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Burnyoursins
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:52 am 
 

Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
To put it into perspective my buddy is a truck driver in Minnesota and he only makes $11.50 an hour and our federal minimum wage is I think $8.25 an hour or something close to that with the potential for individual states to have it be higher.


Just a sign of the economy down there, I guess. Are we talking semi-trucks, or just one tonnes? 'Cause unless he's out driving semi's, I wouldn't exactly call that "skilled" labour. All you need is a class-5 license to drive a one tonne. Regardless, I still would disagree with forgoing minimum wage. It won't raise the wages for skilled labour if it was abolished, it'd just make life down there more miserable. People working at Walmart aren't exactly raking in the big bucks and living comfortably.
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Erosion of Humanity
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:54 am 
 

No I'm talking about a semi, he works on a farm, and I don't think that we should outright abolish minimum wage. All I'm saying is that if the gap between skilled and unskilled labor keeps closing then we will run into problems. And I realize that that is just one part of the country because say here in Chicago land we have unions and what not to look out for us, though the difference in pay between union and non union labor here can be more than an up front $10 an hour not including benefits.
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GTog
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Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:56 am 
 

So... the argument against the minimum wage is that it makes unskilled labor closer in value to skilled labor? How does that work exactly? If I'm managing a factory and I need to hire someone to operate some machinery, I'm looking at job applications to see who knows how to run machinery. Not at who made close to the same amount of money working at McDonald's. To me, unskilled labor is not approximately as valuable, it is worthless.

Are people really going to forego learning a skill because hey, an unskilled job is 75% as good in the pay department and requires less effort? That's like regarding a C on an exam as essentially the same thing as an A because they're both passing grades.

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orionmetalhead
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:54 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:46 pm 
 

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/t ... z2HVdriWzj

I think this sums up the principled reasons why many are against a minimum wage.
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FearTheNome
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:30 pm 
 

Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
No I'm talking about a semi, he works on a farm, and I don't think that we should outright abolish minimum wage. All I'm saying is that if the gap between skilled and unskilled labor keeps closing then we will run into problems. And I realize that that is just one part of the country because say here in Chicago land we have unions and what not to look out for us, though the difference in pay between union and non union labor here can be more than an up front $10 an hour not including benefits.


The minimum wage isn't going up. It's lower in real terms than it's been in decades, because it's not keeping pace with inflation. The gap is closing because wages for skilled workers are going down too because of the weak job market -- so many professionals are un- or under-employed that they'll work for far less than they would have in 2007. Everyone except those at the very tippy top is hurting. And those people at the top? They're making a killing.

We need to fix our economy, not squeeze the very poor even more.

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In
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:41 pm
Posts: 208
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:20 pm 
 

FearTheNome wrote:
Erosion Of Humanity wrote:
No I'm talking about a semi, he works on a farm, and I don't think that we should outright abolish minimum wage. All I'm saying is that if the gap between skilled and unskilled labor keeps closing then we will run into problems. And I realize that that is just one part of the country because say here in Chicago land we have unions and what not to look out for us, though the difference in pay between union and non union labor here can be more than an up front $10 an hour not including benefits.


The minimum wage isn't going up. It's lower in real terms than it's been in decades, because it's not keeping pace with inflation. The gap is closing because wages for skilled workers are going down too because of the weak job market -- so many professionals are un- or under-employed that they'll work for far less than they would have in 2007. Everyone except those at the very tippy top is hurting. And those people at the top? They're making a killing.

We need to fix our economy, not squeeze the very poor even more.

And how do you propose we fix our economy?

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:07 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-fallacy-of-the-minimum-wage#axzz2HVdriWzj

I think this sums up the principled reasons why many are against a minimum wage.


And since that article is fear-mongering from a notorious retard written in 1960, I guess we have now established there are no valid reasons not to have a minimum wage.
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In
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:41 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:09 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
orionmetalhead wrote:
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-fallacy-of-the-minimum-wage#axzz2HVdriWzj

I think this sums up the principled reasons why many are against a minimum wage.


And since that article is fear-mongering from a notorious retard written in 1960, I guess we have now established there are no valid reasons not to have a minimum wage.

