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ralfikk123
Waffle

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:14 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:14 pm 
 

So wait wait wait, did the dragon theft happen in the book/s?
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:26 pm 
 

No, it was said by at least 2 posts in the 4th page.
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DanFuckingLucas
Witchsmeller Pursuivant

Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:30 am
Posts: 7555
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:25 pm 
 

Seriously, me and my housemate were all WTF? at most of that episode.
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Messiah_X
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 am
Posts: 763
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:36 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
I really wish they'd introduce Ramsay already. :(


This is pure speculation, but I think they will do Ramsay this season after seeing the last episode, here's my basic theory:
Spoiler: show
Roose Bolton DID mention sending his Bastard to retake Winterfell. Essentially this is what everyone believes happens in the book, that Theon sacked Winterfell and Ramsay came in and saved the day.

At this point, its VERY unlikely that they will introduce Reek. On the other hand, having Ramsay simply march into Winterfell would probably ruin the biggest twist in the book. So as a compromise, the writers need to use someone else as "Reek"

My money is on Dagmer Cleftjaw, who was essentially a non-character in the books. If I remember right, he stayed behind to hold Torrhen's Square and was defeated by Rodrik in the battle. In the show, he is not only present in Winterfell, but is present as an advisor to Theon, complete with all the conniving, underhanded advice thus far (led him to the idea to take Winterfell, convinced him to execute Rodrik). Also note that the book Dagmer was an old weathered pirate. Dagmer in the show is smaller frame, generally nondescript, but with that same hint of smug madness and the sense of uneasiness when the character is present. If Dagmer suggests the miller's sons thing to Theon, I'd be totally convinced

As far as Reek goes, it would be hard to introduce Ramsay the same way as the book, since his character was a background name for most of the season, and was a reference to a background subplot involving characters who have not been introduced on the show (and had little importance in the book). Having Roose explain the reveal might not be as interesting in the long run, but at least people will be able to understand it.

As far as casting goes, I can't say I'm too happy with the look of the character. Always pictured him with long hair and a more sinister snakish appearance. The actor seems to portray the character fairly well though, so I guess we'll wait and see.

tl;dr I think Dagmer will replace Reek as our Bastard of Bolton, and we'll get a very similar ending to the book this season

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ralfikk123
Waffle

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:14 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:59 pm 
 

Than WTF. How can they just change the story??! What else have they changed?! :o
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Messiah_X
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 am
Posts: 763
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:27 pm 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
Than WTF. How can they just change the story??! What else have they changed?! :o


Details and plot progressions mostly. The overall story has not been changed. Some changes have been very unnecessary and distracting, while others have actually benefited the film media. Certain things that have been cut would have been impractical, nonsensical, or just plain boring on television (for example back in Season One, I actually heard people complain that they cut the scene of Catelyn ascending the mountains to the Eyrie. Do we really need to spend an entire episode on mountain climbing?). Other things have been cut or changed for budget and casting reasons, and some things have been completely rewritten to make sense in the context of the show. Its hard for readers like myself sometimes, but overall I've been impressed with the way they've stayed as true to the main story of the books as possible given time and budget restrictions, and the way some things work better in print than on film.

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HellBlazer
Veteran

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:48 am
Posts: 3191
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:10 pm 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
Than WTF. How can they just change the story??! What else have they changed?! :o


You know Roz? That fucking annoying redhead whore who keeps showing up all over the place in completely useless, gratuitous scenes? She's not in the books. At all. Yes, she has more screen time than some of the real characters.

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ralfikk123
Waffle

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:14 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:18 pm 
 

Wow. You know, It makes me wonder if HBO is trying to beat a 'most nude scenes in a TV show' record with GoT.
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Razakel
Nekroprince

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:55 pm 
 

I think it's more important to make an awesome TV show than to make a perfect adaptation. Of course, that's easy for me to say since I haven't read the books but the fact remains that I've loved every single episode from both seasons.

