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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:18 pm 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
Can you play in 43¾/32?


On a tangential point, I never understood this sort of argument in something's case. "You can't play like [technical band, that's what they usually are] does! Now, considering all the bands that I do like, why would I want to play like one I don't like?
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this jewel of music,which honestly made me sit on my ass.


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Xlxlx
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 5611
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:23 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Meshuggah makes use of really interesting polyrhythms between not just the drummer's limbs, but between the different members of the band as well. Plus their stuff, while still being pretty friggin complex from a time signature standpoint, is really catchy too.

I'm fairly sure that our definitions of "interesting" and "catchy" are wildly different, Subrick. So far, the only Meshuggah album I've been able to derive any enjoyment from is their debut, which is significantly different from their latter output.
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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2362
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:26 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:
MutantClannfear wrote:
Can you play in 43¾/32?

On a tangential point, I never understood this sort of argument in something's case. "You can't play like [technical band, that's what they usually are] does! Now, considering all the bands that I do like, why would I want to play like one I don't like?

It's just a method of shutting down debate once a person knows they're losing footing, by insinuating that having an opinion requires being able to create something of equal or greater quality, skill, talent, etc. to the object of criticism. They're probably aware to some extent that it's really shaky logic.

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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:34 pm 
 

It's in the same boat of shitty arguments as "Well why don't YOU make a better song?".
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2450
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:36 pm 
 

Djent?



Meshuggah used to be interesting when actually mixed the chugs with some real metal stuff. Destroy, Erase, Improve is the last good work of them; Chaosphere onwards it has been the same song, the same album over and over. They wrote the Cyanide Christ song and used the same template to death.
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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:42 pm 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
On a tangential point, I never understood this sort of argument in something's case. "You can't play like [technical band, that's what they usually are] does! Now, considering all the bands that I do like, why would I want to play like one I don't like?

It's just a method of shutting down debate once a person knows they're losing footing, by insinuating that having an opinion requires being able to create something of equal or greater quality, skill, talent, etc. to the object of criticism. They're probably aware to some extent that it's really shaky logic.

Except that nobody has really brought that here in Meshuggah or Periphery's defense, while the "it's shitty chugging" argumentation is hardly sophisticated... to say the least. Both bands definitely know quite a bit about songwriting, and I'd say Periphery is the better of the two in this department. (Meshuggah does sometimes make stuff overlong, Periphery hardly ever fails to make songs catchy despite being pretty damn complex)
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:05 pm 
 

I was parodying Meshuggah apologists in general, not anybody in this particular discussion. Stop thinking everything is about you. Also, your point is hardly more "sophisticated" than the detractors - you're basically saying "it's good it's good it's good" over and over in the same way the other guys are saying "it's shit it's shit it's shit". I don't see you making some sort of djent thesis.

If it makes you feel any better, I like Meshuggah, I just think their fanbase is mostly a bunch of guitar nerds who like metal music because it's "basically classical music but with guitars" (or some similar bit of pretentious drivel they always use to validate metal to their friends and family).

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TheRealThing
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:57 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:05 pm 
 

I'm pleasantly surprised that a Djent debate hasn't turned into a yelling match yet-again.

My biggest complaint with Djent, aside from the lack of creativity in the "scene," is the production. Glossy, hyper-compressed mix, gross digital distortion, drums that sound like drum machines (when it doesn't work with the music), and bass that can only be heard when they do some cheesy pop or slap.
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Subrick
Metal freak

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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:11 pm 
 

Yeah, the production does generally stink when it comes to djent. It's everything I dislike in rock and metal production rolled into one package. Doesn't help that because of this, as well as the music just not being very good, almost no djent band has its own identity.
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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:14 pm 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
I was parodying Meshuggah apologists in general, not anybody in this particular discussion. Stop thinking everything is about you. Also, your point is hardly more "sophisticated" than the detractors - you're basically saying "it's good it's good it's good" over and over in the same way the other guys are saying "it's shit it's shit it's shit". I don't see you making some sort of djent thesis.

If it makes you feel any better, I like Meshuggah, I just think their fanbase is mostly a bunch of guitar nerds who like metal music because it's "basically classical music but with guitars" (or some similar bit of pretentious drivel they always use to validate metal to their friends and family).

What was the point of doing that if nobody had said it anyway? Well, I've already pointed out that some of you are using the "chugging" term far too loosely, I've also said they manage to combine technical complexity with catchiness. I can say more if you like, it just seemed that nobody is that interested until this point.