OK then, why should we have a minimum wage?

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oogboog
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Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:09 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:20 pm 
 

In wrote:
OK then, why should we have a minimum wage?

Do you want big companies ripping off workers by paying them so low? Then the workers would have so little money to support themselves or any family members.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:25 pm 
 

In wrote:
OK then, why should we have a minimum wage?


Because no one should have to work for peanuts?

Especially in this day and time we need a minimum wage more than ever. The process is not perfect but it's not only leverage for workers. It makes the market run smoother and avoids a lot of crisis.
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:27 pm 
 

During the industrial revolution workers were paid so low many of them needed to work up to 14 hours a day to prevent starvation of their families.
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In
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:41 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:56 pm 
 

oogboog wrote:
Do you want big companies ripping off workers by paying them so low? Then the workers would have so little money to support themselves or any family members.

If companies were paying workers ridiculously low wages, then they would be snatched up by competitors who would be willing to pay them more. The reason why 90% of jobs pay more than the minimum is because competition forces them to. Also, consider this: Wal-Mart wants to raise the minimum wage. Why is that? Why is it that an evil corporation wants to help out the people by raising the minimum wage? Well, there's a reason. Wal-Mart pays slightly above the minimum wage. If the minimum wage is raised, then they'll be able to price all of their smaller competitors out of business because they won't be able to afford to pay their employees the higher minimum wage. John Stossel explains this better than I can.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:48 pm 
 

In wrote:
oogboog wrote:
Do you want big companies ripping off workers by paying them so low? Then the workers would have so little money to support themselves or any family members.

If companies were paying workers ridiculously low wages, then they would be snatched up by competitors who would be willing to pay them more.


Yeah, well history has shown it doesn't work that way.

Also, campaigning for the abolition of minimum wage in this day and age is fucking nuts, asinine and borderline criminal, period.

As if we didn't already have enough nocive mergers and collusion already! Now you want to give big businesses yet another reason to buy each other and make shady deals?
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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Erosion of Humanity
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
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Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:54 pm 
 

Minimum wage is a catch 22 if we have to keep paying our workers more and more all the time then prices will continue to rise and when they go up it will be just as it was before. In my eyes (the eyes of a simple laborer) there is no solution in which we the people don't end up paying the consequences for governmental and fat cat greed. One solution I say as possibly working is to modify minimum wages and make them job specific but that would never work because nobody wants to spend the time on such an enormous task. Another possible solution would be to lower the cost of living but we all know that'll never happen. And @ Inhumanist I don't know what kind of job you have but at my job everyday is 12 hours or more.
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Last edited by Erosion of Humanity on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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In
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:41 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:56 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:

Yeah, well history has shown it doesn't work that way.

Also, campaigning for the abolition of minimum wage in this day and age is fucking nuts, asinine and borderline criminal, period.

As if we didn't already have enough nocive mergers and collusion already! Now you want to give big businesses yet another reason to buy each other and make shady deals?

You've proven that you're economically illiterate, so I'm not even going to bother debating this with you.

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Metantoine
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:58 pm 
 

You've just proven that you're an hypocrite considering your post here: viewtopic.php?f=3&p=2197074#p2197074

I agree with everything Riffs said before you ask.
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Riffs
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:07 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
You've just proven that you're an hypocrite considering your post here: viewtopic.php?f=3&p=2197074#p2197074


He can't even buy a fucking CD and I am the one who is economically illiterate? :lol:

Hey, In, I'll give you 15 bucks a month for my housecleaning! That should buy you an album and it sounds fair to me!
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:10 pm 
 

Can I do it instead? :-D I need some cash!
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oogboog
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:19 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
Can I do it instead? :-D I need some cash!

Tony, you're over 18, I think someone else would benefit more. Free cookies to whoever I'm thinking of.

Riffs wrote:
Yeah, well history has shown it doesn't work that way.

This is true, as many companies are employing people who are willing to work for any money. This would take jobs away from us Americans, who are suffering a recession right now, and drag us down to hell.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:26 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
Can I do it instead? :-D I need some cash!


