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BarryLamarBonds
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:36 pm
Posts: 215
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:01 am 
 

Riffs wrote:
BarryLamarBonds wrote:
You are a capitalist. 1 percent of the test participators are in the same category and 3 percent are more extremist than you.


This suggests to me that this test is bullshit.

Only 1 percent of the folks tested score as capitalist? That cannot really be in the current global context.


Not really. In the context of that test, 'capitalist' has a pretty distinct meaning from that of its usual proponents, like the Republican Party. You have to be against welfare, public goods, minimum wage and other things, and while I haven't re-taken the test, I also suspect that you have to have a least moderate anarchistic and pacifistic scores in order to qualify for the 'capitalist' label. Think of 'capitalist' as hardline libertarianism, or anarcho-capitalism.

John_Sunlight wrote:
These tests tend to skew peoples' results to the extremes of whatever they believe in as in practice most people would not advocate taking more than a handful of minor steps towards realizing their ideas at any given time. Most people are also reformist rather than revolutionary and these tests don't seem to make that distinction, so a lot of fairly normal people get lumped in with the "Fuck all ya'll!" types.


There's something to this. If I had a magic wand and could become benevolent dictator of the U.S. for life, I'd dismantle the military by 25% a year for 4 years, but the welfare state would be cut by something more like 4% for 25 years. Philosophically I'd hit the magic button that eliminates it all immediately.

Einzige wrote:
But I dislike the idea of being in the same quadrant with Austrian-style libertarians, Ron Paulites, Randian Objectivists, and so on. I'm way to their left. My wanting to get the government out of the economy has a lot more to do with wanting to abolish corporate welfare and State support for capitalist hierarchies and virtually nothing at all to do with "market efficiencies".


Many (if not most) Austro-libertarians oppose the State because of coercion, not market efficiencies. There are some anarcho/Austro-libertarians who are utilitarians (David Friedman is one), but typically utilitarians end up being more like Gary Johnson/Reason/CATO than they do Murray Rothbard/Mises Institute, who are typically deontologists. There is a large overlap of the Ron Paul and Austro-libertarian crowd as well, as Ron Paul himself has associated with Murray Rothbard, Walter Block, Lew Rockwell, Hans-Herman Hoppe, and the Mises Institute crowd.

Napero wrote:
I think this somehow connects my ideas of personal freedom to an assumption that I also want corporations to have the freedom to rape the planet. Which is a biased idea, and really about as far from the truth as possible.


It doesn't. The authoritarian/libertarian axis is based on political and social ideologies, and the left/right axis is scored on economic ideologies. Your position on the graph shows you mostly oppose state intervention in the personal sphere, but mostly welcome it in the economic.

Where the test fails somewhat is when someone like Tom Tancredo and myself end up in similar places on the economic axis. Tancredo is a classic protectionist who opposes immigration. I'm opposed to all tariffs and advocate open borders.

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naverhtrad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:53 am 
 

Here are mine:

Spoiler: show
Image

Economic Barney Greenway / Jon Schaffer: -6.38
Social Dan Lilker / Dave Mustaine: 1.33


Spoiler: show
You are a patriotic and authoritarian communist:

Image


And here are the results from another 3-axis test:

Spoiler: show
Radicalism: 44.5
Socialism: 87.5
Tenderness: 78.125

These scores indicate that you are a tender-minded moderate; this is the political profile one might associate with a protective parent. It appears that you are accepting of religion, and have a generally optimistic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear communist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as pro-government.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a devoted egalitarian with many strong opinions.


So yeah, I'm generally a socially-conservative, patriotic socialist with a favourable view of religion. Essentially what the Labour Party in Britain used to be - more Methodism than Marx and all that. If the modern Nordic left-green parties got rid of a lot of their anti-classicist, anti-Western cultural nonsense, I think I'd be fully on board with them.

