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Marag
Veteran

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:55 pm
Posts: 2659
Location: down there where chaos prevails
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:52 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
Tell us more. Do you think the government has the power or the intention to make things more peaceful? What does the future's scenario look like to you?

No. Drug cartels and other criminal groups have too much power and influence to be beaten by the government, unless they have some sort of long term plan or the willingness to make shit crumble and explode. As it is, they are mostly focused on solving superficial matters, or doing superficial things to solve complicated matters. There is also the fact that the government is corrupt as hell and many politicians are directly involved with crime.

What does the future looks to me? Honestly, I have no idea, I've been out of touch with what happens in this country. Though with Brazil getting richer and it's population less miserable, violence decreased compared to 10, 20 years ago, but the problem is a deeply-rooted sickness, and the way I see things, just feeding the average citizen with television, fancy cellphones and McDonalds will not solve this.

But I don't think this thread is about Brazil.

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2001
Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:35 pm 
 

Marag wrote:
But I don't think this thread is about Brazil.

That's true, but it's somewhat difficult, I think, for Americans (or other countries where violence isn't so prevalent) to imagine because around here the guns discussion seemingly has either to do with toys or tyranny, without really thinking through the scenario and actual likelihoods involved in wide-spread guns. So thanks for your perspective.

Like you, I've kind of lost track of what's going on in this country. It's always easy to think that the rest of the place works just like the part one is in, especially if it's peaceful. It's pretty hard to imagine living in a different kind of violence. If we did, the future would look very strange. These days, it's really only in the hood and the bleed over from the hood that makes the street at all violent. Whereas it sounds a lot more pervasive and random where you are. If Brazil was more heavily armed, more people would die. Whereas gun enthusiasts here seem to think that more guns would keep us safer. Interesting disparity.

edit:
Also, this thread is about conceptions of the future. Instead of the government stopping crime, do you think the criminal groups could take over the government? I mean in an overt way, not a shadowy one.


on general topic:
Are places like Australia, as the beast in black mentioned, less offended by strong gun laws because of a more peaceful culture to begin with? How much self-defense is actually needed in your areas?

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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1051
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:44 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:


on general topic:
Are places like Australia, as the beast in black mentioned, less offended by strong gun laws because of a more peaceful culture to begin with? How much self-defense is actually needed in your areas?


short answer: just about none. Certainly not of the "deadly force" variety. Not to say that crime doesnt happen, but when it does it's not often involving heavy firepower. I have never known anyone who owned a firearm (let alone a handgun) who was not a farmer or hunter.

But then, like almost all commonwealth countries, common law has dictated that the state has the monopoly on armed force. This stems, historically, from the desire to prevent armed insurrection among her majesties subjects. Historically, the British (and their colonies with the exception of the USA) had a gutsfull of armed and disgruntled neer-do-wells after the English Civil war and the Jacobite rebellions.
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Marag
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Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:55 pm
Posts: 2659
Location: down there where chaos prevails
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:48 am 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
These days, it's really only in the hood and the bleed over from the hood that makes the street at all violent. Whereas it sounds a lot more pervasive and random where you are.

Kinda, but not really. There is a lot of disparity between where I live(the industrial, more or less rich and developed south/southeast) and the rest of the country. Brazil is a fucking big country, and I don't have much idea about what happens up there. I can say that where I live, violence is too mostly associated with "the hood", but the bleed over is much bigger, and more intense too. There is a lot of random violence too commited by unstable citizens, but as far as I know, most of it is because of "career criminals", thugs, etc.

I don't have any experience with the other regions of my country, but the poorer parts such as the Amazon and northeast seems to fit more your descripition of "pervasive and random".

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
Also, this thread is about conceptions of the future. Instead of the government stopping crime, do you think the criminal groups could take over the government? I mean in an overt way, not a shadowy one.


No. I think they would likely prefer something more subtle such as connections in the government(which they already do anyway), and I don't think there is a group strong enough to take on the government directly. We are not as bad, as say, Mexico, or Colombia. But who knows what they could do if they showed enough interest. From the few times I remember criminals groups acting in a overt way, they raised hell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2006_ ... o_violence

And by the way, many groups have technically taken over the government on many slums, effectively ruling the place. Since many of these slums are big as cities, it's something notable.

These articles explain things better than I do, you might want to read them
http://www.cfr.org/brazil/brazils-power ... ang/p11542
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Brazil


Hope my perspective can be of any use for this.

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:14 am 
 

Slums as big as cities .. ouch.

I will read 'em. Thanks for your perspective.

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foul body autopsy
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:52 am
Posts: 144
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:56 pm 
 

Bezerko wrote:
TheUglySoldier wrote:
I know that smart people who have guns store them in more secure places, but not everyone with a gun is smart - at least not the ones who are likely to look down the barrel whilst cleaning them, and I've heard a few stories about kids playing with their parents gun, and then it goes off and kills their mate.

I'm not saying I have the answer, but I feel more secure knowing that if someone has a problem with me here, they are far, far, far less likely to be able to start shooting.