It's a totally free market! And remember! If some other asshole is ready to give you 16$ a month, I expect you to jump ship and greatly improve your living standards! :-D

Over time, thanks to "competitors" you'll be able to buy a double album each month if you find a sucker willing to give you that much!
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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Unifying_Disorder
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:05 am 
 

The problem with minimum wage is that every time it's raised, it prices certain people out of the job market. Not are there only jobs that won't be created because of rising costs, but certain positions become more untenable for the business owner.

For example, it used to be common to have people who would pump your gas for you, or usher at a movie theater and check your ticket. Those jobs are almost totally gone now because it isn't worth paying them the mandated amount for the work they do. Those positions help teenagers get started in the work force, give retired people something to do, or supplement a part time job with a second non-demanding job

It's win-win. They get some money in their pocket and something to do, and you get a service that makes your life just a little bit easier.
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orionmetalhead
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:23 am 
 

Without a minimum wage, I expect that you would find a lot more help at retail stores, as most retailers would be able to hire additional workers at lower costs. I also very much doubt that there would be a decrease in productivity. Also we would see a lot more industry return to the USA as the wages would be lower and companies would be less likely to export jobs to overseas countries where a minimum wage does not exist to the expense we have it here.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:36 am 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
Without a minimum wage, I expect that you would find a lot more help at retail stores, as most retailers would be able to hire additional workers at lower costs. I also very much doubt that there would be a decrease in productivity. Also we would see a lot more industry return to the USA as the wages would be lower and companies would be less likely to export jobs to overseas countries where a minimum wage does not exist to the expense we have it here.


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xThe__Wizard
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Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:59 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:13 am 
 

Unifying_Disorder wrote:
The problem with minimum wage is that every time it's raised, it prices certain people out of the job market. Not are there only jobs that won't be created because of rising costs, but certain positions become more untenable for the business owner.

For example, it used to be common to have people who would pump your gas for you, or usher at a movie theater and check your ticket. Those jobs are almost totally gone now because it isn't worth paying them the mandated amount for the work they do. Those positions help teenagers get started in the work force, give retired people something to do, or supplement a part time job with a second non-demanding job

It's win-win. They get some money in their pocket and something to do, and you get a service that makes your life just a little bit easier.


You honestly think that the increase in minimum wage is the only reason that changes? Not inflation or increased cost of living?

Minimum wage is a good and bad thing. It stops companies from giving shitty wages to hard working individuals but staying at minimum wage and not getting any raises is a terrible thing since everything gets more expensive and you don't earn any more money. However I am against raising the minimum wage because its a temporary solution to a long term problem.
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Riffs
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:38 am 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
Without a minimum wage, I expect that you would find a lot more help at retail stores, as most retailers would be able to hire additional workers at lower costs.


You are babbling nonsensical fantasies again and have no idea how a decent retail store actually works.

Stores worth a shit already have the number of employees required to make things work. They are already staffed in order to maximize profits.

If someone is stupid enough to lower the minimum wage or, heaven forbid, completely abolish it, they're not going to waste the extra cash to your self-entitled ass by inventing a new position they didn't need to begin with.

You are not going to get a more pleasant shopping experience because they saved on salaries. Their relationship to their employees is the same as their relationships to customers: they don't care about you, they want profit.

If they figure an extra employee makes a difference enough to bring significantly more business, they will hire one, whether there is a minimum wage or not. And if such an addition doesn't make a difference, then they won't waste cash, no matter if it's 10 bucks an hour or 3.
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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Riffs
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:52 am 
 

Unifying_Disorder wrote:
For example, it used to be common to have people who would pump your gas for you, or usher at a movie theater and check your ticket.


Those jobs are meaningless. That's why they're gone. More and more, people were ACTIVELY fleeing the slow, extremely creepy guy pumping gas for you and trying to find things that were wrong with your totally fine car and sucker you out of a tip. It's just better, faster and cheaper to fill the tank yourself and quickly slip your credit card in and out.

Yes, a few people with powertrip fantasies probably lament the loss of the servile "colored folk" who used to shine your shoes or the sinister dude pumping gas for pocket change.