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:18 am 
 

Perhaps, but the show could be even more awesome if they did what the book did. Instead we get no Blackfish, no Reeds, no Reek, no goddamn Patchface, a messed up Harrenhal segment, but more Roz than you can shake a stick at.
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Scorntyrant
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1117
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:47 am 
 

I'd happily shake my stick at Esmé Bianco :)
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:59 am 
 

Messiah_X wrote:
Derigin wrote:
I really wish they'd introduce Ramsay already. :(


This is pure speculation, but I think they will do Ramsay this season after seeing the last episode, here's my basic theory:
[snip]

This has been suggested before and I don't know why. It's complete and utter nonsense. Sometimes I think D&D and the other writers are idiots, but I'm kinda glad that some of the fans aren't writing in their place, no offense...

Spoiler: show
First of all, the actors who plays Dagmer is older than the actor who plays Roose Bolton. And yet you want him to be Roose's son? :lol: Second, why in the seven hells would Ramsay be in the Iron Islands waiting for Theon to embark? Why wouldn't the other Ironborn wonder who the fuck that guy is? It just doesn't make any sense.

It's entirely possible that they have TV-Dagmer replace the "role" of Reek as devil-on-Theon's-shoulders/"adviser" kinda deal, to show that he's suggestible and that the worst of his crimes aren't his own ideas, but there is no way that Dagmer himself is Ramsay himself. There are just way too many plot holes for this to work.


As for the cut characters, I am upset at the lack of Blackfish, Reeds, etc. too, but keep in mind... I did the count, and season 2 introduced 34 new members to the cast (that's just for S2, S1 folks weren't counted). That's a lot of people. Of course, they kept Ros and those other whores around her and that's annoying, but let's be frank, the Blackfish, much as I love him, isn't essential to the story and neither is Patchface. I thought the Reeds were, though (I'd have at least merged Meera and Jojen into one character if that was really needed), and of course Ramsay is essential but I'm 100% sure he'll be cast later since Lord Bolton mentioned him. And now remember, season 3 will introduce yet many more characters: not just the missing folks like Edmure, but also Mance Rayder, Dalla (maybe just an extra), Val (?), Styr (? probably not), Tormund Giantsbane, Thoros of Myr, at least one (hopefully more) of the BwB (Lemoncloak, Tom O' Sevens, Anguy), Roslin Frey, Mace Tyrell, Oberyn Martell, the Kettleblacks (probably merge the brothers into one guy), Grey Worm, Strong Belwas, Qyburn, Vargo Hoat, Daario Naharis, Coldhands, etc... they might recast Beric too, not sure. And still more people to cast in later seasons (Quentyn, Griff, Young Griff, Penny, all those assholes at Meereen... ugh). So it's a really difficult job to decide who to keep and who to cut for the adaptation.
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MacMoney
Man of the Cloth

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:17 pm
Posts: 2013
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:01 am 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
Wow. You know, It makes me wonder if HBO is trying to beat a 'most nude scenes in a TV show' record with GoT.


Off-topic, they already have that record, though maybe they're going for another one. They've also got most profanity and most violent covered as well.

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Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:19 am 
 

Are you sure? Spartacus got pretty explicit there...

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:48 am 
 

I was under the impression that the "most profanity" title went to Deadwood. Has GoT beaten them?
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Azmodes
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:46 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
I was under the impression that the "most profanity" title went to Deadwood. Has GoT beaten them?

When it comes to "cocksucker", it's definitely still ahead.
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Messiah_X
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:56 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
This has been suggested before and I don't know why. It's complete and utter nonsense. Sometimes I think D&D and the other writers are idiots, but I'm kinda glad that some of the fans aren't writing in their place, no offense...

Spoiler: show
First of all, the actors who plays Dagmer is older than the actor who plays Roose Bolton. And yet you want him to be Roose's son? :lol: Second, why in the seven hells would Ramsay be in the Iron Islands waiting for Theon to embark? Why wouldn't the other Ironborn wonder who the fuck that guy is? It just doesn't make any sense.

It's entirely possible that they have TV-Dagmer replace the "role" of Reek as devil-on-Theon's-shoulders/"adviser" kinda deal, to show that he's suggestible and that the worst of his crimes aren't his own ideas, but there is no way that Dagmer himself is Ramsay himself. There are just way too many plot holes for this to work.