I think there are going to be weaknesses with any of these sorts of tests, though, and nuances that don't carry into the results... I'm certainly not 'pro-government' in my own political context. My nation's government is neoliberal, foreign policy hawkish, hostile to religion and to the rights of indigenous peoples, and I am highly critical of all of these trends. This places me on the same 'side' of many issues as many libertarians and anti-war liberals, even though I'm certainly neither one of those.

Einzige wrote:
But I dislike the idea of being in the same quadrant with Austrian-style libertarians, Ron Paulites, Randian Objectivists, and so on. I'm way to their left. My wanting to get the government out of the economy has a lot more to do with wanting to abolish corporate welfare and State support for capitalist hierarchies and virtually nothing at all to do with "market efficiencies".


BarryLamarBonds wrote:
Many (if not most) Austro-libertarians oppose the State because of coercion, not market efficiencies. There are some anarcho/Austro-libertarians who are utilitarians (David Friedman is one), but typically utilitarians end up being more like Gary Johnson/Reason/CATO than they do Murray Rothbard/Mises Institute, who are typically deontologists. There is a large overlap of the Ron Paul and Austro-libertarian crowd as well, as Ron Paul himself has associated with Murray Rothbard, Walter Block, Lew Rockwell, Hans-Herman Hoppe, and the Mises Institute crowd.


I think that's pretty much right. Ethical philosophy doesn't really map cleanly onto political ideology, though it does very much influence it. You'll find consequentialists on both left and right - Bo Xilai of Chinese political fame is a consequentialist who also happens to be a centre-left (for China) populist; Ayn Rand is a consequentialist who also happens to be a right-wing individualist. Same with deontology: Marxists and anarcho-capitalists both use deontological logic; where they differ is in their axiomatic priorities and values, not in their style of reasoning.

That said, I take issue with both consequentialism and deontology.

BarryLamarBonds wrote:
It doesn't. The authoritarian/libertarian axis is based on political and social ideologies, and the left/right axis is scored on economic ideologies. Your position on the graph shows you mostly oppose state intervention in the personal sphere, but mostly welcome it in the economic.

Where the test fails somewhat is when someone like Tom Tancredo and myself end up in similar places on the economic axis. Tancredo is a classic protectionist who opposes immigration. I'm opposed to all tariffs and advocate open borders.


I'm not sure that's necessarily a failure either. Back in the '08 election graphs on TPC, Sarah Palin was placed to the economic 'left' of her Republican cohort because of her protectionist stance on trade.

It would be very interesting to see where they would place somebody like Pat Buchanan.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 4167
Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:29 am 
 

Recently I took a dictator test which honestly was better than all of the political compass tests I've done so far. It also avoids the radicality problem that John_Sunlight pointed out.

Unfortunately it's in German. I'll try to translate my results for ya:
Quote:
You as dictator:
Talent: Fantastic.
Time in office: 17 years.
Leadership style: Technocratic.
Ideology: Socialistic.
Your dictatorship went like this:
You governed wisely and long. With the necessary dash of repression you could realize your socialist society-experiment. Out of Germany you successfully made a worker's and farmer's state following the example of the glorious Cuban people. With a cigar and some rum you eventually retired to your retreat in Bad Segeberg.
Job alternatives: Insurance mathematician, PayPal-scammer
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Evangelion2014
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:59 am
Posts: 436
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:28 am 
 

Political Compass: Economic=-9.00,Social=-8.92

Image

You are a Trotskyist. 3 percent of the test participators are in the same category and 2 percent are more extremist than you.

Close enough I suppose, though I wouldn't consider myself a Trotskyist since I don't really accept vangaurdism or democratic centralism. That, and the red terror/labor camps part of lenin makes me uneasy.

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Desperta_Ferro
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:45 am
Posts: 598
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:26 am 
 

Spoiler: show
Image


So there. I would love to take the dictator test, tho.

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:34 pm 
 

I'm pretty much the same libertarian leftie anarchist I was 15 years ago despite extensive corruption by black metal and neofolk.

I support anyone marrying anything and living anywhere, at the expense of all states/nations/races.