But everyone else, people who have noticed the year is 2013, don't give a flying fuck.

Theaters aren't magically going to invent new positions if you lower wages. They've adapted to a new reality, a new way of doing things. And they've got a lot of things to worry about before wages.
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:08 am 
 

No kidding. What is this notion that a job should exist just because it employs people? That sounds almost... commie-talk. :lol: Jobs exist if the labour is required by the business, plain and simple. When automated industries arrived, many manual labourers were out of work. When cars became predominant, I bet many horseshoe makers and stableboys lost their jobs... should we have kept those jobs around just for them? Silliness.
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Porman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:34 am 
 

That's what they did in Eastern Germany back when my father was living there in the early 50's. They would actively cram people into factories just because those were the rules.

Good for the employees, sure.
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In
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:41 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:01 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
Metantoine wrote:
You've just proven that you're an hypocrite considering your post here: viewtopic.php?f=3&p=2197074#p2197074


He can't even buy a fucking CD and I am the one who is economically illiterate? :lol:

Hey, In, I'll give you 15 bucks a month for my housecleaning! That should buy you an album and it sounds fair to me!

You don't know my situation, so don't claim you know my situation. And yes, I called you economically illiterate because you bought into the liberal propaganda that only the government can help us out of this mess.

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orionmetalhead
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:52 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:

You are babbling nonsensical fantasies again and have no idea how a decent retail store actually works.


I work in a retail store, I've been promoted 5 times, and hear the same complaints from customers ALL the time. I didn't get that far by being an idiot. The number one complaint: I couldn't find any help in that department. This also ignores the fact that stores ARE understaffed. You can ask anyone that works in a retail store. The reason: They have to watch their bottom line. Retail stores' payroll comes out of their pocket, not the overall company's, so even though all retail stores would love to hire more employees to help clean, stock shelves, help customers, do other tasks around the store, they can't because every employee they hire takes a HUGE bite out of the bottom line profits of a store.

Riffs wrote:
Stores worth a shit already have the number of employees required to make things work. They are already staffed in order to maximize profits.


They have enough employees to make things work but to say that they have enough employees to provide service that is up to standards retail stores WANT to have for their customers, they don't. Everywhere has enough people to "just make things work." They are staffed as they are in lieu of their profits, not because they are staffed to maximize them. More employees, more help = better customer service and better bottom line sales. Customers come to my store because they like our service, tell us we are more helpful than other stores, even if we aren't fully staffed all the time. If there was no minimum wage, the part timers and college students that work there would still work there for pocket money, but we would be able to hire a few other employees. Hours wouldn't be cut to meet sales figures and employees would have MORE hours because their pay isn't inflated to meet government ideas on what the "minimum" should be.

Riffs wrote:
If someone is stupid enough to lower the minimum wage or, heaven forbid, completely abolish it, they're not going to waste the extra cash to your self-entitled ass by inventing a new position they didn't need to begin with.


It seems to me that you're the one that believes they are entitled to a wage. I believe I should be paid because I work my ass off, am extremely good at what I do, and have increased sales and service levels in every department I've worked in. That's why I get paid. not because I'm entitled to some paycheck because the government tells me I am.

Riffs wrote:
You are not going to get a more pleasant shopping experience because they saved on salaries. Their relationship to their employees is the same as their relationships to customers: they don't care about you, they want profit.


You will when employers can hire a few more workers to help handle increased traffic on weekends. Maybe the stores that you have shopped in treat their employees like shit and their customers like shit but I generally do not see that in my store. This sentiment is the same sentiment I hear from people who believe the world is out to get them, that employers are evil and that no one cares about each other because everyone is a greedy, spoiled asshole. This is the kind of attitude that pervades our economic system in the country and is the reason why people are disenfranchised with the whole thing. I actually really like where I work, I've been given all the opportunities that everyone else has and I've worked hard to earn consistently better positions at work. I never felt I was entitled to anything. I got there because my employer saw that I cared about where I work, and they showed they cared about retaining me as an employee by continually promoting me. I know they are preparing me for the next promotion level as well which would be for a salaried position with stock options and benefits and so on and so forth. Maybe you believe that employers don't care about you because your attitude towards your employers is so shitty that they don't care to treat you well. Or maybe you work for shitty companies.