Spoiler: show
Ah, I did not take the actor's age into consideration, just that his appearance was much younger than Dagmer from the book :lol:. I still think he'll fill the Reek role to some extent though. I did consider it odd that Ramsay would be on the Iron Islands, but not enough to consider it a plothole. I always got the impression that Roose was already conspiring with Tywin by the time the sack of Winterfell took place, and that it wasn't just a malicious act by Ramsay. The Red Wedding solidified their deal obviously, but it seemed like the betrayal was in the works before that point. In that regard it wouldn't be too far off to drop the Lady Hornwood story (which would not have worked well on TV) and have Ramsay manipulate Theon from the start of his journey instead of from the prison of Winterfell. This scheme might seem like too much was left to coincidence and luck, but then wasn't it also coincidence and luck that Ramsay would be able to change places with Reek to avoid execution, be locked up in Winterfell, and make enough of an impression on Theon to gain a foothold of power?

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:23 am 
 

Randomness.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:30 pm 
 

Let's just say I pretty much entirely agree with this analysis of the episode (there may be book spoilers in the "Book to screen" section below), particularly his points about Arya/Jaqen, Jon/Ygritte, and Robb/"Talisa":
http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes/En ... /#Analysis
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you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
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Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Razakel
Nekroprince

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
Posts: 4868
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:49 pm 
 

MacMoney wrote:
Off-topic, they already have that record, though maybe they're going for another one. They've also got most profanity and most violent covered as well.


The profanity record can't be true. Just off the top of my head I'm pretty sure The Sopranos and The Wire have tenfold more profanity.

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I_Am_Vengeance
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:11 pm
Posts: 1702
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:43 am 
 

Azmodes wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
I was under the impression that the "most profanity" title went to Deadwood. Has GoT beaten them?

When it comes to "cocksucker", it's definitely still ahead.


Spoiler: show
SAN FRANCISCO COCK SUCKER!!!!


Sorry couldn't help myself.
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MacMoney
Man of the Cloth

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:17 pm
Posts: 2013
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:51 am 
 

MacMoney wrote:
Off-topic, they already have that record, though maybe they're going for another one. They've also got most profanity and most violent covered as well.


Seems my post has elicited some comments so let me be more clear: It wasn't aimed at Game of Thrones per se, but HBO in general. What they tend to do with their shows is cram them up with profanity, nudity and violence just because they can due to their cable channel status. I don't think there are any actual records on these things.

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Gelal
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:23 pm 
 

I didn't mind most changes from the first season, but what they're doing with the second confuses me. As previously mentioned, the differences that point to the (hopefully temporary) absence of key characters such as Reek and the Reeds, make me worry with regards to how they'll treat some future events. As do the unnecessary deaths of characters that do not die (at least, not yet) in the novels. And even ignoring all that, they're making up too much stuff, often for no apparent reason whatsoever.
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Derigin
Anthropophagus

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:35 pm 
 

TV shows are not books; books do not read as good TV shows. Why might they be skimming on certain events or killing characters that do not die yet in the story? The reason might be simple; the medium demands it. If a certain event deviates too far from the given plot of the show, or - and more likely - is just too costly to finance, then there likely was an executive decision to cut it. The same is true for actors who might have other priorities/desires, or who may require too much pay per episode. Books are as limited as the paper they're written on; I'd hazard an assumption that the TV show has more pressure placed in it than the book. That said, this is a collaboration between the author and the producers - producers who already know how the book series will end - so they may be looking for ways to expedite the story so they don't require 10+ seasons to do it.

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zingote
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:57 pm
Posts: 78
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:37 pm 
 

HellBlazer wrote:

zingote wrote:
As for the dragon theft, they needed to add something to spice up Dany's story, which is pretty dry in ACOK, outside of the house of the undying.


Dany's book storyline is fine. Yes, not a whole lot happens to her... but then again, there is very little time to dedicate to each character in their 10-episode seasons. There's only four episodes left to the season; the House of the Undying and subsequent events would have filled that up fine, for the little we see Dany each episode. If they wanted to have more content to her arc, maybe they shouldn't have cut the Vaes Tolorro part? Not to mention that the dragon theft idea is just retarded. Who the hell did they send that can massacre a household full of Dothraki warriors and not leave any of their own dead behind? A squad of Jaime Lannisters? And where the hell are Xaro's own guards? Can anyone just walk into the mansion of the richest man in Qarth (congratulations on your new-found wealth by the way, Xaro, I guess..?) and start slaughtering people then leave without a trace? This is nonsense.


