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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:18 pm 
 

I've been asked to stop posting political content on the FFA as my posts were deemed non-sensical and generally poorly though out, so I've made a new thread as instructed.



There have been recent warnings of possible riots happening again here this week, unless those in power start to listen (and more importantly act) to the general publics concerns, and not simply dismiss/ignore them as they have for far too long.

Roger Mosey former head of bbc news, gives a clear indication that something has been wrong for a long time, eveyone has been given a voice except the gemeral public. ALL peoples concerns should be considered - not just those a relative few deem worthy.



We need balanced reporting at all times, not overtly left, right or representing only a few peoples views.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:35 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
I've been asked to stop posting political content on the FFA as my posts were deemed non-sensical and generally poorly though out, so I've made a new thread as instructed.


So, you have your own topic? You poor barstard. Can we rename this "The Mindshadow Zone" or something laughably similar?
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Smoking_Gnu
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:48 pm 
 

Edit: Valid point of Napero's. My apologies.
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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:12 pm 
 

Excuse me while I put on my tinfoil hat.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:34 pm 
 

Acidgobblin should have wrote:
:tinfoil:

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:45 am 
 

Smoking_Gnu wrote:
Err, as I recall you were admonished not for posting within the FFA but for posting about topics that would be relevant to such a narrow microcosm of the board's users as to generate almost no conversation whatsoever. Which seems to be the same case here. Very few people would deny these are discussion-worthy issues, mate, this board just doesn't seem to be the place for them. When I want to talk politics there are a LOT of outlets I'd rather do it than here.

No, I believe the issue was doing so in the FFA. Also I would like to remind you that there is currently a topic about Toronto's crack smoking mayor.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:04 am 
 

mindshadow wrote:
We need balanced reporting at all times, not overtly left, right or representing only a few peoples views.


Oh we do do we? Then pray tell, why is every article or view you post a British one, and at that, one that only has relevance to whatever is going on in your head at the time?

It's quite clear that you are not here to discuss anything, but rather further your agenda, which is great, except no one knows (or I assume, actually cares) what that agenda even is.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:57 am 
 

OK, let's stop being rude to mindshadow here. He's got his own thread, and if there's interest on the board to discuss these issues, it can take place here.

The issue was that mindshadow posted links to various news outlets and articles without a context, without explaining his own agenda in a manner that makes sense to anyone, and expected everybody to take interest and turn to outrage, even if the issues are limited to the UK, and of zero interest to most.

So, unless you want to comment on the issues, do so here, but if you only want to be rude, don't do it. This thread is a good solution to this whole thing. Thank you.
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Pippin_Took
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:14 am 
 

Ok, so in the interests of trying to generate some debate in this thread, I will bite. Initial disclaimer though:
Spoiler: show
I have no intention of getting into a pissing match over UK politics with you Mindshadow, or anyone else, if all that is posted is half-baked accusations, conspiracy theories, put-upon complaints about immigrants, and veiled incoherent whinges about how the BBC is run by European reptile-men. There are some awesome threads on here periodically about social/political issues and whilst I'd agree that a metal forum wouldn't be my first choice of venue, I've been pleasantly surprised before and am, in principal, interesting in participating in this discussion.
Here goes.

So, the day after you were dumped out of the FFA, a report was released, by an independent/academic body at University College London which essentially stated that immigrants to the UK make a net positive contribution to our economy. Here is the full report. The story was reported by, amongst other outlets, the Guardian ('Migrants contribute £25bn to UK economy'), the Financial Times ('Immigration brings economic and fiscal gains to UK, reports show'), The Scotsman ('Immigrants give UK £25bn net contribution - report'), the BBC ('Recent immigrants to UK 'make net contribution'), Channel 4 news ('Migrants contribute £25bn to UK economy'), the Independent ('Immigrants boost the economy says NIESR'), Sky News ('Immigrants Contribute £25bn Tax Boost To UK'), the Express ('Migrants less likely to claim handouts than native Britons, according to new report') -- these are just the UK-based outlets. The findings of the report include the fact that there is a net positive contribution to the UK economy, and furthermore that immigrants are less likely to claim benefits that UK nationals. Despite this, the Telegraph managed to offer the rather equivocal 'Is immigration really a blessing or a curse?' and the Mail went a step further and offered 'How migrants from outside Europe leave a £100billion hole in the public purse: Amount taken in benefits and services is 14% higher than money put back' as their headline. The story which followed, to be fair, was a better reflection of the truth of the study's findings, but hell, who needs to read the article when the headline is so lucid?!