I'm not really sure about Meshuggah's fanbase, as I haven't directly encountered too many of them, mostly people being into progmetal and also enjoying Meshuggah. Personally I like their style and love the fact that they came up with something completely new, showing people that rhythmic experiments can also sound cool (which influenced bands ranging from Porcupine Tree to death metal). Although their sound is generally quite dry and it's something I really need to be in the mood for. Unlike Periphery, who for me are just lots of fun to listen to, as I enjoy their mix of down-tuned, occasionally chuggy riffing, melodic leads, and pretty powerful vocals (which are a bit inconsistent on P1, but on P2 they're fucking awesome).

While from what I heard some djent bands do actually sound pretty predictable, I'd say Periphery is definitely one of the most inventive (well, also one of the first). Already the progress they made between the first and second album is pretty big, and they're far from just being a band with a constantly repeated formula.
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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:48 pm 
 

We got the photos back from the show we did on the 6th in Rhode Island. I didn't realize just how many people were in the crowd until I saw this photo.

Image

Stuff like this makes it worth it to me, playing live.
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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:09 am 
 

Djent, in general, sucks but I did like The Contortionist-Intrinsic which is djenty (arrrrghhh... what a horrible word) as hell despite what their page here says.
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Marag
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:47 am 
 

Sitting through a Meshuggah album, even the earliest ones, always gives me a headache. Regardless, I still can't understand how this djent thing came to be. I mean, since when Meshuggah got so popular? Back when I first heard them, it was around the time of Catch Thirtythree or whatever it's called, only a few people gave a shit about them, and now there is a whole genre based on worshiping them, what the fuck.

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volutetheswarth
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:04 am 
 

They released music that was more appealing to mainstream audiences; obZen. Plus more exposure with music videos and advertising. I personally never gave a shit about them and thought their music was garbage until I heard that album. I think I heard some boring arse early song that was an overly downtuned mess that was supposedly 'ultra brutal', not something that even remotely interested me, plus their name was hard to remember and nobody knew how to say it correctly.

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Trashy_Rambo
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:04 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:07 am 
 

So I randomly downloaded "Into The Labyrinth" by Dead Can Dance a while ago, and I completely fell in love with it. The question is, where do I go from there?
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xThe__Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:59 pm
Posts: 845
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:38 am 
 

Subrick wrote:

Stuff like this makes it worth it to me, playing live.


Dang that is a good crowd. I feel ya on that. Getting a crowd that responds to you and enjoys what you do is the best feeling in the world. I can only hope half as much people when my band goes on tour.
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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Location: Québec
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:12 am 
 

I don't usually want to post my stuff here but I went to an awesome free musical event today and feel like sharing my thoughts with you guys. Free beer, great music and pretty hipster chicks!
http://metantoinemagicalrealm.blogspot. ... n-run.html
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Nochielo
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:20 am
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Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:15 am 
 

You had me at pretty hipster chicks.
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TheExodusAttack
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 4:16 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:30 am 
 

To me, the most interesting part of the djent trend is that the barriers of entry are simultaneously extremely low and high. Low because it's THE BIG NEW THING so everyone and their grandma is doing it (both new bands and old established ones), yet also high because it takes a lot of skill, proficiency and musical know-how to pull off (i.e. djent exists largely in the realm of home-recording, guitar gear-obsessed, prog metal-blogging nerds). I like it a lot though, and generally prefer the new bands to Meshuggah and A Life Once Lost or whatever. Those bands are still cool but the songwriting leaves a lot to be desired at times.

Here's some cool bands I don't really see anyone mention.

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No, they are not djent. Djent is deathcore meets Meshuggah ripoff, ie shit. Don't you dare use such blasphemous words to describe Meshuggah.
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CrushedRevelation
Devil's right hand

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:47 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:49 am 
 

Trashy_Rambo wrote:
So I randomly downloaded "Into The Labyrinth" by Dead Can Dance a while ago, and I completely fell in love with it. The question is, where do I go from there?


Well. I can only name the albums you must hear - simply naming songs from albums would be irresponsible, as you should explore the albums I will mention in greater depth and detail. Ready?

Aion
Toward The Within (stunning live album)
Within The Realm of A Dying Sun
The Serpent's Egg
Spleen And Ideal, and
Anastasis

If you like some strange, Goth inspired, raw weirdness (in my opinion), then check out the debut, but the ones I listed are all absolutely essential listening.
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along the Rhine
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:51 am 
 

^ This, so much. I'd personally like to recommend Spleen And Ideal and The Serpent's Egg. Just based on personal preference. Haven't checked out their later stuff tho.

Wilytank wrote:
That's just about on the same rung of the "neanderthal dipshit" ladder as "Break Shit" by Attila.