Now that you mention it, it does seem weird that the dragon thieves were able to break into Xaro's mansion, get past the Dothraki and steal the dragons. We'll have to wait till next episode to see how it all plays out. Maybe it will serves as a point to get Dany to the House of the Undying. The Vaes Tolorro part wasn't that interesting, so I don't mind that they cut it. I think next season wil offer us a treat on her storyline, assuming of course that the plot from ASOS is followed closely. I wonder how they will portray the Unsullied and Meereen should be a visual treat. My biggest complaint right now is that Dany's character is too damn whiny.

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garthmargengi
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:16 am
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:02 am 
 

Anyone else thinking that most of the acting lately has been cringeworthy (asides from a few exceptions like Cersei or Tyrion)? Holy shit, how can people be so bad at it and still get paid, and what the hell is the director there for?
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:12 am 
 

I've only seen up to episode 4, but the acting has been pretty good as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sold on Dany's ability to impose herself and make demands over others which she consistently somehow does, but other than that all the acting has been good. Maybe Joffrey is hamming it up a bit much now, but he's such a ridiculously vile and evil character I have no major issues with him going the whole hog and into cackling maniacally super villainy. I'd also say that both the new manipulative females (The wife of... Renly? That one who has his own little crown and all, woman is the one who offered to pretend she was a guy for him, I suck at names. And that red haired witch woman) are not really very... human in their styles, and don't seem to be very compelling characters. Which others have been poor to you?
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Messiah_X
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:25 am 
 

Just watched the new episode. Pretty much, next to nothing from the book was in this episode (well, many things were still based on the overall story, but a lot of the details were changed). I have to say for the most part it was enjoyable, despite the HUGE changes from the book.

As much as people seem to be blasting the writers for the way they're handling Qarth, I've actually enjoyed the TV Qarth quite a bit. Sure its been almost completely rewritten now, sure the dragon theft and Xaro and Pyat's coup does not fit the Qartheen culture in the books, but it WORKS as a reimagining of the story. Lets be honest here, as overall story progression goes, Dany's chapters in the book were essentially useless except for A. The House of the Undying (which I expect we'll see this season), and B. Her final chapters which move her story forward. After reading the series several times, I really don't feel like Dany grew as a character much at all because of her experiences in Qarth (besides the prophecy from the House of the Undying). The reimagining works for me, as long as the overall story stays the same. As Derigin said, some things that work great on paper don't work on film, and Dany's chapters in Qarth were generally boring compared to what was going on in Westeros. Not to say that unnecessary action sequences are needed to "spice things up" but this reinvented Qarth just seems more dangerous and brutal, whereas the subtlety of the book Qarth probably would not translate well to TV.

Jon Snow's story change is working for me too, so long as they tie things together in the end. I'm sure they want to emphasize Ygrette as more of a character this season so she has a greater impact next season. My problem is:
Spoiler: show
judging from next week's preview, Ygrette brings Jon to Rattleshirt. I really hope they come up with a convincing way for Jon to kill Quorin, considering the way it played out in the book. TV Jon would probably struggle with the idea without the orders being spelled out and shoved down his throat


The one thing I didn't like was Jaime's scene this episode. There are a lot of "men without honor" in the ASOIAF series, but what they made Jaime do was SO out of character. I'd expect something like that from Ramsay or the Mountain, but I can't imagine Jaime reuniting with a family member, befriending them, and then using them as a worthless pawn in an escape plan. I've never seen Jaime as a major hero in the story, but he's definitely not a cruel villain either (even though he's always been a sarcastic prick, maybe thats why I like him).

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:34 am 
 

Messiah_X wrote:
The one thing I didn't like was Jaime's scene this episode. There are a lot of "men without honor" in the ASOIAF series, but what they made Jaime do was SO out of character. I'd expect something like that from Ramsay or the Mountain, but I can't imagine Jaime reuniting with a family member, befriending them, and then using them as a worthless pawn in an escape plan. I've never seen Jaime as a major hero in the story, but he's definitely not a cruel villain either (even though he's always been a sarcastic prick, maybe thats why I like him).