My question to you is this: why do you continue to claim in the face of evidence like this that immigration is bad for the UK? I genuinely do not understand your position, based on your posts in the FFA. It seems vague, ill thought-out, and apparently based on some idea of degrading national cohesion, or sense of Britishness, or some other dubious right-wing-leading fancy. I may have misunderstood you, you may be saying all along that immigration is great: as others have pointed out, it's unclear what you are saying because everything is sort-of coded in this hyperbolic yet opaque outrage. Sub-question, if you're interested, is can you explain why you mistrust certain (unnamed) news outlets. It's not that important, but the example I've posted here is a classic case of our right-wing publications being, in my view, deliberately misleading and reporting content which is twisted to fit their editorial ideology. I want no part of such media, it's totally toxic, and does more damage that anything in entrenching the prejudice and inter-class/community loathing that is sadly all too rife in parts of UK society.

Lastly, please cite and link sources, be explicit, think things through before you post. I doubt many people are going to post in here otherwise. I'm aware this last sentence sounds very patronising, here's a smiley :-P

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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:25 pm 
 

waiguoren wrote:
mindshadow wrote:
We need balanced reporting at all times, not overtly left, right or representing only a few peoples views.


Oh we do do we? Then pray tell, why is every article or view you post a British one, and at that, one that only has relevance to whatever is going on in your head at the time?

It's quite clear that you are not here to discuss anything, but rather further your agenda, which is great, except no one knows (or I assume, actually cares) what that agenda even is.



I post about Britain because this is were I live and I am unfortunate to have grown up witnessing the ever worsening mess past and present governments are leaving -not only us, but future generations. Career politicians no longer represent the people, only pay lip service to them at major referendums, it is obvious their interests only lie with big business.


Some here are trying very hard to ignore logic and reason while insisting that anyone even mentioning immigration can only be a racist.


To reiterate my stance on immigration again, no one can convincingly argue that countries (especially industrialised ones) don't benefit from others labour - I think of how the Irish helped build most of our road systems and housing estates, who's ancestors came over in the eighteenth century to work in the first factories (unfortunately they haven't always been treated well or credited over our history). Our hospitals employ thousands from overseas including India and the Philippines - wouldn't run without them.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:32 pm 
 

Immigration is a tricky issue to begin with, but in Britain's case how on earth do you expect anyone to feel any sympathy for you guys? Genocide in Tasmania, concentration camps in South Africa, the colonization and what followed in the Indian subcontinent, the Opium Wars, the fire bombing of Dresden, the Irish - never before has 'You reap what you sow' sounded more apt to my ears.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:38 pm 
 

waiguoren wrote:
Immigration is a tricky issue to begin with, but in Britain's case how on earth do you expect anyone to feel any sympathy for you guys? Genocide in Tasmania, concentration camps in South Africa, the colonization and what followed in the Indian subcontinent, the Opium Wars, the fire bombing of Dresden, the Irish - never before has 'You reap what you sow' sounded more apt to my ears.



Sounds like sheer spite, vindictiveness - punish the descendants, two wrongs don't make a right.
I believe what is going on here is also happening in other countries, only not so fast. Think about why this would happen, who benefits.
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:41 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:

To reiterate my stance on immigration again, no one can convincingly argue that countries (especially industrialised ones) don't benefit from others labour - I think of how the Irish helped build most of our road systems and housing estates, who's ancestors came over in the eighteenth century to work in the first factories (unfortunately they haven't always been treated well or credited over our history). Our hospitals employ thousands from overseas including India and the Philippines - wouldn't run without them.

But when I see, read, and hear of others equal concerns over the sheer numbers (which is increasing yearly) coming here I believe something very sinister is going on - and slowly in the media it is no longer tolerated that a vocal few (yes a relative few) can end or stiffle debates by insisting people are simply bigots when they speak of how their world is fast changing, and worry what the future consequences will be with so many to feed/house and provide work for (supermarkets some years ago said the population must already be 80 million by what they need to provide on the shelves).




