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talvikki77
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:20 pm
Posts: 183
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:36 pm 
 

So this thread isn't exactly active atm, but someone mentioned it in another thread so I sought it out, mainly cause I have friends and one relative who are transgendered and I wanted to see what the metalheads on MA thought of it all. I didn't really think about my own gender questioning until I got to this last page of posts.

Somewhat like other people have said, I used to angst a lot about gender, back when I was in college. Mainly I was dissatisfied with the fact that I had to be a gender, since I didn't feel like I fit the female role, yet definitely didn't want to be entirely male either. I just wanted to be myself without people expecting that I would look, dress and act a certain way. A large part of it was that I didn't feel like I got along with other women at all; I preferred to be friends with guys, or with lesbians who also didn't care about "feminine" things. (I also refused to label my sexual orientation in college; although I liked guys and girls about equally, I rejected the label "bi" because of the stereotype of infidelity. Funny, cause now I am (seditiously) living up to it, cause I am polyamorous now*.)

Then, major depression happened, and I forgot all about gender and a bunch of other things that used to be really important to me. It's floated into my mind a bit since then, including an attempt to only date women because I thought a guy could never accept my slightly macho tendencies (turned out a I just needed a slightly "effeminate" guy XD). But mostly, as with many other things I used to care a lot about, I'm pretty apathetic toward gender now - a lot of the time it's so hard for me just to get through my daily tasks, never mind thinking about the big picture. So for me, it's still an unresolved issue, simmering under the surface, and probably responsible for the large proportion of cross-dressing women in my fiction writing as of late :/

*I'm not saying that being poly is being unfaithful, what I mean is that now I can accept that, yeah I want to have one person of each sex or gender in my life, and that is/should be totally ok (as long as the communication happens and it's ok with everyone and yadda yadda...trying not to derail this thread too much).

As far as metalheads go, I have never seen or heard of anything negative expressed toward the two transgendered people I know who go to metal shows. But I live right by Washington, DC and the shows they go to are mainly Viking or power metal shows. Maybe in PA or WV, or at a deathcore show, the atmosphere might be different.

Now y'all know way too much about me..time to retreat to my dark corner again..
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2447
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:46 pm 
 

I can only speak from the cultural POV of living at the end of the world, but homosexuals here are not that accepted, at least in metal. If someone is gay but masks it there's no problem, but people talking openly about being gay and doing 'gay things' (see that I write it from the perspective of someone intolerant about it) is something that most people here dislike. Metalheads in particular, while not being heavily homophobic in general terms, prefer to not getting involved in any shape or form with gays, especially or mostly the ones with feminine manners. I still recognize that gays (men) with very feminine mannerisms are something awkward to see to me but I don't trash over them.

Now, many metalheads are homophobic to the point of being violent if gays are too close to them. There's a not that small NS circle here which hates everything from blackmen, gays, hobos, etc. Some of them turns their thoughts into actions.

Just my 2 cents.
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Metantoine
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:50 pm 
 

That's a very good post, talvikki. Like you said in the Pic thread, you're in DC. Don't know if you've been there all your life but it would be interesting to see the differences of mentality you had to face in different areas/situations, if you're comfortable with sharing of course. While there's obviously some homophobia here like everywhere else, it's way more progressive and I doubt it it's a big issue. Perhaps with the right wing black metal nuts but eh.
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talvikki77
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:20 pm
Posts: 183
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:18 am 
 

Metantoine wrote:
That's a very good post, talvikki. Like you said in the Pic thread, you're in DC. Don't know if you've been there all your life but it would be interesting to see the differences of mentality you had to face in different areas/situations, if you're comfortable with sharing of course. While there's obviously some homophobia here like everywhere else, it's way more progressive and I doubt it it's a big issue. Perhaps with the right wing black metal nuts but eh.


Wow, thank you. Coming from you, that means a lot :)

Well, I was born in Finland, grew up in the US, and have spent nice chunks of time in Hong Kong and mainland China. But I haven't really received much of any reaction in any of those places because I haven't been "out." Not that I've tried to hide, but I just haven't been very obvious about these things. Even when I seriously doubted my gender identity, I didn't go so far as cross-dressing, just wore baggy pants and never, ever skirts or dresses. And I only had a girlfriend for a short time, and we only hung out in Baltimore, where no one seemed to care. I did ask my friends in China about their views on homosexuality, and most of them were like, "I think it's weird...but I just ignore it." My impression of things over there was that as long as a gay person is willing to lay low and not be obvious, everyone else will pretend there's no issue. Especially because of the one child policy, though, there's a lot of pressure on young people from their parents to marry and continue the family name :/

And like I said, I've never heard my transgendered friends or my brother, who is FTM, mention anything happening to them in this or any other area. Heck, one of my trans friends is in South Africa right now, and is having a blast, with no reported problems of being accepted there. Then again, it may be easier to be accepted as FTM (which is what all my friends who are trans are) because as a whole, it has become accepted for women to dress and act in a much more "masculine" way (at least in the US and western Europe), while men acting or dressing in a "feminine" way is still a big no-no to many people.

