^Saw that yesterday as well. There's some speculation that the man in question is a "yes man" but regardless, he's only saying whats true. It's shocking to hear a trader to be that candid but he's not saying anything that isn't true. The profits some people have made off this recession is mind boggling.

And Apteronotus, I pretty much agree with you. Obama has not only continued many Bush policies but has actually institutionalized some of them. He's not much better, no doubt about it and Clinton wasn't perfect either but It's just very hard for me to recognize the left being anywhere near as responsible for what's happened than the right or the neo-conservative right, if you'd like. You mentioned going back even further than that...and when you do, you have yet more evidence of the right taking steps in the middle east that would eventually come back to bite us in the ass and give us due cause to become further entrenched in the region. I'm not saying all conservatives are bad but I am saying that most of them, especially now, come off as extremely ridiculous and very far right. Obama hasn't made things better, true, but even if he did a better job, Its hard to imagine we would be much better off right now. The mess Bush left was colossal.

.

Ok, I am sorry. If you follow that link though and watch the pepper spray video, it is pretty hilarious. Uppity hippies getting all loud and vocal, shuffling around against the barrier (that one bitch who got it in the face looked grody and like she had not showered in a month) and he runs up and just lights them all up. I consider pepper spray an acceptable tool in keeping larger formations like that from getting unruly. If they were billy clubbing peoples brains out and what not it might warrant some harsh criticism.

Decent article outlying the global frustration with the current state of democracy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44697094/ns ... ork_times/

I disagree. The primary concentration of corruption and problems have been in a handful of large cities (NY, LA, Philly), especially when larger political interests (which can be bought by business interests) get involved. There are also certain issues when police tend to reflect the views of the general population, such as the tendency to be more racist and homophobic in areas where that mirrors the people they serve. Most police are helpful and reasonable, even if their job is a daily grind with an awful rotating schedule.

When larger interests call, that's when large problems arise with police. From huge things like protests in big cities, to when interest groups complain about underage drinking and push for police to raid bars for underage drinking, to ticket quotas where they aren't even legal but exist for funding purposes. I think a lot of the negative actions of police are forced through government (local or state or national), which is a systematic problem due to the disconnect of people's actual beliefs and actions of government, which in turn is the same issue with buying political influence.

The thing is, they weren't unruly and haven't been, to my knowledge, for the length of the protest thus far. Your ignorant remarks don't prop up your bullshit argument either.

Also, these aren't a bunch of people spouting free love and spirituality; its a group of people calling out the government and the financial sector for fucking them over for years and seeking reform.

The issue is, with those personal shot videos it is hard to tell what is going on. We see a bunch of people pushing on the fence and into the cops who are clearly telling them to back up and keep them at bay (yet they still get all up on them). Then something happens in the background that causes them all to gasp and turn their heads. After that the officer in question comes up and pepper sprays the girl with the nasty hair and everyone backs off the fence, problem solved. The lesson of the story, do what the police tell you and don't get all up on the barrier and you wont get maced in the face.

Peaceful and organized protesting is one thing. If you get out in the streets and start acting a fool, carrying on,shouting, and flailing your arms about. It is going to raise tension and cause those in charge to react at little things. Pepper spray from how he utilized it was harmless, he did not hold them down and spray them in the eyes or anything, just spread it out in a cone on those bunching up around the fence. It stung for a bit, a few hours later they were just peachy though I am sure.

If you actually bothered to investigate what happened there rather than mindlessly siding with the authority figures like a good little citizen, you'd know there are multiple videos online and testimonies from people who got hit with mace. Do what the police tell you, even if you see them pushing protesters around, slamming them into the ground, macing people who are clearly NOT being unruly directly in the face, and then leaving rank and file? You are an incredibly naive ignorant twit if you think this blatant assault by the cop is something that the victims should simply walk off or deserved in any way.

So your prescription for protesting is to stand behind artificial barriers created to hem in the protest, remain still, and perfectly quiet? Guess you want them to be completely ineffective, eh? At least they are grody hippies and not real people.

