I think this is interesting, and should finally quell any doubt over the necessity of treatment for some, as their brain chemistry is at odds with how their body has developed or was never clear at birth and was decided (sometimes wrongly) by the medical profession, however well meaning.

Gender is not a social construct to the level some believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Some men are born, mentally a woman, but most aren't. Has little to do with social conditioning.

Most of the examples here are oddly specific....not really disproving conventional wisdom about gender and sex. Quoting some sort of condition that affects 1/500,000 or a specific person, doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of "well a woman has these chromosomes and a male these". I mean, just because I smoke a pack a week and run five miles a day doesn't put me in the position to say how cigarettes aren't really harmful to the lungs.

you do have a point there. I kind of have mixed opinions on gender..
I don't agree with that whole "YEAH NO YOU HAVE A DICK YOU ARE A MALE DEAL WITH IT" shit. I mean, if people are born gay, why can't people be born with a different gender in their mind? Who someone is is ultimately up to them, I think. I have no problem with anything that has to do with someones sexuality or gender identity and I don't see why anyone should. I do however kind of understand how it might make someone a little uncomfortable, if the concept is foreign to them, but if it's anything past "umm that's weird but ok.." you're a prick. and even that is pushing it. If something is completely not a choice, people should not be hated for it.
However... gender by a literal/traditional/etc definition is pretty much dick = man and vagina = female. Liberal and accepting views don't invalidate dictionaries and such, yknow?
But I guess I don't totally agree with the old definition of gender. Perhaps it's time it changed, eh?

Anyways, in regards to metal, I could care less. A person is a person and what they want to fuck (unless it's like my wife or my dog or something) or what they have/should have in their pants is not going to make me hate or like them any more or less. Like a lot of people in this thread have already stated - If they make good music, I'll buy their shit.

Contemplating Kermit there didn't really articulate his idea too well, but it is worth repeating: rare and random genetic and developmental disorders are just that, and do not really reflect the general situation. They might be interesting, but outside the most liberal ideas, they do not really mean all that much; the mainstream people will still be people with defined sexes and genders, and while a tiny fraction of a minority with different combinations is worth taking into account in specific circumstances, it sure isn't a reason to start rewriting dictionaries or imposing some pseudo-PC definitions on the overwhelming majority.

And still, that does not mean their liberties and choices should be limited in any sense. Because it harms no one else.

^ Nah that's pretty much it. I could've put it in better words. I just find it odd that this is one of the few cases (outside of more radical stuff, like white supremacy) that people will point to minority and extremely specific cases to make a point. I'm not criticizing the people themselves, just the odd language and examples used here, that in no way would be used in other fields.

Yeah, people are born this way, and that's that, methinks, of course no one should limit them, I didn't mean to come off as if to insinuate that.

I wasn't sure what he was referring to specifically, cuz tbh I've only skimmed the thread.
I was mostly going off the part where he said he smokes and runs a lot, but can't say smoking isn't bad for you.
By that I thought he meant something along the lines of "you may say you're not but you're still technically you're biological gender"

You serious? Someone who's missing a penis brought up to believe he's a woman from birth by a professional psychiatrist still believes he's a man and that counts for nothing? He couldn't see himself as a woman no matter how much he was trained to be. That may not disprove the idea of gender as a social construct but it certainly counts against it.

Agreed.

EDIT: actually that's pretty much what I was trying to say

also, this is gonna sound really fucking stupid,

what's cis? is it just like straight, and the gender you were born with?

noones ever actually told me.

"cis" is a term originating in chemistry, a science I know little about... like just about everything. Cis is the opposite of trans and in recent years it's gained a following among the trans communty, most noticeably among the wretched social justice army of the tumblr crowd, where it's meaning is something of a slur for "normals", whatever that is (though I've seen comments denying this when called out on it).

I will prescribe death therapy to all of my potential self mutilating meat slabs. I'm professional as hell.



But in all seriousness, this is a very interesting topic. Sure my views are harsh, but when thinking scientifically it makes absolutely no sense for one to support a drastic genital modification. Sure there are psychological arguments, but one must waive them for purely medical reasons first. There are actual complications from surgery that could totally negate any of the potential psychological positives. Note that potential is the key word in that sentence. The psychological benefits are not guaranteed, yet surgical complications have an actual statistical figure. And say the surgery goes well and the patient is left with an artificial orifice/appendage,they still lack the hormones and the internal organs to be naturally male. Living a life fully dependent on chemicals just to maintain masculine/feminine aesthetics is a very drastic measure to achieve happiness, but to each their own. If one is successful enough to finance such an operation, then so be it. It really isn't my business, but if a patient asked my opinion, I'd tell them how I feel about such surgery.

Well the whole notion of "social construct" is another way of saying brainwashed... but through society!

It's not a stupid question, don't worry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

ohh k so I was right it's a word for "normal" people without using the word normal because that implies it's abnormal to be gay/trans/etc.
thank you.