Yeah, all he wanted was the guard's attention, there could have been many less fatal alternatives to that escape.

Good episode, kind of slow, but a nice balance of all the plot lines.

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:36 am 
 

garthmargengi wrote:
Anyone else thinking that most of the acting lately has been cringeworthy (asides from a few exceptions like Cersei or Tyrion)? Holy shit, how can people be so bad at it and still get paid, and what the hell is the director there for?


the hell you talking about? I think the show is acted greatly.

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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:39 am 
 

I don't know the book, and I haven't seen the episode so I don't know what he does, but the guy kicked a 10 year old out of a tower, he's pretty goddamned villainous to my eyes. I suppose he hasn't done many horrible things since then, other than incesting up a storm, but still he's one of the ones I'm more looking forward to seeing die.
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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:58 am 
 

I don't know how well the show will handle it, but in the novels Jaime is one of the characters that goes through a fair bit of development. Most people hate him at first, what with the Bran tower incident, but few continue to see him as such a black-and-white villain after they start getting to the chapters which play out from his point of view.
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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:43 am 
 

Messiah_X wrote:
Just watched the new episode. Pretty much, next to nothing from the book was in this episode (well, many things were still based on the overall story, but a lot of the details were changed). I have to say for the most part it was enjoyable, despite the HUGE changes from the book.

As much as people seem to be blasting the writers for the way they're handling Qarth, I've actually enjoyed the TV Qarth quite a bit. Sure its been almost completely rewritten now, sure the dragon theft and Xaro and Pyat's coup does not fit the Qartheen culture in the books, but it WORKS as a reimagining of the story. Lets be honest here, as overall story progression goes, Dany's chapters in the book were essentially useless except for A. The House of the Undying (which I expect we'll see this season), and B. Her final chapters which move her story forward. After reading the series several times, I really don't feel like Dany grew as a character much at all because of her experiences in Qarth (besides the prophecy from the House of the Undying). The reimagining works for me, as long as the overall story stays the same. As Derigin said, some things that work great on paper don't work on film, and Dany's chapters in Qarth were generally boring compared to what was going on in Westeros. Not to say that unnecessary action sequences are needed to "spice things up" but this reinvented Qarth just seems more dangerous and brutal, whereas the subtlety of the book Qarth probably would not translate well to TV.

Jon Snow's story change is working for me too, so long as they tie things together in the end. I'm sure they want to emphasize Ygrette as more of a character this season so she has a greater impact next season. My problem is:
Spoiler: show
judging from next week's preview, Ygrette brings Jon to Rattleshirt. I really hope they come up with a convincing way for Jon to kill Quorin, considering the way it played out in the book. TV Jon would probably struggle with the idea without the orders being spelled out and shoved down his throat


The one thing I didn't like was Jaime's scene this episode. There are a lot of "men without honor" in the ASOIAF series, but what they made Jaime do was SO out of character. I'd expect something like that from Ramsay or the Mountain, but I can't imagine Jaime reuniting with a family member, befriending them, and then using them as a worthless pawn in an escape plan. I've never seen Jaime as a major hero in the story, but he's definitely not a cruel villain either (even though he's always been a sarcastic prick, maybe thats why I like him).



Wow, I disagree with everything you said. I find the Dany storyline to be complete and utter nonsense this season. They just make shit up and it's not even good. It's goofy and silly, I groaned when there were a bunch of magical Pyat Prees reappearing and disappearing. And him plotting with Xaro? What? Ugh.