Honestly, if you had just clearly elucidated that point in these last two paragraphs every time you posted an article link instead of just letting it hang there cryptically, you would have much fewer antagonists here. It's pretty much beyond dispute at this point that large-scale immigration in relatively short time periods has a way of breaking down social bonds for reasons that have nothing to do with race (see Irish immigration to the U.S., for example); the social science is pretty clear cut on that. And obviously any rapid demographic or population shift changes the cost of social programs and affects their long-term viability, nobody will argue that. But when you just continually bombard the board with cryptic or nonexistent messages littered with anti-immigration news articles, it just looks like you have a hatred of anyone who looks different from you.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:44 pm 
 

Okay, so what reparations have you (by you I mean Britain) made for Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and all the other African countries that are ruined because of your colonization, oppression of the natives and policies? Done anything recently to make amends for what you guys did in Iran? No? The Germans can do it, why can't you guys? And then you have the nerve to whine about immigration to your country? Give me a break, pal.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:00 pm 
 

waiguoren wrote:
Okay, so what reparations have you (by you I mean Britain) made for Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and all the other African countries that are ruined because of your colonization, oppression of the natives and policies? Done anything recently to make amends for what you guys did in Iran? No? The Germans can do it, why can't you guys? And then you have the nerve to whine about immigration to your country? Give me a break, pal.



I have no idea what reparations have been made, you mention other nations as if they're lily white. How about past atrocities committed by other nations throughout history? This isn't just about a "whine" about what's happening here but Europe as well.
The Falklanders got to vote recently, the Scottish will next year, all I'm asking is that we all get a vote on our future.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pippin_Took
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:50 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
Governments claim to have made mistakes letting millions of people in the country (latest headline news), I and many others know from the hypocrisy between their words and actions that it was no mistake, it's all about taking democracy away from the people and ensuring they will remain in power.

How is democracy being taken away? This is an absurd claim. Everyone has a vote. I don't know what your point is here, unless you're still convinced that Labour only increased immigration to garner more votes? Considering they're not in power right now, that seems wilfully mistaken.

mindshadow wrote:
Some here are trying very hard to ignore logic and reason while insisting that anyone even mentioning immigration can only be a racist.

Again, false and absurd. I don't believe anyone is calling you explicitly a racist. It's perfectly valid to debate immigration: that's why we're all in this thread. But you aren't using logic or reason yourself, you aren't providing sources, you're just getting wound up and shouty

mindshadow wrote:
Do you think it is right that a relatively small country (and this affects mostly England) should have open borders (which we've virtually had for some time)...because I find the attitude that is prevalent amongst some posting here truly incredulous.

Which attitude? Quote people, refute their statements one-by-one. Your conviction is obviously strong, let's see your reasoning. We do not have "virtually open borders".

mindshadow wrote:
But when I see, read, and hear of others equal concerns over the sheer numbers (which is increasing yearly) coming here I believe something very sinister is going on - and slowly in the media it is no longer tolerated that a vocal few (yes a relative few) can end or stiffle debates by insisting people are simply bigots when they speak of how their world is fast changing, and worry what the future consequences will be with so many to feed/house and provide work for

I don't think anyone is stifling debate. This is a topic regularly debated in government, in the media, amongst co-workers and friends, in my experience. The reason people are called bigots is that they often are, or rather they are led towards this state, by a media onslaught against those coming to the UK from overseas. Rather than engage with an increasingly diverse population, people believe that it is immigrants causing their problems, rather than the broader construction of our society (dismantling of welfare state, wage inequality, North-South divide, unfair taxation system, and so on) -- I don't think, from what you've said, that you would disagree with this?

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Napero
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:11 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
Sounds like sheer spite, vindictiveness - punish the descendants, two wrongs don't make a right.

Just like in the case of the African-Americans in the US, it's not about punishing the descendants, it's about giving equal starting positions to different people. If you're black in the USA, you're most probably disadvantaged in the society, thus there are things like affirmative action. No, I do not fully agree with the basic idea, but do you seriously say that you, personally, haven't benefited from the British colonial times? Like, seriously? Without that era, you'd be living on an island version of Albania. Sure, industry was invented there, but everybody has raced past you people a long time ago.

mindshadow wrote:
Firstly realise that these acts were commited by a powerful elite (like now) who were British. I hope people don't blame the British public, like they don't the Americans for some present situations.