I think I'm pretty lucky to live where I do. Not just for the progressive climate overall (minus some of the nuts in Congress >.<) but for the progressive attitudes in the metal scene. Kveldulfr's post really put that in perspective for me.

Well, I guess I'm beginning to have a bit of a reawakening in terms of thinking about gender, sexual orientation and social activism. Hopefully it will last and I can channel it into something productive..
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raveneyeslikemirrors
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:30 am
Posts: 402
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:12 pm 
 

Napero wrote:

To add a real comment, I believe the metal scene is quite tolerant of most things. A large part of it is somewhat liberal thinking by most people involved, but the main reason is certainly the "why should I give a fuck" attitude, and that simply means that the issue is a non-issue for most people, and that, in turn, also means it's not worth much discussion for the crowd. So if you're a transsexual, you can just take it easy and enjoy the scenery; but if you're a transsexual looking for attention, I'm afraid you will be disappointed.

Whatever...


I would like to make a point. In metal music and lyrics, there are plenty of examples of guys looking for attention for their heterosexual behavior. Thats a given. The fact that a transsexual person is at risk of being mocked or even threatened for drawing attention to their behavior is a sign that metal is not tolerant at all. It simply says, you can come in the back door, but keep your head down, we dont want to see you. Thats not tolerant at all.

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raveneyeslikemirrors
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:30 am
Posts: 402
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:25 pm 
 

talvikki77 wrote:
Metantoine wrote:
That's a very good post, talvikki. Like you said in the Pic thread, you're in DC. Don't know if you've been there all your life but it would be interesting to see the differences of mentality you had to face in different areas/situations, if you're comfortable with sharing of course. While there's obviously some homophobia here like everywhere else, it's way more progressive and I doubt it it's a big issue. Perhaps with the right wing black metal nuts but eh.


Wow, thank you. Coming from you, that means a lot :)

Well, I was born in Finland, grew up in the US, and have spent nice chunks of time in Hong Kong and mainland China. But I haven't really received much of any reaction in any of those places because I haven't been "out." Not that I've tried to hide, but I just haven't been very obvious about these things. Even when I seriously doubted my gender identity, I didn't go so far as cross-dressing, just wore baggy pants and never, ever skirts or dresses. And I only had a girlfriend for a short time, and we only hung out in Baltimore, where no one seemed to care. I did ask my friends in China about their views on homosexuality, and most of them were like, "I think it's weird...but I just ignore it." My impression of things over there was that as long as a gay person is willing to lay low and not be obvious, everyone else will pretend there's no issue. Especially because of the one child policy, though, there's a lot of pressure on young people from their parents to marry and continue the family name :/

And like I said, I've never heard my transgendered friends or my brother, who is FTM, mention anything happening to them in this or any other area. Heck, one of my trans friends is in South Africa right now, and is having a blast, with no reported problems of being accepted there. Then again, it may be easier to be accepted as FTM (which is what all my friends who are trans are) because as a whole, it has become accepted for women to dress and act in a much more "masculine" way (at least in the US and western Europe), while men acting or dressing in a "feminine" way is still a big no-no to many people.

I think I'm pretty lucky to live where I do. Not just for the progressive climate overall (minus some of the nuts in Congress >.<) but for the progressive attitudes in the metal scene. Kveldulfr's post really put that in perspective for me.

Well, I guess I'm beginning to have a bit of a reawakening in terms of thinking about gender, sexual orientation and social activism. Hopefully it will last and I can channel it into something productive..


Thats awesome. Im behind you. I myself am a bi male and I also have a developed feminine side alongside my masculine metalhead one. It gives me a more diverse, emotionally stable, and independent experience in life. For a while I had not known any other metalheads or listeners here who are queer of some sort. Seeing trans people willing to talk is fantastic. I think that in the end, people will have to accept that the human experience is far too complex, and some metalheads will happen to also be gay, lesbian, TG etc... There is no way to stop that, no matter how much loudmouthed ns guys may whine or threaten. Especially since a very large part of the community is now an amorphous internet phenomenon. So much more metalheads exist today as jsut a person in fromt of a coputer who buys cds and albums and does all their headbanging alone in their rooms, for there is more to offer in that than their local area where the likelihood of seeing a good metal show is limited.

