer did not know Ramsay's intentions, because that would make it less convincing. He is building up a high level of trust with Theon (as Reek did in A Clash of Kings by serving as a sort of advisor) in order to thoroughly crush him when the time comes to reveal himself. I like where this is going because not only do we get a similar plot to the Ramsay reveal of ACoK (which I thought was the best part of the book), but we get some of the backstory that was lost by cutting Theon out of 2 volumes.

So for my expectations on this season and next: This season will primarily focus on the re-written "Reek" story from ACoK. We will see Ramsay and Theon develop a bond with each other as he leads him on in one of his sick games. Possibly they will hold off on the Ramsay reveal (his true identity and the fact that he sacked Winterfell) until the RW in order to show House Bolton's betrayal of the Starks all at once. Next season, Theon's scenes will be a bit more sparse and show his transformation into the Reek creature, showing some of the torture and flaying scenes that took place. I expect the bit where Robb learns of Theon's captivity and subsequent torture will be omitted, and his fate will be ultimately unknown by the Starks until MUCH later (as in, parts of the series that have yet to be written).

:beer:
More below:
Spoiler: show
Was the archer the same actor as the servant "sent by his sister", or was that a different actor? They looked similar, but I couldn't tell.

That's well said. It seems feasible, too, considering the show's style of tangents somehow managing to hit the moving target of actual plot points. I think the only difficulty I see with the theory is that when Reek was Theon's wise hatchet man (which was really sick to think back on), Theon maintained some meager power while he held Winterfell; he had objectives. He doesn't have anything now, and I don't have faith that the writing will be good enough to carry off your (preferable) scenario. Considering the Selmy introduction, it's disappointingly possible Ramsay will introduce himself as Reek, have to hide Theon, so they land up at Hot Pie's place (where we'll get a clumsy Dondarrion intro), Bolton's search party finds them, Ramsay does his best Moriarty impression, and they're back at the Dread Fort to get on with the flaying.

I guess it's possible things could be moved along quickly enough for Theon to be presented at the RW for a gift as the stinking thing in the corner. I wouldn't mind that.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:28 pm 
 

Scorntyrant wrote:
It's like bacon - not essential for most recipes, but I dont know anyone who complains if they find some in their dinner.

My only problem with it is that it wastes screen time. To go with the bacon analogy, the meat was every meager second of Mance and Mormont, and the empty calories of fat is Poonmaster Podrick. :ugh:

Starmere, I liked the image of the man in the suit. A kind of HBO censor who makes sure that sex is included.
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Messiah_X
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:37 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
:beer:
More below:
Spoiler: show
Was the archer the same actor as the servant "sent by his sister", or was that a different actor? They looked similar, but I couldn't tell.

That's well said. It seems feasible, too, considering the show's style of tangents somehow managing to hit the moving target of actual plot points. I think the only difficulty I see with the theory is that when Reek was Theon's wise hatchet man (which was really sick to think back on), Theon maintained some meager power while he held Winterfell; he had objectives. He doesn't have anything now, and I don't have faith that the writing will be good enough to carry off your (preferable) scenario. Considering the Selmy introduction, it's disappointingly possible Ramsay will introduce himself as Reek, have to hide Theon, so they land up at Hot Pie's place (where we'll get a clumsy Dondarrion intro), Bolton's search party finds them, Ramsay does his best Moriarty impression, and they're back at the Dread Fort to get on with the flaying.

I guess it's possible things could be moved along quickly enough for Theon to be presented at the RW for a gift as the stinking thing in the corner. I wouldn't mind that.


Spoiler: show
First off, yes, it was the same actor, Iwan Rheon. Secondly, I wouldn't say Theon has no objective now. He failed to hold Winterfell, sure, but now he has found himself in quite the mindfuck of a situation. The last thing he remembers is being knocked out by one of his own men. After that he wakes up "somewhere" being tortured by "someone" (which we readers will recognize, but look at it through Theon's eyes, or non-readers for that matter) and his objective now is to survive this and run back to his daddy, tail between his legs. Only Ramsay isn't going to let that happen. I do think this plot will stay in the north and they won't run into Hot Pie, Dondarrion, or even Roose. From the preview for next week, it seemed that Ramsay was leading Theon to a fort where Asha (Yara) is held up. Now I've heard theories that this could be the Moat Cailin plot coming up early, but I'm trying to think outside the book so to speak. I think Ramsay is leading Theon on a wild goose chase and befriending him the same way he did as Reek, but in a brand new context. In the preview Theon says something like "why don't we just walk in there and meet my sister?" To which Ramsay replies "Because those are not all your sister's men." Who knows what that means? An elaborate trap set by Ramsay before the escape? A private dungeon for Ramsay to brutally torture Theon? Or maybe (I don't know exactly how this would work) Asha actually IS there, with some Bolton men intertwined in her ranks. Obviously in the last scenario Asha would see her brother is still alive, but be forced to escape and unable to save him. If they wait until the RW to do the reveal, I don't think it will end up with Roose and Ramsay in the same place. I think that plot will happen simultaneous to the RW, as the writers have done many times before. The RW will take place as we all know it will. Meanwhile, back in the north, Ramsay will reveal himself as Roose's bastard, also revealing that it was he who sacked Winterfell last season. I think they will save the actual Reek transformation and hardcore torture scenes for next season as that would fill a second necessary plot, and by season 5 we can start seeing the ADWD Theon chapters (since they will almost certainly be showing AFFC and ADWD simultaneously to keep the timeline straight and keep all the actors employed).

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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:10 pm 
 

Looks like the next episode is going to be mostly filler, and Jamie Lanister will be skipped over until the following week.
I think there are too many sections being told in each episode, as it stands it's about 4 to 5, when ideally it should to 3.
It should be about the two houses, and Khaleesi. As far as I'm concerned they should scrap Theon Greyjoy and Stannis
Baratheon and the show would be much more enjoyable.
Grave_Wyrm wrote:
Scorntyrant wrote:
It's like bacon - not essential for most recipes, but I dont know anyone who complains if they find some in their dinner.

This guy gets it.

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Messiah_X
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:21 pm 
 

volutetheswarth wrote:
Looks like the next episode is going to be mostly filler, and Jamie Lanister will be skipped over until the following week.
I think there are too many sections being told in each episode, as it stands it's about 4 to 5, when ideally it should to 3.
It should be about the two houses, and Khaleesi. As far as I'm concerned they should scrap Theon Greyjoy and Stannis
Baratheon and the show would be much more enjoyable.


:nono: If you only knew...

Next week looks like it will have a couple of the most integral scenes of the season. Keep in mind, the writers are stuck with the astronomical task of paraphrasing huge volumes of work, selecting the most essential parts, and cramming them into 10 episodes per season. The devil is in the details as they say, which is why this show attracts so many purists who disapprove of the changes. I agree with the purists many times when the writers fill the gratuitous sex quota instead of throwing in a minor detail here and there for a bigger payoff later. That said, the other houses are NOT minor details. Martin may be the type of writer to write overlong books and stretch things out, but he is definitely NOT one to include something that isn't necessary to the plot. There is actually very little filler outside of some excessive chapters in AFFC and ADWD. What you're essentially asking for here is Lord of the Rings without Aragorn, because the story is mainly about Frodo.

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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:54 pm 
 

I'm calling it like I see it. Perhaps those stories are leading to something special but for now they are extra baggage and complicating an otherwise entertaining show. Less is definitely more, that's why season 1 was so enticing and addictive. Additionally, if there were less sections being told we might actually get to see those demanding battles that have only been spoken about thus far.

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