For more information on the term cis, please watch this highly informative video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2V2QVvJlt4

..wat

rood

I have nothing against trans- people, but I have to say I'm kind of...confused by the whole "trans" thing. Homosexuality and cross dressing don't confuse me at all (homosexuality has basically been proven to be quite natural, and since I've been around gays and lesbians all my life I've never felt any kind of fear or prejudice towards them, and for cross dressing...well, gendered-clothing is just a social construct, and besides that, skirts are comfy as hell), but trans- confounds me, it seems kind of reactionary, and it almost validates a lot of ideas about "proper" gender roles- if you have these characteristics, you should be this gender! But such gender roles are arbitrary as far as I'm concerned; I guess I think much more in terms of "sex" than "gender", and as a side effect just kind of think that what you're born with is what you have, and how you act or feel doesn't change that, and that you shouldn't need to change that to be comfortable in your body/with your mentality. Like, if I decided I was a Nigerian, hispanic Jew born in China, that wouldn't stop the fact that I'm American born and come from Norwegian/English/Scottish/Irish/French descent. Maybe being a straight white guy has something to do with the way I interpret such things, and I've also never really felt too identified with any gender roles, so really that whole area is kind of alien to me, even though I do carry some pretty typically masculine traits (at least much more than any feminine ones). Anyways, I'm still cool with any trans- people I meet, they aren't hurting anyone so why should I care, I just...don't get it. And see a lot of parallels between some trans- views of gender and some more...socially conservative ones that are interesting, to say the least.

@CrustAsFuckExistence, I think I really understand what you are saying about not identifying with gender roles and how it seems reactionary. I knew a transgendered person who was biologically female but spoke of feeling male where I as a biological male never once have felt male or female, I just feel like myself so the concept was very alien to me.

Napero's most recent post in this thread provides the reasoning for why I have refused to ever describe myself as cisgendered. Since Dylbean mentioned the diagnosis being updated, I think this link where they DSM-V describe renaming Gender Identity Disorder to Gender Dysphoria is pertinent to the discussion: http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2012/07/23/dsm-replaces-gender-identity-disorder-gender-dysphoria

No prob. Yeah .. in it's quest for proper representation and clarity, gender theory has made some things very confusing. "Can't I just be me?" "NO. YOU MUST BE QUANTIFIED!!"

This is actually quite interesting... I am a male, and I've always Identified myself as such because I show typical male traits (having a penis, facial hair, attraction to females, etc); however, I never gave any though as to what gender I 'felt' I was. You're right, it is a very foreign idea. How am I supposed to know what a male is supposed to feel like and what a female is supposed to feel like. Furthermore, how would I have any idea what being a female would feel like since it's not something I've ever experienced? I also just feel like myself. I never considered that each gender could have a supposed identity about it as opposed to my identity being a decision made on an individual level...

Anyone else have a female friend that describes herself as 'just another one of the guys' and yet besides playing video games and making fart jokes, she's just another ordinary girl. I mean, I guess I just don't understand where feelings such as "I am not actually the sex I was born as" can originate. The only thing I can really think of off the top of my head is in the case of homosexuality - one thing that may cause a person to doubt they belong in their gender would be attraction to the same gender which is obviously not normal. How do you know if you're straight and TG, or just a homosexual non-TG?

Seems more that they attribute their personal desires with societal constructs. We have been told that playing video games and wanting to fuck women are male traits, so clearly any woman who wants to do these things is just a man trapped in a woman's body. Bullshit. She is a lesbian who wants to have some fun instead of conforming to the rather stringent confines of what "womanhood" generally entails.

I absolutely refuse to call some guy who had his cock sewn inside of itself a "female" because he is too uncomfortable with the gender he was born as. I will not play that game, and I am not here on this planet simply to validate the derision of people with delusional sexual issues. In fact, its pretty fun calling transsexual people by their "actual" gender. They don't like that much.

I think it is a good idea for you to do that. It would be a mistake for you to disguise yourself as a person with empathy; above such petty vindictiveness.

How is that vindictive? Definitely poor word choice on your part, as I really have no stakes in their sexuality, and ultimately, no reason to exact revenge on confused homosexuals. That being said, it should be made clear that I do not give one feathered flying fuck what somebody's sexual preferences are. I just believe in honesty. Perhaps we differ in this (apparently grey) area.

My word choice is correct. You are exacting revenge on them, for the slight of passively imploring you to take their feelings into consideration when directly talking to them, by going out of your way to offend and hurt them. As you say, the actual situation of their sexual and gender status doesn't affect you, so your hostility is not based on that, but rather your offense at being expected to demonstrate a baseline level of considered empathy in your deportment whether you agree with their views on gender and sexuality as a matter of scientific fact (though you have expressed a conviction that these are settled questions and that their views are objectively wrong) or not. It is my assessment that that is petty, in part because these aren't settled questions and one particular perspective enforced as fact may prove to be wrong.

Prophet, you just came back from a 1 week ban, my advice is that you change your tone because it is truly irrespectful and John has the right to call you on this.

To my knowledge, TPM, studies have been done that show that transexuals do (or some at least) have the wrong brain for their body, or vice versa. Essentially an MTF transexual does have the mind of a woman, or close to it, so calling one "gay" is very innacurate.