Riffs wrote:
If they figure an extra employee makes a difference enough to bring significantly more business, they will hire one, whether there is a minimum wage or not. And if such an addition doesn't make a difference, then they won't waste cash, no matter if it's 10 bucks an hour or 3.


Where I work, we hire an additional 5 employees for the Holiday season and for the Spring season. Most are temporary workers who understand they are only going to be working there for a few weeks. The past few hiring cycles however we've retained several of those temporary workers to work part time weekends. We've kept people on staff to work weekends, even during the slower seasons because our store has realized that those employees were worth keeping, even if they had to "waste cash" on them during the slower seasons of the year. If they could hire three additional employees for $3 an hour instead of 1 worker for $10 an hour. They would. Why wouldn't they? It makes everyone's jobs easier, it makes the store run smoother, work gets done faster, everything is cleaner and neater. It's more efficient.

If you remove the minimum wage, I expect that you wouldn't see a significant drop in what workers are offered when they apply for a job. I do believe you would see a drop in living costs, price of food and stuff like that slowly because the market would even itself out. I think you would see a large influx in hiring, and with more people working, you would see more people having money to spend. Additionally it would severely hinder the amount of under-the-table work given to illegal immigrants if coupled with a removal of minimum wage, states were allowed to actively seek out and heavily fine companies and employers that hired illegal workers.
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FearTheNome
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:11 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
They have enough employees to make things work but to say that they have enough employees to provide service that is up to standards retail stores WANT to have for their customers, they don't. Everywhere has enough people to "just make things work." They are staffed as they are in lieu of their profits, not because they are staffed to maximize them. More employees, more help = better customer service and better bottom line sales. Customers come to my store because they like our service, tell us we are more helpful than other stores, even if we aren't fully staffed all the time. If there was no minimum wage, the part timers and college students that work there would still work there for pocket money, but we would be able to hire a few other employees. Hours wouldn't be cut to meet sales figures and employees would have MORE hours because their pay isn't inflated to meet government ideas on what the "minimum" should be.


Sounds like you're drinking your empoyer's koolaid in a major way. If you can't afford to pay your employees enough to live on without going out of business, maybe there's a problem with your business model and you should go out of business.

orionmetalhead wrote:
It seems to me that you're the one that believes they are entitled to a wage. I believe I should be paid because I work my ass off, am extremely good at what I do, and have increased sales and service levels in every department I've worked in. That's why I get paid. not because I'm entitled to some paycheck because the government tells me I am.


Wait a second. Are you saying you think you deserve to make enough to live on solely because you're above average at your job?

..you're aware that, by the definition of average, 50% of people are below average at their jobs, right? I guess they should live on cat food and try to get emergency room care when they're sick, because no one owes them anything?

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orionmetalhead
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:26 pm 
 

What the hell are you talking about? I never said anything about a living wage. I said I should be paid what I get paid because I work hard at my job and am good at it. I said I'm not entitled to my wage because the government declares that it's what I should make or what some totally arbitrary "minimum" is set at. I'm offered my wage by my employer because they believe I do a good job and am worth what they pay me, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not saying other people aren't good at their job. I'm not making outlandish statistical correlations.

My company is doing just fine, they pay over the minimum wage for almost every employee anyway. Our stock has increased significantly over the past year and is at the highest level it's been ever.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:27 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
I work in a retail store, I've been promoted 5 times, and hear the same complaints from customers ALL the time. I didn't get that far by being an idiot. The number one complaint: I couldn't find any help in that department. This also ignores the fact that stores ARE understaffed. You can ask anyone that works in a retail store. The reason: They have to watch their bottom line. Retail stores' payroll comes out of their pocket, not the overall company's, so even though all retail stores would love to hire more employees to help clean, stock shelves, help customers, do other tasks around the store, they can't because every employee they hire takes a HUGE bite out of the bottom line profits of a store.