Ah, the old "I was only a member of the Nazi party for political reasons" excuse. It was the elite, the rest only followed orders. And nobody but the powerful elite ever gained anything from it, right?

mindshadow wrote:
So from your post you'd be quite happy for this nation to be "dismantled" and socially changed forever? Well people may have something to say about that.

Duh. No nation has the government it desires, but all of them have the government they deserve. The UK has essentially built its fortunes on centuries of oppression in other parts of the world, and there even was that amusing pseudo-study that ended in the conclusion that there are just half a dozen nations that the UK has not waged war on in the past. If the people immigrating there are "dismantling the society", I'd like to learn what the British policies all around the world did back when you were raking in the fortunes that led you to being a nation worth mentioning.

mindshadow wrote:
The Falklanders got to vote recently, the Scottish will next year, all I'm asking is that we all get a vote on our future. The more the general public seem to demand one, the more we're denied (the main parties hint strongly we'll get one after a referendum) which makes me believe we were never meant to have a say.

And what, for the sake of discussion, would you like to vote on, exactly? Being rich or poor? Being independent or annexed by Canada? Everybody getting a million pounds immediately? The state paying the taxes?

You can't compare two areas getting to vote whether or not to stay as a member of a club they originally didn't want to join (well, the Falklands might be a different case, but whatever), and an obscure idea of "voting on our future", unless you specify what you wish to do. This is just bullshit.

I have nothing against the British or the UK, I like the people a lot, and London is a wonderful place. And I also think that if there ever was a person deserving a hotter spot in the Devil's wok than Hitler, it's obviously Leopold II of Belgium, and that whatever funds he got from Congo should be returned with interest, even if that meant handing over the whole Wallonia to some black dude from Kinshasa. But you whining about how unfair it is that people, many of whom are highly skilled professionals your ethnic group no longer produces in significant numbers, immigrate there, you should really think pretty damn hard on the foundations of your wealth. No, it's not about punishing your innocent generation, it's getting an even start, and the UK really cannot afford to whine for, say, a century more.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:16 pm 
 

Pippin_Took wrote:
How is democracy being taken away? This is an absurd claim. Everyone has a vote. I don't know what your point is here, unless you're still convinced that Labour only increased immigration to garner more votes? Considering they're not in power right now, that seems wilfully mistaken.


I've already explained how democracy is being taken away in an earlier post (FFA).


Quote:
you're just getting wound up and shouty


I've been very careful how I respond to posts.

Quote:
We do not have "virtually open borders".


Yes we do, they're a joke. Australia deport people who commit crimes. Someone here was allowed to stay because they owned a cat (I joke not) - one example of our daft nonsensical judicial system.

Quote:
The reason people are called bigots is that they often are, or rather they are led towards this state, by a media onslaught against those coming to the UK from overseas. Rather than engage with an increasingly diverse population, people believe that it is immigrants causing their problems, rather than the broader construction of our society (dismantling of welfare state, wage inequality, North-South divide, unfair taxation system, and so on) -- I don't think, from what you've said, that you would disagree with this?
[/quote]

All this has given people with extreme views a lot of "ammunition", if you don't want people sympathising or listening to those with an ulterior motive/agenda don't deny a large part of society a media voice or belittle them by simply dismissing them as bigots (see the case of Gillian Duffy), which only adds to resentment and feelings of being alienated further.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:48 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
Just like in the case of the African-Americans in the US, it's not about punishing the descendants, it's about giving equal starting positions to different people. If you're black in the USA, you're most probably disadvantaged in the society, thus there are things like affirmative action. No, I do not fully agree with the basic idea, but do you seriously say that you, personally, haven't benefited from the British colonial times? Like, seriously? Without that era, you'd be living on an island version of Albania. Sure, industry was invented there, but everybody has raced past you people a long time ago?


African-Americans ancestors were forced there against their will.


I can't imagine that I haven't benefitted from past colonial times in some way. Unfortunately bad events in the past happened, but I can't understand this attitude of "you've only got what you deserve, and now you must pay", to people born a hundred years or more after the fact.
On the news recently someone was talking to an African who said it was the British fault why his area was impoverished - the interviewer replied; "what even after 100 years?" He was pointing out that widespread corruption hindered development today.