Whereas Jaime was the highlight of the episode for me. His acting and dialogue were just perfect. And he wasn't really out of character, he flung a child out of a window for fuck's sake. Jaime is certainly not above committing murder for self-preservation, including children. Could he have done this escape attempt without fatally harming his cousin? Yeah, that criticism I can accept, but not that it's inherently out of character. He wasn't cruel so much as he was completely cold and pragmatic about his situation: kill a cousin he doesn't care about to save his life. This is cold and ruthless, but it's not sadistic. Book-Jaime cares only for himself and Cersei, no one else. He reacts with utter indifference when he learns of dead relatives (Cleos, his uncle Stafford, etc.). He doesn't even care about his own children by Cersei. (A Storm of Swords)
Spoiler: show
He eventually comes to care for Brienne, of course, but that's much later and part of his redemption arc. The reason Jaime is likeable is because he's witty, and that makes us forgive any crime, really. That, and he does try to redeem himself.
Comparing him to Ramsay and Gregor is silly. Jaime does not rape and torture people for the sheer pleasure of it, come on.

Minus the Dany silliness, I liked the episode. I even liked Ygritte, even though pretty much nothing happened in those scenes, but she was just hilarious and sassy (in a good way). It's a shame those scenes made Jon come across as a complete tool, though. Wish they had given him a few comebacks. But Ygritte herself was cool. I like her. I'm not sure I like where this is going, though.
Spoiler: show
They better not ruin that moment with Qhorin...


Obligatory:
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Belial
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:01 am 
 

I didn't like two things this last episode: what happened with Jon Snow and Jaime Lannister. With Jaime it looked so... easy to escape. Would the guards let him alone with a cousin without keeping an eye on them? There was only one guard who just rushed to the nearly-dead Lannister guy without taking precautions.
I hope to see more of Jaime, I loved that character since the first episode (The things I do for love!).

And I'm starting to hate Jon Snow. He's just too damn stupid.
Did these two scenes happen like that in the books? And are we supposed to know to whom the burned child body belongs to at the end of the episode?

And why do the wildlings call the Men of the Night's Watch "crows"?
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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:14 am 
 

Because they wear black, obviously.
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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:48 am 
 

I'm not a book reader, so I don't know. But, it seems that either the author or HBO are adding stuff into the story-line as they go just to make it more 'interesting'. I don't like that to be honest. Don't like the drastic story changes either, from what I heard is are the originals.
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Animicantus
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:11 pm 
 

I thought the Qarth scene was one of the best in the series do far, even though it's not what happens in the book. In fact, all the changes have been tolerable. The only thing I don't like is we're not getting a lot of the Halfhand, who has a profound impact on Jon Snow's character in the books. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out but I'm confident they'll tie it all together.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:25 pm 
 

Belial wrote:
I didn't like two things this last episode: what happened with Jon Snow and Jaime Lannister. With Jaime it looked so... easy to escape. Would the guards let him alone with a cousin without keeping an eye on them? There was only one guard who just rushed to the nearly-dead Lannister guy without taking precautions.
I hope to see more of Jaime, I loved that character since the first episode (The things I do for love!).

And I'm starting to hate Jon Snow. He's just too damn stupid.
Did these two scenes happen like that in the books? And are we supposed to know to whom the burned child body belongs to at the end of the episode?

And why do the wildlings call the Men of the Night's Watch "crows"?

In the book Jaime isn't chained in a camp, he's in a cell inside a castle called Riverrun, which is the fortress of House Tully (Lord Tully is Catelyn's father, and Catelyn's brother is his heir). No cousin comes to visit him and chit-chat with him, but an escape attempt does happen, but off-screen. Basically they were Lannister envoys sent by Tyrion who plotted the escape, and killed a few Riverrun men in the process but they caught up with Jaime anyway and then confined him to a nastier and more secure cell.

Jon Snow does come across as a complete tool in those scenes, haha. He's not as bad in the book. That banter with Ygritte doesn't happen like that, not word-for-word anyway, though she does tease him about being a virgin and about his vows and so on at some point.

The children's body are intended to be Bran and Rickon, obviously. (book/TV spoilers, warning may spoil next episode)
Spoiler: show
The way it was written in the novel, it was a lot more credible, I actually believed they were dead until the next Theon chapter where his POV reveals what he really did. But that's one thing that's very difficult to translate to TV. A writer can withhold more information on paper than on screen to mislead the reader.