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talvikki77
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:20 pm
Posts: 183
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:04 pm 
 

raveneyeslikemirrors wrote:
I myself am a bi male and I also have a developed feminine side alongside my masculine metalhead one. It gives me a more diverse, emotionally stable, and independent experience in life.

Exactly. I have never wanted to conform in any way, just to be myself.

I forgot to say in my last post that I was also pretty happy to find that MA metalheads are so accepting and aware of gender issues. I felt some trepidation about what kind of bashing I might find in this thread, and was pleasantly surprised at the tolerant tone that was set and how informed many of the posters were (probably more informed than me, honestly). Several people have mentioned that as outsiders themselves, metalheads should be more accepting of other kinds of outsiders in their midst, but I don't know if that's necessarily the case - I think it has more to do with how progressive an area and a particular scene is in general. For instance, I would be less hesitant about coming out as poly in the goth scene here than in the metal scene. In any case, at least if they are not accepted in their home region, LGBTQ metalheads can know they will be accepted and respected here on MA. :)
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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
Posts: 431
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:03 pm 
 

Scarlett Jessica wrote:
Transsexuality is something not widely accepted in the world. Thanks to Mina Caputo, Marissa Martinez, and bands like Mechanical Black, metal is progressing and accepting it. Are there any ts fans on the metal archives?


What does "progressing" mean?
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:11 pm 
 

Considering that user hasn't posted since the day this thread was created nine months ago, I'm not sure you're going to get an answer to that question.
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yentass
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:28 am
Posts: 911
Location: Israel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:59 am 
 

raveneyeslikemirrors wrote:
I would like to make a point. In metal music and lyrics, there are plenty of examples of guys looking for attention for their heterosexual behavior. Thats a given. The fact that a transsexual person is at risk of being mocked or even threatened for drawing attention to their behavior is a sign that metal is not tolerant at all. It simply says, you can come in the back door, but keep your head down, we dont want to see you. Thats not tolerant at all.

You completely misread his post. First off, he wasn't talking about tolerance, but of indifference, which means that anyone who's being obnoxious about his state/preferences will be shunned down equally, LGBTs and straights alike. Don't be a dick, and there won't be any problems. It applies to all cases in life if you think about it.

Also, on the subject of metal lyrics - do bear in mind that times and perceptions change, and what was acceptable in the 80's isn't necessarily as acceptable now, so I do hope you have more recent examples to back your point.
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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
Posts: 431
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:20 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Considering that user hasn't posted since the day this thread was created nine months ago, I'm not sure you're going to get an answer to that question.


Probably paid agitprop. It usually is.
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crises79
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 5:50 am
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:42 am 
 

talvikki77 wrote:
LGBTQ

What does the Q stand for?
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talvikki77
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Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:20 pm
Posts: 183
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:22 am 
 

When I actually paid attention to these things years ago, it meant "questioning", but now it might mean "queer."
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:26 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
iamntbatman wrote:
Considering that user hasn't posted since the day this thread was created nine months ago, I'm not sure you're going to get an answer to that question.


Probably paid agitprop. It usually is.

Actually, it pretty much never is.
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TheGrimWombat
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Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:38 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
Now, many metalheads are homophobic to the point of being violent if gays are too close to them. There's a not that small NS circle here which hates everything from blackmen, gays, hobos, etc. Some of them turns their thoughts into actions.



I have personally seen metalheads in Chile strike out physically against gays and transvestites with my own two eyes.

Also, my brother there was stabbed multiple times (and lost a lung) by some NS folk just because he had long hair.
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waiguoren
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:23 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:59 pm 
 

talvikki77 wrote:
Heck, one of my trans friends is in South Africa right now, and is having a blast, with no reported problems of being accepted there.


Well yeah, same as anywhere else I guess, if you're in a big city, and not in a poor neighborhood filled with white trash, you should be fine. As for HK, that place (for Asia) is very Western/open to LBGTwhatevs, and even Mainland China, they might not like something, but I can't see them getting violent, also it seems like gays were pretty much accepted there, in the first and second-tier cities at least. South Korea is far more homophobic (and conservative) than China, oddly enough. Back to South Africa, I could definitely see a trans person getting harassed or beaten up in a small conservative racist Afrikaner town, but then again, I could see the same happening to me because of the hair and so-called 'satanic' t-shirts (also, being weak - arms like hairy toothpicks are a curse).
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talvikki77
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Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:21 pm 
 

waiguoren wrote:
As for HK, that place (for Asia) is very Western/open to LBGTwhatevs, and even Mainland China, they might not like something, but I can't see them getting violent, also it seems like gays were pretty much accepted there, in the first and second-tier cities at least. South Korea is far more homophobic (and conservative) than China, oddly enough.