I also support poor people getting the same medical treatment as the rich, and foreigners the same treatment as nationals, atheists the same rights as christians, and gays the same rights as straights.

In a nutshell, everything Varg Vikernes hates...... he could make an entire Thulean Monologue devoted to how much I suck ;)

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Amber Gray
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:30 am
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:30 am 
 

Economic Left/Right: -4.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.44

Spoiler: show
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-4.12&soc=-7.44
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Ancient_Mariner
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:20 pm
Posts: 293
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:38 pm 
 

Spoiler: show
Image


Kind of where I expected to end up. A libertarian with some leftist leanings left over from my democrat idealist youth.

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mayonesa
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:10 pm
Posts: 104
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:04 am 
 

Atropus wrote:
I support anyone marrying anything and living anywhere, at the expense of all states/nations/races.

I also support poor people getting the same medical treatment as the rich, and foreigners the same treatment as nationals, atheists the same rights as christians, and gays the same rights as straights.


So, basically, a leftist. Why hide behind libertarianism then? Libertarianism doesn't prescribe equality; in fact, it condemns it.

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:03 am 
 

Just because I believe everyone should get a shot doesn't mean I believe in holding people back who want to excel at something......

Why you picking on me all of a sudden?? :(

Why don't YOU take the test instead of making snarky comments on other peoples' results???

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mayonesa
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:10 pm
Posts: 104
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:37 pm 
 

Atropus wrote:
Just because I believe everyone should get a shot doesn't mean I believe in holding people back who want to excel at something......


The ol' false dichotomy fallacy. Right on time.

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:39 pm 
 

If you want to pick a fight with me, take it to PM.

If not, then like I said, take the test and quit wasting everyone's time ragging on others because WE DON'T CARE.

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mayonesa
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:10 pm
Posts: 104
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:14 pm 
 

Atropus wrote:
If you want to pick a fight with me, take it to PM.

If not, then like I said, take the test and quit wasting everyone's time ragging on others because WE DON'T CARE.


I'm just asking questions of a random Canadian. If that's not worthy, stop replying.

As a side note, I detest these political compass things. You don't know where someone's coming from until you get into the reasons why they believe certain things...

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:20 pm 
 

......which means not jumping to conclusions.

And what's with all the anger towards ideas of equality.

Maybe that's not the right word. I believe people with ability, motivation, and character should obviously be allowed to succeed. Lazy people obviously don't deserve that.

However, I believe in a society where people can succeed by character and ability, and not be held back by racial/gender discrimination, which has nothing to do with character.

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mayonesa
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:10 pm
Posts: 104
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:30 pm 
 

Atropus wrote:
And what's with all the anger towards ideas of equality.


Anger? I don't think politics should be emotional. Or any other serious decisions, really. Even love.

Equality brings in a lot of other issues. It's really complex. Such as what type of society we can have, and what the consequences of each type are.

Then there's going to be discussion of economics, which also makes some sense.

Finally, we have to clarify language.

It takes longer just to set this up than the average grindcore band exists.

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:35 pm 
 

Well, this is a society of human beings after all, not machines, so try as one might to avoid it, emotion and other "human" issues will always come up, same with religion.

Honestly, I'd rather exist in a society that puts emphasis on compassion and helping people out than one based on intolerance and death.

Intolerance and hatred may be more "metal", but that loses it's novelty very quickly once one has moved out of their parents' basement and entered adulthood/reality.

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naverhtrad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:35 am 
 

Desperta_Ferro wrote:
So there. I would love to take the dictator test, tho.


Hey bro! Also got 'patriotic authoritarian communist' on that quiz, though it seems I scored far more pacifistic. (I wouldn't say that's quite true - I support just wars, but the wars my country has waged since Korea have all, by my reckoning, been quite unjust.)

Atropus wrote:
Just because I believe everyone should get a shot doesn't mean I believe in holding people back who want to excel at something......


Talk about jumping to conclusions, dude: where is it written that we lefties 'hold people back who want to excel at something'?

Atropus wrote:
And what's with all the anger towards ideas of equality.