"Crow" is wildling slang for men of the Night's Watch because they wear all black. It's meant to be derisive but some black brothers have adopted the nickname willingly, for example Yoren was often called a "wandering crow" (since he was a recruiter and often going out looking for recruits).
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
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Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Messiah_X
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:50 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Wow, I disagree with everything you said. I find the Dany storyline to be complete and utter nonsense this season. They just make shit up and it's not even good. It's goofy and silly, I groaned when there were a bunch of magical Pyat Prees reappearing and disappearing. And him plotting with Xaro? What? Ugh.


As much as my inner fanboy wants to lash out at the writers for fucking with the source material so much, I actually like this "parallel universe Qarth." What it lacks in the subtlety of the books, it makes up for in real danger. Even on subsequent re-reads of the series, I never felt much SUSPENSE in Dany's chapters. It always felt like a state of uncomfortable limbo where she needed to get back on her feet quickly to achieve her own goals, but not because of any real threat (unless you count book Xaro's incessant come-ons). It wasn't until the House of the Undying that she really HAD to leave. In the TV show, while it's different from the books in almost every possible way, it is a reimagining that works for me. Besides, lets be honest, there weren't a lot of major significant events in the Qarth plot. It was there to move Dany out of the desert, introduce the prophecy at the House of the Undying, hook her up with Whitebeard and Strong Belwas, and then to move her story forward (and out of Qarth). GRRM could have written anything to form a plot around those few important moments in her story and with that in mind, if they get those crucial parts right, so can the show writers. That said, I have to agree with you on the campiness of Pyat Pree's magic. Spellcasting has always been something GRRM has avoided in favor of more ritualistic sorcery, requiring spirituality and sacrifice.

Morrigan wrote:
Whereas Jaime was the highlight of the episode for me. His acting and dialogue were just perfect. And he wasn't really out of character, he flung a child out of a window for fuck's sake. Jaime is certainly not above committing murder for self-preservation, including children. Could he have done this escape attempt without fatally harming his cousin? Yeah, that criticism I can accept, but not that it's inherently out of character. He wasn't cruel so much as he was completely cold and pragmatic about his situation: kill a cousin he doesn't care about to save his life. This is cold and ruthless, but it's not sadistic. Book-Jaime cares only for himself and Cersei, no one else. He reacts with utter indifference when he learns of dead relatives (Cleos, his uncle Stafford, etc.). He doesn't even care about his own children by Cersei. (A Storm of Swords)
Spoiler: show
He eventually comes to care for Brienne, of course, but that's much later and part of his redemption arc. The reason Jaime is likeable is because he's witty, and that makes us forgive any crime, really. That, and he does try to redeem himself.
Comparing him to Ramsay and Gregor is silly. Jaime does not rape and torture people for the sheer pleasure of it, come on.


I probably went a bit overboard with that comparison :lol: but I think the scene just pissed me off. In contrast to what I think of the changes to the Qarth subplot, I really don't think the writers should take too much liberty with the personality of the main characters. Although I admit you make a lot of good points here, and I probably had the Jaime Lannister of the later books in mind when I was watching the episode. On a side note though, I think the scene could have been improved by having Jaime and Alton plan an escape together (which would have been closer to what happened in the book as well) as opposed to killing him for shock value in what was otherwise nothing more than a cliche "sick prisoner" scheme.

Morrigan wrote:
Minus the Dany silliness, I liked the episode. I even liked Ygritte, even though pretty much nothing happened in those scenes, but she was just hilarious and sassy (in a good way). It's a shame those scenes made Jon come across as a complete tool, though. Wish they had given him a few comebacks. But Ygritte herself was cool. I like her. I'm not sure I like where this is going, though.
Spoiler: show
They better not ruin that moment with Quorin...


Spoiler: show
From the preview of next week's episode, it looks like she's taking him to Rattleshirt. And yeah, I hope they can pull off the Quorin thing, although it seems at this point that when it happens, Jon will probably have to figure out what to do himself instead of having those explicit instructions from Quorin. Kind of ironic if this is how it plays out because TV Jon has not been as clever as book Jon, who may actually have been able to figure out that becoming a double agent would be the best course of action without Quorin's instructions.

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The_Beast_in_Black
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:10 am 
 

I didn't mind this episode as much as the last one. I think I've come to terms with the changes now. They've made Qarth really different but I'm finding it at least entertaining enough that I don't care too much anymore.
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