Quote:
Break shit
Fuck the law
Fuck this shit
Punch that bitch
Break shit
Fuck the law
Fuck it


The word "fuck" and its variants are said TWENTY SIX TIMES throughout the song's 3:08 runtime. There are only two verses where the word doesn't appear.

To be fair, that's hilarious.
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Trashy_Rambo
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:04 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:58 am 
 

CrushedRevelation wrote:
Trashy_Rambo wrote:
So I randomly downloaded "Into The Labyrinth" by Dead Can Dance a while ago, and I completely fell in love with it. The question is, where do I go from there?


Well. I can only name the albums you must hear - simply naming songs from albums would be irresponsible, as you should explore the albums I will mention in greater depth and detail. Ready?

Aion
Toward The Within (stunning live album)
Within The Realm of A Dying Sun
The Serpent's Egg
Spleen And Ideal, and
Anastasis

If you like some strange, Goth inspired, raw weirdness (in my opinion), then check out the debut, but the ones I listed are all absolutely essential listening.


I'll start with those, but I might just end up downloading their whole discography! I downloaded "Spiritchaser" hoping it would be somewhat in the same vein, but was rather disappointed in that regard. I'll report back when I've properly digested a couple more of them!
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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:10 am 
 

Trashy_Rambo wrote:
So I randomly downloaded "Into The Labyrinth" by Dead Can Dance a while ago, and I completely fell in love with it. The question is, where do I go from there?

Good man. Check "Within the Realm of a Dying Sun", it's a grand record, though a bit of a different beast than ItL, very dark and atmospheric throughout.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:55 am 
 

Acrobat to any Dutch metalheads... Acrobat to any Dutch metalheads!

Given my extensive reserves of loot and poor decision-making skills, I will be in Amsterdam from the 25th to the 30th or so. So, if any of you cunts would like to hang out or - better still - provide me with some form of shelter from the harsh Dutch summer I would be eternally grateful. Let me know by PM if you're interested in having a bad time with a truly terrible person.
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henkkjelle
Veteran

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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:43 am 
 

I would offer you a place to stay if I actually had my own place to stay.
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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:44 am 
 

Subrick wrote:
We got the photos back from the show we did on the 6th in Rhode Island. I didn't realize just how many people were in the crowd until I saw this photo.

Spoiler: show
Image


Stuff like this makes it worth it to me, playing live.

This looks really cool. :) I can imagine that this is by far the coolest part about playing live, even though it's certainly not easy.

TheExodusAttack wrote:
To me, the most interesting part of the djent trend is that the barriers of entry are simultaneously extremely low and high. Low because it's THE BIG NEW THING so everyone and their grandma is doing it (both new bands and old established ones), yet also high because it takes a lot of skill, proficiency and musical know-how to pull off (i.e. djent exists largely in the realm of home-recording, guitar gear-obsessed, prog metal-blogging nerds). I like it a lot though, and generally prefer the new bands to Meshuggah and A Life Once Lost or whatever. Those bands are still cool but the songwriting leaves a lot to be desired at times.

Here's some cool bands I don't really see anyone mention.
Spoiler: show


I've never really been sure about the "big new thing" part, djent seems to have got quite a lot of attention, but basically besides the two most known bands which are Periphery and Animals as Leaders (+ Meshuggah if we count them here), I don't hear that much about it. In fact I hear more about people complaining about how popular it is than actual popularity. :P

I'll check out the songs later too, thanks.
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Napero
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:37 am 
 

DeathRiderDoom is out on the town for his last day in Finland, and the poor fellow is like a U-boat in a target rich environment, with an unspent bacon torpedo, and running out of time and fuel in the middle of a convoy of cargo ships laden with The Goods. You can see the pain the bugger is going through, and I'm pretty confident that Europe should already start preparing itself for his return.

I'll fry him some local fish with mashed potatoes, and give him a few beers in the sauna, I think. I'll also make sure he won't leave the country sober tomorrow.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:42 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
I would offer you a place to stay if I actually had my own place to stay.


That's alright, just tell your mother to put on something nice.
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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:55 am 
 

Hutspot is all you will get.

Image
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:04 am 
 

With the way I look, I'd be lucky to get that.
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Calusari
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:36 am
Posts: 708
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:11 am 
 

CrushedRevelation wrote:
Trashy_Rambo wrote:
So I randomly downloaded "Into The Labyrinth" by Dead Can Dance a while ago, and I completely fell in love with it. The question is, where do I go from there?


Well. I can only name the albums you must hear - simply naming songs from albums would be irresponsible, as you should explore the albums I will mention in greater depth and detail. Ready?

Aion
Toward The Within (stunning live album)
Within The Realm of A Dying Sun
The Serpent's Egg
Spleen And Ideal, and
Anastasis

If you like some strange, Goth inspired, raw weirdness (in my opinion), then check out the debut, but the ones I listed are all absolutely essential listening.