Retail stores hire the minimum to accomplish tasks that need to be done. Hiring more employees won't necessarily increase sales - consider the opportunity cost of having a $3/hour drone help someone instead of a qualified employee like you. The cost of disengaged employees is high, and when pay significantly affects quality of life, there is an exceptionally high rate of disengagement. Paying minimum wage means "if I could pay you less, I would."

Giving employers the option to exploit employees at a lower cost doesn't stimulate business, it simply gives them a chance to increase their profits a bit more. The idea that workers should be given the freedom to work for an even smaller portion of the cost of living does not make the magic of "the market" work - their costs of living drive consumption. If you cut the pay of someone stocking shelves from $8/hour to $3/hour, it reduces the cost of goods, and it also reduces the amount of money that goes directly to a consumer in the local economy. Further consolidating wealth and power doesn't drive consumption, it makes it stagnate, and it also causes the government to expand programs such as food stamps and welfare, because the people who are losing out still have power in the political process - the money goes a long way to misinform them though!

orionmetalhead wrote:
If you remove the minimum wage, I expect that you wouldn't see a significant drop in what workers are offered when they apply for a job. I do believe you would see a drop in living costs, price of food and stuff like that slowly because the market would even itself out. I think you would see a large influx in hiring, and with more people working, you would see more people having money to spend. Additionally it would severely hinder the amount of under-the-table work given to illegal immigrants if coupled with a removal of minimum wage, states were allowed to actively seek out and heavily fine companies and employers that hired illegal workers.


How would the cost of living drop? How does removing the minimum wage affect the cost of housing? Does it reduce the price of gas or mass transit? Does it significantly reduce the cost of utilities?

Could you please explain the flow of logic in how removing the minimum wage would cause an influx of hiring without a significant drop in wage, and how it would allow people more money to spend?

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orionmetalhead
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:40 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Paying minimum wage means "if I could pay you less, I would."


See above. The vast majority of employees that work in my store earn above minimum wage. I was offered above minimum wage when I applied for the job.

Zodijackyl wrote:
How would the cost of living drop? How does removing the minimum wage affect the cost of housing? Does it reduce the price of gas or mass transit? Does it significantly reduce the cost of utilities?

Could you please explain the flow of logic in how removing the minimum wage would cause an influx of hiring without a significant drop in wage, and how it would allow people more money to spend?


Perhaps I'm too optimistic about this, and I may be wrong in how I reason this out but removing the minimum wage wouldn't immediately change currently employed worker's salaries in most cases. They are going to retain their current pay in almost all instances. The reduction would only affect new hires - those who are already unemployed or underemployed. I expect that you'll see some immediate hiring on a small scale and I don't believe that companies would offer peanuts as a pay rate. They would offer something similar to what minimum wage was but perhaps just slightly lower... $7 or $8 an hour or so. I doubt that most large stores would pay less than that if there were no minimum wage. The reason is that were they to pay lower than that, other stores would offer a slightly higher wage to attract interested workers. Obviously they wouldn't offer an exuberant rate for unskilled labor but it wouldn't be extremely low either. Most companies don't want to be viewed as sweatshops. It's easy to not shop at a particular store when there are other stores nearby that are known to treat their employees better.

With the drop in average wage, I think the market would have to react in terms of the pricing of everyday goods as well. It wouldn't be a significant drop immediately but it would drop slightly I believe.

Perhaps that's all a dumb notion.
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FearTheNome
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:50 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
Zodijackyl wrote:
Paying minimum wage means "if I could pay you less, I would."


See above. The vast majority of employees that work in my store earn above minimum wage. I was offered above minimum wage when I applied for the job.


Doesn't this invalidate your entire argument about how your understaffed store would have more employees and better service if it could pay them less?

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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:51 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
Zodijackyl wrote:
Paying minimum wage means "if I could pay you less, I would."


See above. The vast majority of employees that work in my store earn above minimum wage. I was offered above minimum wage when I applied for the job.


Seems to be contradictory with this:

orionmetalhead wrote:
More employees, more help = better customer service and better bottom line sales. Customers come to my store because they like our service, tell us we are more helpful than other stores, even if we aren't fully staffed all the time.