Edit: Also, cool idea for a thread!


Pretty sure it's legally required to have secure storage for firearms in Aus. Also, that's not irresponsible storage, that's pure idiocy leaving a weapon loaded.


Yeah i have a friend in Australia that has a rifle for going hunting. He had to buy a safe, the police went to his house for an inspection to make sure it's bolted down etc....

Not a fan of guns to be honest. They just fall into too many irresponsible hands and lead to unnecessary deaths.
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lancasterdrummer
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:13 pm
Posts: 38
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:49 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
lancasterdrummer wrote:
I don't own any guns, but then again I also don't have any adequacy issues or a case of "little man's syndrome."

Man breaks into your home, carrying two pistols.

What do?


Let him take whatever he wants, objects can be replaced.

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TheOldOne
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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:05 pm
Posts: 755
Location: Stalling at the present time
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:04 pm 
 

lancasterdrummer wrote:
Zelkiiro wrote:
Man breaks into your home, carrying two pistols.

What do?


Let him take whatever he wants, objects can be replaced.


Zelkiiro never specified that he was only going to rob you. Suppose he decides that he also wants to rape you, what now?
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Delta_Wing
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Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:20 pm
Posts: 836
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:27 pm 
 

I'm going to get shit for this, but I don't care. My opinions are specifically aimed at middle class America, who have this crazy fear of impending hordes of armed invaders raiding their homes and raping their women and children and therefore are ultra pro gun. I call it the "what if" mentality. This paranoid need for self defense creates a world of fear in their minds 24/7. A lot of it is overreaction to what they see in the media. They create their own world of fear ("It could happen to me"), when in reality 99% of people, who do not engage in criminal activity, are relatively safe at home and on the street with a little bit of common sense. Sure bad things happen to good people at the hands of criminals and psychopaths, but bad things also happen when airplanes crash or collide, cars crash, food born illness break out, etc. This perceived notion that the need for guns will make you safer is insane, when in reality there are so many other things that are outside of your control that can cause you harm and death.

I am not anti-gun by any means of the word, but I also do not feel the need to cling to one or carry one to go shopping. My family is comprised of hunters and even gun collectors, but all of this "I need to get a gun & CCP to protect myself" or "if I had gun and had been at this crime scene it never would have happened" the middle class in America is constantly spewing is just mind numbing and in my opinion dangerous and self defeating.

In middle class America your home being invaded or you being killed in a mass shooting is about as likely to happen as a plane falling out of the sky and killing you. But people tend to be control freaks and feel they can prevent everything. If you really need the hassle of carrying a gun 24/7 to feel safe, I truly feel sorry for you and the weight you are carrying on your shoulders. The world must be a scary place to you, and how can you enjoy it.

"But what if?"

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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
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Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:42 pm 
 

On the flip side, no way a country could ever invade the United States and win.

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Delta_Wing
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:20 pm
Posts: 836
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:03 pm 
 

Bezerko wrote:
On the flip side, no way a country could ever invade the United States and win.


That would mean that they would have already defeated or extremely weakened the U.S. military to get onto U.S. soil, so that is a very unlikely scenario. Then a guerilla war breaks out in the streets and countryside and at that point would the world still be worth living on with the potential use of nukes prior to all of this happening??

But that's just another what if theory.

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lancasterdrummer
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:13 pm
Posts: 38
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:13 pm 
 

Zelkiiro never specified that he was only going to rob you. Suppose he decides that he also wants to rape you, what now?[/quote]

Well, as long as we are playing with hypothetical situations, what if he wants to shoot the boogeyman in my closet? What if he wants to shoot bedbugs? What if the guns are just water pistols? Please let's keep asking silly questions about situations that in all likelihood won't happen anytime soon.

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2001
Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:54 pm 
 

lancasterdrummer: it's worth thinking about, but I doubt it's worth making a stink over. What IF the guy wanted to rape? That's a lot more likely than him having squirt guns. I'd like to be able to shoot a rapist in the face. But for that I'd need a gun .. but perhaps more importantly, I'd need a perimeter alarm system and a secure home.

This whole thread is a mixture of hypothetical and realistic. I initiated this thread as a chance to explore hypotheticals, anyway.

Humor is not beyond the scope of this thread.

--
edit:
Delta Wing: A lot of the people you're talking about watch the news and a lot of cable TV. Also they grew up on mainstream broadcasting and the plethora of vivid example ads that instilled the fear of home and country invasion. Not a few of them lived through the cold war or fought in Korea or Vietnam, or grew up at the knee of WWII vets and perhaps shared turkey once or twice with WWI vets. A lot of them have family in the military or are military families. It's not particularly unlikely. Ghettos have weapons because they're scared of the same things as the country and its middle class, seems to me, but on a local scale instead: invasion, abuse, and murder. Same thing everyone's afraid of. Adaptations differ.