Good recommendations; it really is hard to narrow down a determinate place to start with DCD - their albums tend to be glorious, cohesive works that need to be absorbed on their own terms, so, yeah, individual songs cannot be picked out, really; I'd second Serpent's Egg and Within the Realm especially. I saw them live for the first time earlier this year, and, of course, it was truly, transcendently breathtaking; one of the most incredible live performances I've ever seen. I had chills for most of the gig; I don't often react so immediately, physically to music. Truly recommended; if you can ever see them, try to - it's worth it, regardless of how well you know their music.

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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Location: Orocarni
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:59 am 
 

Do Serpent's Egg next, if only for the first song. That ending is just spectacular. If you don't mind more drums and some electronics you may enjoy two other groups, Vas and its successor Niyaz. Vas was often called a "middle eastern Dead Can Dance." Niyaz has the same vocalist and percussionist I believe.

In my opinion Azam Ali (Vas/Niyaz) is a better singer than Lisa Gerrard, for whatever that's worth. Or at least, if not technically better, I prefer her voice.

I present this as evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwdgNCZta_Y (most of their stuff is way more upbeat than this....as in actually having a beat)
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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:00 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
It's in the same boat of shitty arguments as "Well why don't YOU make a better song?".

You don't have to be a chef to know the food you're eating tastes like shit.

As for Animals As Leaders, they are an atrocious band. They bring absolutely nothing special to the table and can't write a riff to save their lives.
If I wanted to hear a shitty guitarist do fast stuff, I'd listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2EGKt8yONI
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HellishHound
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:37 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:10 pm 
 

I haven't seen anyone else talking about this so hopefully I can be the one to delive the news for once: Panopticon and Falls of Rauros are releasing a split! 4 new tracks from Panopticon and 2 from FoR. Really excited about panopticon is awesome and I just got into Falls of Rauros. Here's the link: http://fallsofrauros.blogspot.com/2013/ ... p.html?m=1
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Dragunov
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:16 pm 
 

Tosin Abasi is definitely not a shitty guitar player. I find his use of different chord voicings in his playing to be very interesting, and adds a lot of flavor to his music. I don't like his stuff with Animals As Leaders much at all, though.
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BastardHead
Magic Mike

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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Location: Oswego, Illinois
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:06 pm 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
[Animals as Leaders] can't write a riff to save their lives.


I'm not a fan of AaL, but this argument drives me up the wall. It's like complaining about there not being enough atmosphere in any given Running Wild song. Who gives a shit? That's not the point of the music. You think they suck at what they do? Absolutely, fair enough. You think they suck at something they're not doing? Well that's a stupid thing to dislike them for.
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TheLiberation
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:13 pm 
 

For me generally the "this has no riffs" thing is fucking annoying, as it's utterly void of meaning (we had a thread recently about "what actually is a riff" and there was literally no direct answer) and carries totally zero argumentation.

But anyway, Animals As Leaders is something I must check out, as I've heard about them a lot but never really listened to them.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:04 pm 
 

If someone says something "has no riffs," they almost certainly don't mean it literally has no riffs, just that it has no good riffs. Not everyone is looking to make "argumentation" when they're voicing an opinion. This isn't rocket science.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:13 pm 
 

I remember hearing an AAL song or two way back and enjoying it. It's pretty substanceless, but had a kind of cool futuristic-like atmosphere to it. Not bad. Not something I'd listen to that often, but eh. Wouldn't call Abasi a shitty player at all. Unless the stuff I heard was radically different in some way, he's perfectly fine.

As for the riffs argument, plenty of stuff I like gets routinely criticized for not having riffs and I can see it, sure. If people are in the mood for heavy music, for metal specifically, they want a certain sound...I like plenty of stuff by once-metal or marginally-metal bands that isn't based on metal riffs and I've basically stopped getting pissy about it with people. Makes life easier.
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TheLiberation
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:22 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
If someone says something "has no riffs," they almost certainly don't mean it literally has no riffs, just that it has no good riffs. Not everyone is looking to make "argumentation" when they're voicing an opinion. This isn't rocket science.

Then just say the riffs are bad. The reason why this bothers me so much is that it really sounds like an attempt at instantly dismissing a song/album/band as worthless (in terms of heavier music), while offering absolutely zero reasoning why. It's pretty much the rock/metal equivalent of "ur mom is fat lol". It's stupid, it's pointless, it's annoying, and completely void of meaning. I'd rather hear "this sucks", at least this is 100% personal opinion and doesn't reek of "know-it-all" attitude.
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