Your store has fewer employees, but better qualified employees (or at least I assume they're paid more for a reason). Certainly this correlates to quality of work, no?

orionmetalhead wrote:
If they could hire three additional employees for $3 an hour instead of 1 worker for $10 an hour. They would. Why wouldn't they? It makes everyone's jobs easier, it makes the store run smoother, work gets done faster, everything is cleaner and neater. It's more efficient.


Would customer service at your store be better if you were replaced by four or five people making $3 per hour? Would they do the same quality of work as you? Not only is knowledge a factor in helping customers get what they need (as you pride yourself on good customer service), but disengaged employees don't do a good job. You see this at minimum wage too, not as a consequence of minimum wage existing, but as a result of employers treating these employees as a commodity. If the employer could hire someone to do your job for less, they would. If they could find a job that paid a dollar per hour more, they would leave. It isn't a friendly relationship.

Minimum wage jobs tend to be one of two things - either a business that retains low-level employees through workplace quality (i.e. local businesses where young people might enjoy working part-time doing basic work), or more commonly, massive labor exploitation where workers are a commodity purchased in time blocks at the lowest possible price, thriving off of the motivation of downward mobility (being fired and replaced) rather than the possibility of upward mobility. Wal-Mart is a huge example of this - they use their size and power to exploit labor at the lowest possible cost, their management is vicious and holds their jobs by enforcing anti-social policies and ensuring the most work for the least amount of money. Wal-Mart's appeal isn't customer service, their appeal is putting a low price on products. They hire unskilled labor and have little motivation to develop employees' skills to be helpful/knowledgeable, preferring to replace them. The same type of entry level employee, under you, would be educated and become more qualified, because customer service is valuable to you. At Wal-Mart, they would be replaced if management through the average minimum-wage seeker could do their job better.

There is absolutely no goodwill nor kindness here. Removing minimum wage encourages them to negatively entice employees by threatening pay cuts or replacements at a lower cost, not out of genuine merit, but out of a faceless corporate system designed to maximize profits. That's your free market at work. An aspect of the "free market" that libertarians tend to ignore is that each of these people are also individuals in a democracy who can vote for candidates who will improve welfare systems, provide better health insurance to the general public, increase availability of food stamps, and other things to give them a decent standard of living. They can vote, as you would say, to give them what they feel they are entitled to. The counter to this is an attempt to consolidate greater wealth with those who can exploit their labor - money is speech, and that's how the average person can be countered in the political system.

orionmetalhead wrote:
Perhaps I'm too optimistic about this, and I may be wrong in how I reason this out but removing the minimum wage wouldn't immediately change currently employed worker's salaries in most cases. They are going to retain their current pay in almost all instances. The reduction would only affect new hires - those who are already unemployed or underemployed. I expect that you'll see some immediate hiring on a small scale and I don't believe that companies would offer peanuts as a pay rate. They would offer something similar to what minimum wage was but perhaps just slightly lower... $7 or $8 an hour or so. I doubt that most large stores would pay less than that if there were no minimum wage. The reason is that were they to pay lower than that, other stores would offer a slightly higher wage to attract interested workers. Obviously they wouldn't offer an exuberant rate for unskilled labor but it wouldn't be extremely low either. Most companies don't want to be viewed as sweatshops. It's easy to not shop at a particular store when there are other stores nearby that are known to treat their employees better.


Why wouldn't employers replace current employees with those willing to work for less? Some are cutting hours of full-timers to make them part-time so they don't have to pay for their healthcare/benefits, and most businesses who can do this already do. If they can get the job done for less money, that's more money in their pockets. This also gives them a political motivation to keep unemployment high and sustain both the fact and the perception that a lot of people are looking for work, including a lot of people who are willing to take work that they are overqualified for.

The free market encourages employers to use their first amendment right of donating money to political campaigns to support candidates with policies that will sustain a significantly greater supply of labor than is demanded. The free market encourages them to prevent more jobs from being available so they can hire labor to fill their jobs at a lower rate. Large companies have little to humanize the lower level employees to the bosses - you have been promoted five times - can the person five levels above you put a face to the person five levels below you, where you started out, or are they simply a faceless commodity who could be replaced with no perceived moral consequences?

orionmetalhead wrote:
Perhaps that's all a dumb notion.