Maybe that's not the right word. I believe people with ability, motivation, and character should obviously be allowed to succeed. Lazy people obviously don't deserve that.

However, I believe in a society where people can succeed by character and ability, and not be held back by racial/gender discrimination, which has nothing to do with character.


I don't buy into meritocracy. Meritocracies are almost always hypocritical, treat people with legitimate disabilities like dirt, and downplay social relations which don't have immediate material benefits. In other words, they are oriented only to one highly limited form and definition of 'success'.

I do like the concept of 'character' being important, but flattening the whole concept boiling down to a single dimension of 'motivation' is self-defeating. Highly motivated people who want only 'success', in the narrow materialist definition, are the ones most likely to lie, cheat, steal and kill to get what they want - and they do, and a meritocratic society is all too often all too willing to let them get away with it, because obviously the people they lied to, cheated, stole from and killed were 'undeserving'.

mayonesa wrote:
As a side note, I detest these political compass things. You don't know where someone's coming from until you get into the reasons why they believe certain things...


That's not entirely true. The political compass does show you actual meaningful data and is quite good at showing the broad strokes of a debate, far better than the one-dimensional ideologising of a political 'spectrum'.

Someone like me, who is conservative on social issues but who is far-left on economic ones, doesn't really fit into the American political system very well at all. The PC test gives more information. But you're right - if you're using it to define yourself, you're missing the point. It's meant to start conversations, not end them.

mayonesa wrote:
Anger? I don't think politics should be emotional. Or any other serious decisions, really. Even love.


What does that even mean?

We're not machines. We're animals, albeit rational ones. Even our modes of rationality are structured around desire, and how to fulfil and order emotions. Politics is dictated by animal drives and emotions, whether you like it or not - let alone something like love. Show me someone who is truly convinced they are not, and I'll show you someone who's deluding himself.

Of course, letting your emotions dictate in entirety your approach to politics (or love) is crazy. So if that's all you meant, then I think we're in agreement.

mayonesa wrote:
Equality brings in a lot of other issues. It's really complex. Such as what type of society we can have, and what the consequences of each type are.

Then there's going to be discussion of economics, which also makes some sense.

Finally, we have to clarify language.


Seems like clarifying language ought to come first? Otherwise, how would we even be able to discuss equality, social consequences and economics? But yeah, I agree with you there.

Atropus wrote:
Honestly, I'd rather exist in a society that puts emphasis on compassion and helping people out than one based on intolerance and death.

Intolerance and hatred may be more "metal", but that loses it's novelty very quickly once one has moved out of their parents' basement and entered adulthood/reality.


Amen to that. Especially the society that puts emphasis on compassion and helping people out part.

But I don't think you'll find very many people anymore outside of certain extreme black metal circles who would actually support fashioning society and government around values of 'intolerance' and 'death'.

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:50 pm 
 

Honestly, you bring up some good points.

Indeed, summing up someone as "leftist" or "right wing" just isn't all that simple.

"So, saying you support this means that you also support this and against this......" Attack. Attack. Attack.

Politics, as has been discussed, is the antithesis of perfection. No one's views can be summed up so easily.

I suppose with my answers to this test, it puts me in the leftist camp, but that doesn't mean I'm automatically prevented from having SOME traditional or pro-religious values as well.

As for extreme black metallers: they like to say extreme things for the sensationalism of it, and envision extreme societies they will never be part of. No one ever accused them of being realistic. Image is everything.....

When you're young, you're all about proclaiming everything as some form of identity.
As you get older and have more life experiences, it becomes less important.

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lord_kexasthur
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:14 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Lebanon
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:55 pm 
 

You are a Social Democrat. 10 percent of the test participators are in the same category and 25 percent are more extremist than you.

Image

I remember scoring 99% on secular and communistic a few years back in this same test. Also I think I am ecological, but in the test I kind of showed no remorse for meat eating and animal experimenting so that may have tipped the scale to the right.