Bezerko: I'm not at all certain of this, but it seems like more of a reason to not be invaded is economic. Why would China bother to invade the US when they own the lion's share of its national debt?
--

In a related note, I recently reflected on my gangster rap beef in the FFA, and I was misguided, getting caught up in principle and those are generally insubstantial. I only mention this because people make violence with whatever they have available and what's the most effective. Economic wars are fought .. should we eliminate economy? We live in a world of weird. There's nothing that pleading can do about it. How do we adapt? If certain conditions change, what could that make the future look like?

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soul_schizm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 am
Posts: 628
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:53 pm 
 

I can't even begin to imagine how the US would stop gun ownership, even if the 2nd amendment were to be repealed.

Imagine the police or the army going around "collecting guns." What a nightmare.

Frankly, I think we are too far down the road of gun ownership to ever go back. The US is a gun-owning society, and the most we will ever be able to do is figure out the best way to arrange that society. For better or worse.

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Grave_Wyrm
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:40 pm 
 

A nightmare indeed.

One scenario guns would be very useful would be in the case of economic collapse. I wouldn't mind an armed society nearly so much if it was a responsible community with mutual aid. And honestly, I wouldn't mind being armed what with people doing bath salts.

And after reading Marag's links -- if I were in Brazil, I'd already be carrying a gun .. provided I could afford one.


(I remember Dave Foley describing himself as a Canadian: "well, it's like an American, but without a gun.")

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PostMetalActivist
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:07 pm
Posts: 194
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:13 pm 
 

I think it's a great idea. More guns = Less gun violence.

Pretty sure that's been proven multiple times. All the mass murders that happen are usually in areas where gun control is enforced and the average person doesn't have a firearm, and therefore can't shoot back.

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soul_schizm
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:02 pm 
 

I'd like to see the study that proves it. Though I haven't really looked deeply into it, my impression has been that there isn't solid proof either way.

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Rild
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Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:38 pm
Posts: 623
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:56 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
A nightmare indeed.

One scenario guns would be very useful would be in the case of economic collapse. I wouldn't mind an armed society nearly so much if it was a responsible community with mutual aid. And honestly, I wouldn't mind being armed what with people doing bath salts.



Communities raising small defensive militias is a good thing, we don't want the centralized state to have a monopoly on force. The problem is that so many militiamen have completely irrational worldviews. But if their behavior is generally tame and predictable, does it matter? My understanding is that most militias in the states have a live and let live ethos, they aren't waiting to impose a crypto-theocracy on everyone as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

It seems that rational people tend not to be paranoid enough to participate in such activities. But maybe, if the stability of industrial civilization is not long for this world, it would not be such a bad idea! Aren't the reports on climate change by mainstream scientists a better reason to raise a militia than the Rapture?
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Last edited by Rild on Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:58 pm 
 

lancasterdrummer wrote:
Zelkiiro wrote:
Man breaks into your home, carrying two pistols.

What do?


Let him take whatever he wants, objects can be replaced.

TheOldOne wrote:
Zelkiiro never specified that he was only going to rob you. Suppose he decides that he also wants to rape you, what now?

Or maybe he just hates you and wants you dead as shit.
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WitchCraft
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:19 am
Posts: 118
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:17 pm 
 

I don't see why a law abiding citizen should be denied gun ownership just because someone else does not like the idea of firearms. Or that every so often a nutjob goes and murders multiple people. It is unfortunate when it happens, but restricting decent people will not solve, or even diminish the violent crime issue. If someone wants to kill you, they will find a way to try. The black market, for example, is a great way to illegally obtain...anything.

And, farther back in the thread someone compared the United States' gun crime rate with the UK's, Poland's, and another country (can't remember). I find that comparison skewed when you look at each country's population size. Of course the United States is going to have more crime related issues when we have a vastly larger population than Great Britain and Poland.

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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 1772
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:27 pm 
 

soul_schizm wrote:
I'd like to see the study that proves it. Though I haven't really looked deeply into it, my impression has been that there isn't solid proof either way.

Libertarian and general nutjob (yet moderately qualified) John Lott penned the provocatively titled non-fic More Guns, Less Crime, which highlighted that stricter gun control laws seemingly lead to more crime. I pretty much disagree with all of his conclusions, but he still makes strong cases with solid data and I have yet to see anyone actually disprove them.
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Rild
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Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:38 pm
Posts: 623
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:19 pm 
 

WitchCraft wrote:
And, farther back in the thread someone compared the United States' gun crime rate with the UK's, Poland's, and another country (can't remember). I find that comparison skewed when you look at each country's population size. Of course the United States is going to have more crime related issues when we have a vastly larger population than Great Britain and Poland.

No, crime rates are proportional and have nothing to do with population size. A town of 1000 with 10 murders a year has a much higher homicide rate than a city of 10,000 with 30 murders a year, even though the city has a larger number of homicides.

The real problem behind the gun violence in the US is not legal gun availability, its violent criminal gangs of poor, usually black or hispanic young people who slaughter each other with illegal guns. This is more a problem relating to drug war policies and the despair of rotting inner city ghettos. Would it be much different if coke dealers were stabbing each other instead of shooting each other?

Switzerland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world and their gun violence problem is infintessimal.
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