Quote:
I have nothing against the British or the UK, I like the people a lot, and London is a wonderful place. And I also think that if there ever was a person deserving a hotter spot in the Devil's wok than Hitler, it's obviously Leopold II of Belgium, and that whatever funds he got from Congo should be returned with interest, even if that meant handing over the whole Wallonia to some black dude from Kinshasa. But you whining about how unfair it is that people, many of whom are highly skilled professionals your ethnic group no longer produces in significant numbers, immigrate there, you should really think pretty damn hard on the foundations of your wealth. No, it's not about punishing your innocent generation, it's getting an even start, and the UK really cannot afford to whine for, say, a century more
[/quote]

I really would like to believe that first statement. That word again "whine". People are facing ever increasing living costs, fuel bills, food bills etc. A very significant increase in the population adds further problems for working people, which I've outlined. Unfortunately people aren't living together in this utopian dream that many believe is happening. They tend to stay in their own areas, cultural microcosms.
Your main argument seems hinged on our past history here Napero, and you make it clear you have little sympathy for what is now happening.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Pippin_Took
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:19 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
I've already explained how democracy is being taken away in an earlier post (FFA).

The onus is on you here to back up your arguments, not refer me or anyone else to some post you made way back in another thread. At the very least link to it!

mindshadow wrote:
Pippin_Took wrote:
We do not have "virtually open borders".

Yes we do, they're a joke. Australia deport people who commit crimes. Someone here was allowed to stay because they owned a cat (I joke not) - one example of our daft nonsensical judicial system.

This is bollocks mate. You can cherry pick dumb isolated incidents, or quirks of the system all you like but without (a)recognising these are complete strawmen, and (b) not even providing some validation of what sounds like a made-up claim, you really don't advance your case at all.

mindshadow wrote:
On the news recently someone was talking to an African who said it was the British fault why his area was impoverished - the interviewer replied; "what even after 100 years?" He was pointing out that widespread corruption hindered development today.

This is getting increasingly irritating to point out, and maybe it's better to ignore it, but your "supporting evidence" is weak at best, fully absurd at worst. Hearsay. Isolated, unrepresentative, nonsense.

mindshadow wrote:
Napero wrote:
Duh. No nation has the government it desires, but all of them have the government they deserve. The UK has essentially built its fortunes on centuries of oppression in other parts of the world, and there even was that amusing pseudo-study that ended in the conclusion that there are just half a dozen nations that the UK has not waged war on in the past. If the people immigrating there are "dismantling the society", I'd like to learn what the British policies all around the world did back when you were raking in the fortunes that led you to being a nation worth mentioning.

I don't think new comers are responsible for "dismantling" us, it's our "own" people. So any country that we in the past invaded are free to turn up here? Please explain your reasoning to kids leaving school today, and why they face a very hard time and are not being trained or given free further education anymore (Scotland does).

This first sentence is counter to everything you've advanced previously, blaming immigrants (or at least, immigration). The second: that's not at all what he said. Third, the absence of free further education was started by Labour, who encouraged an expansion of the uni system beyond our economy's capacity, I will grant you. But it is being fucked into the ground by our current government, while every week your precious Telegraph and Mail explain how their policies of hiking fees and slashing spending are totally justifiable. The reason people aren't trained is that we're tentatively trying to recover from a crippling financial crisis. It is the same in many places around the world. It is *not* the case that our university places are all going to foreign immigrants (at least for undergraduate coursess - higher degrees is naturally a bit different). Again, I don't understand what you're getting at here. Perhaps pick one argument in sequence and follow it through properly?

mindshadow wrote:
Napero wrote:
And what, for the sake of discussion, would you like to vote on, exactly? Being rich or poor? Being independent or annexed by Canada? Everybody getting a million pounds immediately? The state paying the taxes?

We were never asked if we wanted to be part of a superstate. From what I understand talking to older people everyone was quite happy being in the commonwealth.

Fucksake. The Commonwealth is an unwelcome legacy of our shameful imperial past, however much we paint it as otherwise with the Games and State/Royalty visits and the like. The EU (assuming you're referring to that when you say "superstate" -- what the hell is your problem with actually naming things rather than hinting darkly at them??) is a completely different entity. It may not be perfect, but freedom of migration, upholding of human rights, centralised higher level courts, agreed labour laws and working wages, environmental policy, humanitarian interventions (the list goes on) are all things which I believe it's beneficial for nations to attempt cooperation on. Don't you?