Image

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Connor123
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:08 am
Posts: 7
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:55 pm 
 

I think i was -5,-4 forgot to make sure though. But that is about right. Left wing, libertarian views but not particularly strong.

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Evangelion2014
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:59 am
Posts: 436
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:55 am 
 

What I found a bit interesting his how political compass described actual elections and where it placed leaders. Most western leaders end up being in the upper right corner despite the test's bias towards the lower left. I don't really see how it places leaders there within the framework of the test consider how ridiculous some of the authoritarian questions are, but it seems to make some sense in the abstract.

US 2012 election:http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2012

German 2013 election:http://www.politicalcompass.org/germany2013

Australian Election 2013:http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2013

US 2008 Election:http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:03 pm 
 

Also, what does the questions about racial views have to do with this political compass??

People have stereotyped the right as being most prone to being racist (much to their outrage, as in the little spat between the Tea Party and how the WWE portrayed them recently), but Adolf Hitler seems to be right in the middle.

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naverhtrad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:46 am 
 

Atropus wrote:
Also, what does the questions about racial views have to do with this political compass??

People have stereotyped the right as being most prone to being racist (much to their outrage, as in the little spat between the Tea Party and how the WWE portrayed them recently), but Adolf Hitler seems to be right in the middle.


In the US at least, WN / NS groups have forged underground alliances with libertarian ideologues partly as a matter of political convenience and partly as a matter of ideological overlap. The way our history has played out, racial equality has been something historically championed by the left and achieved largely by constitutional changes and landmark federal legislation (the 13th and 14th Amendments and the Civil Rights Act, notably). As a result, racists and the resentful have largely tended to drift toward anti-government positions. It may or may not be fair to the TEA Party types to point out the overlap of their political programme (and some of their membership) with these racist groups, but the overlap is there.

I know this is not necessarily true in Europe. The BNP and a lot of the racial-nationalist parties of Europe tend to be more welfarist in orientation - they just want to make sure that it's not non-white people or immigrants receiving the welfare.

But the assumption with the questions being on the Political Compass is that racist attitudes do tend to be one indicator of 'authoritarian' leanings. I'm with you here, Atropus - I'm not sure I agree with this orientation. Race identity does not map with any necessity onto a preference for conservative social norms (or vice-versa) - and again, I think the affinity of racists for libertarianism in the US points to the contradiction here.

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:54 pm 
 

Understood and it's completely different depending on where you live.
Racists in America tend towards political ideologies that conveniently "permit" racial attitudes, but not necessarily support or enforce them.
So while the Tea Party may not be a racist party per say, they should be aware that may not ring true with many of their supporters.

In Canadian politics, the parties that tended to promote racist attitudes were the Populist parties such as the Reform Party.
I also think racist Japanese politicians like Shintaro Ishihara could accurately be labelled Populist as well.

I also think the welfarist mentality of racist groups in Europe very accurately describes the Golden Dawn in Greece.

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naverhtrad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:33 am 
 

If I were European, though, I would almost certainly belong to one of these populist parties: Perussuomalaiset in Finland, Enhedslisten in Denmark, the No2EU - Yes to Democracy list in Britain, die Linke in Germany, LA.O.S. or SYRIZA in Greece, Атака in Bulgaria, Партія регіонів in the Ukraine. I think their critiques of the inequities inherent in globalisation, their opposition to further consolidations of power in Brussels, and their defences or robust protections for farmers and urban workers, are the most valuable things that Europe needs to hear right now.

The problem is that too many of these parties use a shotgun or kitchen-sink approach, and tend to blame immigrants and minorities for their countries' economic woes. Immigrants are victims of the systems they critique, as much as the 'native' farmers and workers are.

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:54 am 
 

Immigrants are just plain victims of things they are sick of in their home countries.

The main reason Chinese emigrate ore than any other Asian nationality due to the political corruption in their own country.

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Funeral Frog
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 9:04 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:11 pm 
 

I've taken it three times this year/last year. I started about where the OP was, but now I'm very close to the Authoritarian border, and much farther left... huh.
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