I don't know too much about South Korea, but that does seem surprising, since South Korea has been much more open to western influence than the PRC. (I wonder how Taiwan stands in all this?) Perhaps it has something to do with the destruction of traditional Chinese culture during the Cultural Revolution. The generations growing up since then were basically growing up on a blank slate, a cultural void filled first by Communist ideology and then western consumerism (at least, that is my impression; I'm neither Chinese nor old enough to have witnessed the Cultural Revolution firsthand).

Quote:
Back to South Africa, I could definitely see a trans person getting harassed or beaten up in a small conservative racist Afrikaner town, but then again, I could see the same happening to me because of the hair and so-called 'satanic' t-shirts (also, being weak - arms like hairy toothpicks are a curse).

I didn't think too much about it till posting in this thread because my friend hadn't said anything about being harassed, but now I'm feeling pretty surprised/lucky that he hasn't been. I'm not sure where in South Africa he is (he's doing some kind of social justice related internship) so, I'm just hoping he makes it back ok.

And again, I feel lucky now to live in such a progressive area where wearing 'satanic' t-shirts is a total non-issue, when in many places that could be a problem.
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Conservationism
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Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:12 pm 
 

These conversations can't go anywhere. It's either:

(a) I agree with the government, big media, major corporations and everyone leftist (90% of the world) that this is a great thing! In fact, it should be our goal.

or

(b) I'm a heretic and I denounce the greatest ideological trope of our time (equality at all costs).
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Napero
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:17 am 
 

And your point is, Conservationism? It would be a really good idea to explain the rationale behind your post...

And these discussions do go somewhere. If 90% of the world agrees on something, it usually goes somewhere.
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hunglikemouse
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Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:25 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:11 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
These conversations can't go anywhere. It's either:

(a) I agree with the government, big media, major corporations and everyone leftist (90% of the world) that this is a great thing! In fact, it should be our goal.

or

(b) I'm a heretic and I denounce the greatest ideological trope of our time (equality at all costs).

This post says a lot about you. You seem to view the world in black and white and in turn you miss out on the beauty of individuality and the human spirit.

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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:26 am 
 

I don't want to live in a world that's either left or right, but one that's balanced, you need elements of both for that, not extremes of each at any time.

What ever sort of society we've been leading up to these last few decades (here), I'm sure it's more to benefit the rich, than for any concern for the "masses".
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:28 pm 
 

The left/right spectrum is a terrible model.

It was already obsolete when it came into use back when monarchist sat on the right, democrats on the left side of the parliament.
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the_raytownian
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Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:09 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:10 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
These conversations can't go anywhere. It's either:

(a) I agree with the government, big media, major corporations and everyone leftist (90% of the world) that this is a great thing! In fact, it should be our goal.

or

(b) I'm a heretic and I denounce the greatest ideological trope of our time (equality at all costs).


Translation: "Trannies are grooooss! Everyone who disagrees with me is a brainwashed, cola-drinking, michael jackson-loving, we-are-the-world-singing, liberal hippie zombie sodomite"

Please stop with your defensive shit-stirring nonsense. Shit's getting really obnoxious.

You're not really adding anything productive to this discussion by making a blanket statement about how you're being reverse-persecuted for disliking trans people instead of actually giving a thought-provoking argument about your beliefs and why you hold them. That makes giving a shit about your opinions one way or the other pretty damn difficult.
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Zero_Nowhere
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Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:11 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:40 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
These conversations can't go anywhere. It's either:

(a) I agree with the government, big media, major corporations and everyone leftist (90% of the world) that this is a great thing! In fact, it should be our goal.

or

(b) I'm a heretic and I denounce the greatest ideological trope of our time (equality at all costs).


If you're going to play the edgy rebel card, it helps if you at least pick a topic where it works. Racism, for example.

Transexuality isn't exactly something that society protects - if it was, there wouldn't be quite so many instances of trans people miraculously falling down stairs while in police custody, or being put into holding cells with people of the other gender, etc. We wouldn't have the trans panic defense still in use either, nor very real risk of someone being murdered for outing themselves as a post-SRS transsexual.

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RainbowPrius19
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:10 pm
Posts: 86
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:43 pm 
 

Since when was it a problem in metal? Plus it does not change the song so why would someone care. I would find it highly annoying though if someone made a album all about how hard it was being a transsexual .
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crises79
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Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 5:50 am
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:43 pm 
 

It sorta ended Life of Agony...
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