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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:22 pm 
 

Pippin_Took wrote:
human rights


Seems everyone's allowed them, except the English.

Will answer more points later - I'm "running away to bed" now.
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Grave_Wyrm
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:00 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
it just looks like you have a hatred of anyone who looks different from you.

I don't think he's like that, honestly. It looks more to me like he's doing something similar to the "return to classic liberalism" that's going on (mainly online) here in the states. Some enclaves of the counter-cultural have glommed onto this idea of rigid immigration policies in pursuit of some convoluted misunderstanding of "the workings of the elite." They end up coming off as racist because they aren't more careful with their language. Most of them aren't actually racist, they just want the dollar to not collapse entirely, and they believe politicians like Ron Paul that ousting corruption is equally effective as denying immigrant access, blaming the desperate and oppressed scapegoats for the race to the bottom, along with a bunch of other stuff that's part and parcel with what amounts to a classic liberal objective: mercantile power providing political leverage equal to that of the aristocracy. The classic liberals got the working class (then "serfs") on their side with that same rhetoric.

Contemporary adherents to this classic liberalism have, in general, a desire to see humanity thrive, but seem to feel that equality is too messy, and independence means everything will work itself out if they just call no tag backs! Either that or it's some kind of DIY society: open carry, home town elected sheriffs, a million different currencies, political sovereignty, privatization of everything under the sun, etc. are the answers to wash the Invisible Hand: their sacred cow, the Free Market. A faith-based Deus ex Machina if I've ever heard of one.

Mindshadow, talking to old people about being happy in the commonwealth in England doesn't seem much different than old Russians feeling like things were better under Stalin because things might well have been fucked, but there was food. Liberation removed the support system of the state and this depressed country was thrown into the world market with no revenue, and many starved. Preference for the foregoing tyranny is reactionary selective memory. Likewise when it comes to looking at imperial feudalism, there's nothing for you in the past. People generally make the best of a bad situation regardless of their scenario. I wouldn't pine for the Great Depression just because it taught my grandparents frugality and innovative simplicity.


Last edited by Grave_Wyrm on Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Napero
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:02 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
Pippin_Took wrote:
human rights


Seems everyone's allowed them, except the English.

Boo-hoo! The oppressed minority will no doubt rise?

One of the points you're missing entirely is pretty simple: globalization. London and the UK in general are one of the focal points of international money traffic. Having walked through the financial district of London, I can only repeat what is obvious: a significant fraction of the world's money flows through London. And if that is not a pretty damn beneficial remnant of the colonial times, then nothing is. There's no reason in hell why London should have that advantage, except things that happened before WWII. And that, surprise surprise, lures in immigrants. If you wish to close your borders, you're also going to shut down one of your country's main sources of income, which has since WWII been the main fault in any isolationist agendas. You can't cherry-pick, you're either a part of the international economy AND society, or you're not.

Globalization also means that no matter how hard you try to claim it's a British thing, the working class and the basic citizens are being squeezed to tighter bound everywhere. Look at the USA, for example, and read some of the statistics from there, such as the development of the multiplier between an average blue-collar worker's wages and the income of CEOs. It's greed, it's dirty, and it's unfair as hell, but it sure isn't a British phenomenon. Why the hell do you assume the government in the UK is any more greedy than any of the governments in the EU? Have you ever taken a look beyond your borders? Greed is international, and it's leeching on everybody nowadays. The days of companies assuming their societal responsibilities or holding some kind of loyalty to their employees are a past thing.

You say it's because you're not being asked, and you're not allowed to vote on things. Why not start a movement to get a vote on being in the EU, closing the borders, stopping the trade with foreign entities, and whatever it is you're wishing for? Could it be that the ideas are not that popular, because popular ideas tend to be used by parties wishing to get votes? Is it possible that the people are actually content in their simple lives?