Perhaps.

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Erosion of Humanity
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:08 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
There is absolutely no goodwill nor kindness here. Removing minimum wage encourages them to negatively entice employees by threatening pay cuts or replacements at a lower cost, not out of genuine merit, but out of a faceless corporate system designed to maximize profits. That's your free market at work. An aspect of the "free market" that libertarians tend to ignore is that each of these people are also individuals in a democracy who can vote for candidates who will improve welfare systems, provide better health insurance to the general public, increase availability of food stamps, and other things to give them a decent standard of living. They can vote, as you would say, to give them what they feel they are entitled to. The counter to this is an attempt to consolidate greater wealth with those who can exploit their labor - money is speech, and that's how the average person can be countered in the political system.


And that's the problem with the current state of affairs in the U.S., it would seem, to me at least, that no matter who we elect the middle class and low class citizens get fucked.

Zodijackyl wrote:
Why wouldn't employers replace current employees with those willing to work for less? Some are cutting hours of full-timers to make them part-time so they don't have to pay for their healthcare/benefits, and most businesses who can do this already do. If they can get the job done for less money, that's more money in their pockets. This also gives them a political motivation to keep unemployment high and sustain both the fact and the perception that a lot of people are looking for work, including a lot of people who are willing to take work that they are overqualified for.

The free market encourages employers to use their first amendment right of donating money to political campaigns to support candidates with policies that will sustain a significantly greater supply of labor than is demanded. The free market encourages them to prevent more jobs from being available so they can hire labor to fill their jobs at a lower rate. Large companies have little to humanize the lower level employees to the bosses - you have been promoted five times - can the person five levels above you put a face to the person five levels below you, where you started out, or are they simply a faceless commodity who could be replaced with no perceived moral consequences?


Again we need politicians who will actually fight for the people not big business we need more laws to protect the workers in this country. At my work it's contract year and the company I work for wants to take away our rights, freeze our pay, and charge us for health and welfare costs. Happily for us we have a union who cares (is paid to care is more accurate) that will fight for our rights as workers and fight to keep us at competitive rates. In my opinion that's what the workers need more than a fixed rate of pay, they need somebody to watch out for them and keep them at competitive rates for the market and in the fields that they are employed. And that job should fall to the elected officials we sure pay them enough.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:34 pm 
 

In wrote:
You don't know my situation, so don't claim you know my situation.


I know you're a fucking lamer who can't afford a CD yet advocates for a lot of people to be generally even poorer than they are with your backwards views on wages. That's what I know. But here's the thing. While your broke ass can download stupid music, people can't fileshare food and clothing.

In wrote:
And yes, I called you economically illiterate because you bought into the liberal propaganda that only the government can help us out of this mess.


Help you out of what mess? What are you ranting about?

Minimum wage has nothing to do with any mess you are in, nor will abolishing it get you out of anything either. It's not an exhorbitant amount, you fool. People can barely get by on it. It's not a panacea for a country's ecomomy either. What it does is establish the most basic, shitty pay one can get and helps squanders costly labor crisis which can turn into nasty (and also very costly) social crisis. It's just smart. But I guess some people would rather go back to the dark ages.

It's rich that you turn this into a liberal propaganda debate. Most countries on this planet use a minimal wage scheme in some form or another. And I don't believe in big government but I also don't believe in no government. A minimum wage is a simple, relatively elegant mechanism.

Remove your tinfoil hat and you'll see that hordes of economists and other "economically literate" people have no problem with such a system.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:36 pm 
 

FearTheNome wrote:
orionmetalhead wrote:
See above. The vast majority of employees that work in my store earn above minimum wage. I was offered above minimum wage when I applied for the job.


Doesn't this invalidate your entire argument about how your understaffed store would have more employees and better service if it could pay them less?


Checkmate.
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Porman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:48 pm 
 

You want to see where you're citizens are heading then take a look at the current situation in Greece...
Lower wages, higher taxes, pension cuts etc.
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