Well, your advice is based entirely on your opinion, but it obvious that red opinions are worth more than beige ones. I do understand John's point, but I don't think what I am doing is nearly as petty or offensive as either of you are making it out to be. I don't believe people have the ability to transcend genders and my remarks regarding the subject will demonstrate that clearly. If you don't want to have conflicting opinions, why have a message board? I have friends who are in "the business" for this kind of stuff, and we can argue these points, poke some fun and not ban each other at the end of the night. We get along quite well despite my apparently lewd tone, actually.

Balor, are you really saying that men and women have different types of brains? I would equate any difference in brain activity to hormones. And for the record, I actually dont even care if somebody wants to mutilate their downstairs. It makes the world a lot more interesting. I just don't like the expectation that I change my wording to suit their bizarre life decisions. If somebody sewed wings onto their back and breathed fire at me I would not call them a dragon.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193

I think that's the study I read. As for the legitimacy of a post-op MTF body, I'm not honestly sure whether I'd describe it as male or female, but I suppose it's enough that it looks and feels right to these people.

I like to remind you that you are intentionally being obnoxious because you have a pattern of doing so. One particular case may or may not be a case of virulent bigotry but the pattern is pretty clear and thus warrants a consistent and forceful rebuffing. You bring this on yourself. Maybe your friends do find you charming. They must be charming too.

Incidentally, for all you out there in metal-archives land, none of the mods or admins are reds, nor are the majority of gender theorists.

His name is the colour red.. That is all. No implication outside of that, if you thought I was alluding to something else.

And please, do spare me the elaborate character assessment, as you have it all wrong. Not only have you grossly mistaken my intentions, but you have drawn quite a few senseless conclusions as if out of a hat.

Communism has nothing to do with the subject of this thread and I didn't even said my opinion on the matter, I'm merely moderating it.

The allegations of communism are not in my court, and if this were even a relevant theme, I wouldn't care as politics do not interest me in the slightest. I was only saying that it is a subjective issue, but that mods are the ones whose opinions have the strongest bearing on what is deemed an "acceptable opinion" to be voiced. I'm going to let this go now.

Whatever the truth is, these people suffer a high incidence of physical violence just for the "heinous crime" of not identifying with the sex their genitalia would automatically dictate


I just read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Teena



How about if that was your child

I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why anybody would give so much of a shit about what somebody else is doing with themselves. I'm gonna blame the Christians, just cause.

I don't get it, your blaming Christians just because you can (i.e. no reason)? Or because they're agaisnt such things. Also, most of the people committing violence agaisnt ts are guys who find out that they're gfs/prostitutes are actually guys rather than real women. Other than that, I think neo-nazi skinheads are probably more likely to beat up a ts person rather than a christian, also on a personal note are you muslim?

TPM is anti-muslim. The thing about blaming christians was a joke.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? Besides which, I never actually defended the status quo US healthcare system, only doubted the efficacy of the Obamacare system. And later I changed my opinion to "anything would be better than the current system" anyway, which you know because we talked about it. This just seems like a cheap attempt to undermine my credibility based on misinformation.


Well this is just rather full of nonsense. First of all, why does surgery not seem like a sensible solution for this mental health problem, when it is proven to be totally effective in helping to cure it? Don't you think that if removal of certain fingers somehow cured schizophrenics resistant to other treatments that they would be doing it left and right? I thought you were a pragmatist. Isn't the first things engineers ask "does it work?" ("when's lunch" being a close second). Bodies and minds are not two utterly separate things, as you're implying.

As has been said elsewhere, there are essentially three biological components to gender: external sexual organs, internal sexual organs, and mental gender. Some people are born without the matching set, and until we can change the third, it makes by far the most sense to change the first two. It's silly and antiquated to assert some sort of primacy of issues of the body over issues of the mind, and to assume they don't influence one another profoundly.


Are you kidding? You realize surgeons routinely perform cosmetic surgeries, right? Yes, most of them taxes don't pay for, but in many they do, such as healthy people born with deformities. Also, I hope you realize that all reputable places that perform sex reassignment surgery require extensive psychological testing first. This surgery comes with the gold stamp of approval from psychology. Around 41% of trans people in the US have attempted suicide at some point in their lives. I think if a little surgery can help them, it's not too much to ask.

I don't personally understand why some people get so uptight about transsexuality. If a person was born mentally female and physically male and wants to make her body match her mine - what business is it of mine? Furthermore, it's not exactly going to bring the end of the world if she takes that path. And I have no problem calling a MTF a she and a FTM a him. I think it's silly sometimes how upset some people get over a thing such as this. If you don't like transsexuals, stay away from them. Problem solved.

On a slightly different topic, I think the metal community as a whole would be a good place for acceptance. Heavy metal, since it's beginnings, has always had a sort of rebel streak to it, a "fight the norm" sort of mentality. All of my metalhead friends are some of the most open-minded, accepting people out there.

Also, when I was stationed in Hawaii I befriended a MTF transsexual. She was a kind hearted person, open-minded, and just wanted to live a happy life. I saw her as a good person - who cares what's between her legs.

My two cents. Three, technically.