For the record, despite the fact that Finland is one of the net payers of the whole EU charade, I'm more than happy that we are a part of the EU. There are arguments against it, but most of them are essentially bullshit, petty, and simply try to avoid admitting that the world does not end at the borders of our country. Trying to argue otherwise is usually a sign of timidly wanting to avoid the competition in the international markets and wishing for days that ended in the 1950's. Those days are over, and no matter how much you wish for it, they will not return.
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ClaymanOnFire
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:38 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
On the news recently someone was talking to an African who said it was the British fault why his area was impoverished - the interviewer replied; "what even after 100 years?" He was pointing out that widespread corruption hindered development today.

Might want to do a bit of research into the topic. Africa is a very complex problem that dates back to the artificial borders imposed by colonizers. They broke apart tribal lands and put enemies in the same country. When a superpower comes barging in, steals a bunch of resources and throws feuding tribes together yeah, it's going to have some pretty long-lasting repercussions.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:43 am 
 

After 100 years of what?

The formal end of colonialism was a transition to coercive and economic colonialism. The Bretton Woods system heavily utilized the IMF and WB to dictate terms and conditions of structural adjustment plans to exercise whatever economic influence they need, perpetuating indentured relations with former colonies. The cold war was fought using former colonies as proxies. Former colonies weren't just given a blank slate to start anew, they have been kept on a number of leashes at our diplomatic and economic tables, figuratively. The first world, especially the British via banking conglomerates, have had an undeniably large role in African development and economics since 1945. Looking past that and suggesting that the only factor is that they are no longer colonies is incredibly ignorant.

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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:56 am 
 

Every other country I can think of has strict rules on immigration. US and Australia have very tight controls - why not us here?

I would say it's obvious the plight of the blue collar workers has been totally ignored. They're expected to just put up with ever increasing hardships and squeezed at every turn as you put it. These are the people who need protection most from a government and who often have more stronger feelings of patriotism and attachment than the wealthy - then when they (we) speak out we're demonised as bigots by people who are taking away our hard fought for gains, all for profit. Rather than move factories abroad where wages are cheaper, why not bring people over to the factories already here? Simple solution if your a business man.

Quote:
You say it's because you're not being asked, and you're not allowed to vote on things. Why not start a movement to get a vote on being in the EU, closing the borders, stopping the trade with foreign entities, and whatever it is you're wishing for? Could it be that the ideas are not that popular, because popular ideas tend to be used by parties wishing to get votes? Is it possible that the people are actually content in their simple lives?


It's probably already too late. The fact I can speak openly now about my concerns, and feel confident, is because there are now many news articles spelling out the state of affairs here, which give huge insight into the people who have perpetrated these acts (see my many links posted over the last 6 months).


Quote:
For the record, despite the fact that Finland is one of the net payers of the whole EU charade, I'm more than happy that we are a part of the EU. There are arguments against it, but most of them are essentially bullshit, petty, and simply try to avoid admitting that the world does not end at the borders of our country. Trying to argue otherwise is usually a sign of timidly wanting to avoid the competition in the international markets and wishing for days that ended in the 1950's. Those days are over, and no matter how much you wish for it, they will not return
.[/quote]


You may be happy, but how about the millions who are not?
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Last edited by mindshadow on Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:11 am 
 

ClaymanOnFire wrote:
Might want to do a bit of research into the topic. Africa is a very complex problem that dates back to the artificial borders imposed by colonizers. They broke apart tribal lands and put enemies in the same country. When a superpower comes barging in, steals a bunch of resources and throws feuding tribes together yeah, it's going to have some pretty long-lasting repercussions.


Zodijackyl wrote:
After 100 years of what?

The formal end of colonialism was a transition to coercive and economic colonialism. The Bretton Woods system heavily utilized the IMF and WB to dictate terms and conditions of structural adjustment plans to exercise whatever economic influence they need, perpetuating indentured relations with former colonies. The cold war was fought using former colonies as proxies. Former colonies weren't just given a blank slate to start anew, they have been kept on a number of leashes at our diplomatic and economic tables, figuratively. The first world, especially the British via banking conglomerates, have had an undeniably large role in African development and economics since 1945. Looking past that and suggesting that the only factor is that they are no longer colonies is incredibly ignorant.


I don't know enough to comment, and I made the mistake of using what I heard on a radio program as an example to point out widespread corruption which is endemic in many African countries - see news about foreign aid.
African people suffered greatly under colonial rule, the Haitians are still suffering very much due to the colassal reparations they were forced to make to buy their freedoms. I don't understand why western countries aren't forced to pay all this money back, and for the British also to pay substantial compensation - maybe we have, I don't know.
All peoples should be governed by who they democratically elect, whether African, Tibetan, or English.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:18 am 
 

ClaymanOnFire wrote:
When a superpower comes barging in, steals a bunch of resources and throws feuding tribes together yeah, it's going to have some pretty long-lasting repercussions.


"throws feuding tribes together" I could argue that's whats been orchestrated here.


Spoiler: show
Unlike France and Germany, which did not give migrants from the ten countries which joined the EU in May 2004 full access to their labour market until 2011, the then Labour government did not insist on any transitional controls.



I'm sorry but you can not address past injustices throughout history by inflicting hardship and major upheaval on present day descendants, it smacks of vindictiveness and spite at best (which is the vibe I'm getting from some posts). Luckily the British public, by and large, are a pretty tolerant bunch.


Also I believe people's behaviour has changed dramatically in recent years, and not for the better, re; my thread highlighting patient care and treatment of the elderly.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:18 am 
 

mindshadow wrote:
Australia deport people who commit crimes.


Australia most definitely does not deport citizens for their crimes. Have you got some proof of this that I must have missed?
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Gypaetus
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Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:03 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:02 am 
 

Terri23 wrote:
mindshadow wrote:
Australia deport people who commit crimes.


Australia most definitely does not deport citizens for their crimes. Have you got some proof of this that I must have missed?


Actually, under some circumstances we do deport immigrants who commit crimes: http://outcare.com.au/criminal-record-d ... -migrants/ this has a pretty good summary of it. I'm terrible at speaking legalese but if you're curious just google 'australia deportation laws'.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:09 am 
 

The term I used was citizens, which is something we just don't do. You'll find most countries have deportation laws for residents that are not legally citizens.
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:19 am 
 

Terri23 wrote:
The term I used was citizens, which is something we just don't do. You'll find most countries have deportation laws for residents that are not legally citizens.


I assume Mindshadow was referring to immigrants when he said we deport people, so I assumed you were referring to the same.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:04 am 
 

It's impossible to predict what mindshadow thinks. If he is referring to non-citizen deportation, it's redundant because just about every country has deportation laws. If he's referring to citizen deportation, or forced exile, which to my mind our country doesn't practice, then I look forward to his citations and discussion.
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

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It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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Napero
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:09 am 
 

mindshadow wrote:
I'm sorry but you can not address past injustices throughout history by inflicting hardship and major upheaval on present day descendants, it smacks of vindictiveness and spite at best (which is the vibe I'm getting from some posts).

"Hey, why can't we all just be friends? We are really, really sorry for what our ancestors did to your countries, and apologize for the wars and and oppression and stuff, but we weren't there because we weren't born yet, so let's agree that you stay there and we stay here, and we call it even. We'll keep the stuff, though, as a token payment for the stuff we took care for you for the past four centuries."
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:56 am 
 

In the papers here there are often cases that pop up of British born people who emigrated to Australia, then after many years, as much as 20, they are deported after committing a crime, sometimes not even a major one.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:03 am 
 

mindshadow wrote:
In the papers here there are often cases that pop up of British born people who emigrated to Australia, then after many years, as much as 20, they are deported after committing a crime, sometimes not even a major one.


That's not unique to Australia. You'll find cases of that happening in every fucking country in the world. Like I suspected, your argument is once again redundant.
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American isn't a nationality

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It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:10 am 
 

Once again I reiterate this thread isn't about normal levels of immigration, but about something which was probably planned many years ago, maybe even soon after WWII? and to the people living here now, whatever their recent cultural back ground, is starting to look very sinister. If I am in the minority like you suggest Napero, then we would be given a referendum as our feelings would pose no threat, yet we're constantly denied one, I think that says a lot.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:14 am 
 

Every country it seems except for here Terri23. Please don't resort to swearing, if anyone should be swearing I feel it should be me , and I've managed to keep my cool.
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:16 am 
 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... 6759528497

Ten seconds into a Google search reveals it does happen in the UK. A case from just last week, infact.
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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mindshadow
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:23 am 
 

I said it seems. There are many high profile cases almost weekly where the judgements are just non sensical. Which brings us into our judges.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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