Meh, I admit I am biased. I shadow cops on a monthly basis and currently in the process of getting a job on campus with the student police department. Once I finish my bachelors in Psych, Law Enforcement is the field I plan on entering. If they don't want to get burned, they should not play with fire. All I really have to say about that since we obviously just see things differently.

As far as the protesting, no they don't have to be quiet and keep in line and file. If they do get unruly though they should be prepared to face the consequences. Most of the Officers I shadow for credit have a very hard line approach as to how things like this should be handled, being exposed to that way of thought has just led me to agree with them.

Pretty much exactly how I feel about these protests. I especially like what you had to say in the second paragraph. I am, however, quite intrigued to see where all this will lead.

@T51b

Let's keep in mind that under Giuliani, the definition of "unruliness" for a protest is existing anywhere in the vicinity of that which they are protesting.

Interesting analogy. Once again, it places the onus of responsibility for the brutality of the police response on the protesters for daring or being stupid enough to stick their hands into the proverbial fire. The fire as the symbol of the police is also interesting, as fires are natural phenomenon not bound by human social conventions or commonly agreed upon procedures for conflict resolution. You see the police as a force of nature not to be tamed or effected but allowed to run wild? I guess I can see why you'd want to be one, with that kind of view on the matter. I'd enjoy being an unbound force of nature too.

Also, "things like this"? You feel non-violent protest of extreme injustice warrants violent police crackdown? What has led you to feeling this is in any way an appropriate state of affairs in a nominally democratic society?

Thanks, though I may have been a bit hard on them considering the strong motivation in our society not to be a part of anything like that for practical, survival reasons. That Glenn Greenwald article (which I have now read) sums things up fairly well:



Not to mention the fact that having ANY mark like this on your record can seriously impede your ability to get even a ten dollar an hour or less temp job with the extensive background checks regularly employed these days. Protesting puts your livelihood and future in jeopardy in the land of the free, home of the brave, etc. So additional props for the guys out there just for that. Also mentioned in that article is that the complaints that the protesters message was unclear is a bit silly as everyone knows what they are about: opposition to finance industry takeover of governance, opposition to financial industry theft of finances from the American public, opposition to the financial industry getting away with incredible crimes scott free, etc. As mentioned in this thread, it sounds like the one of the root issues the scorners have with them is the way they are dressed. Classy.

Occupy Together
I don't know how many of you have heard of this yet. Its supposed to be a hub to unify similar "Occupy" protests happening nationwide.

Well, how exactly do you justify this kind of bullshit besides 'seeing things differently'? Aren't you cop types (assuming you plan to become one...) supposed to be interested in things like public service, justice, the rule of law? When certain law enforcement officials act like power-tripping thugs they undermine the moral legitimacy of their whole profession. You of all people should be intensely concerned with this, but instead you openly brag about abdicating your conscience or any kind of faculty of critical thinking. It seems like you are not suited to the responsibility of wearing a badge.

Relevant:

http://www.change.org/petitions/mayor-m ... ny-bologna

Did anyone positively ID that particular officer? A prosecutor would need probable cause before raising charges and the video was kind of blurry for me at least. I think the petition goes overboard by including a call for the police commissioner to resign. The NYPD had, according to wikipedia info, 34,500 officers and another 4,503 auxiliaries and I think with that number of people you are bound to have numerous criminal acts. Maybe the commissioner should resign, but I think that decision should be based on careful inquiry rather than two paragraphs of assertions, so I will not be signing that petition.

I was thinking the same thing earlier today. Sounds like he can't wait to get out there and start jumping on petty excuses to "light people up." Sadist cops are a scourge on society.

For those of you unsure about whats actually happening in the video, check this out. Lawrence kinda gets on my nerves sometimes but he's right on here and he shows the video in slow mo and it looks completely unprovoked. He walks up, sprays, and walks away, seemingly without a word.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgr3DiqW ... ture=share

http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=1931475#p1931475

http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=1933665#p1933665

I think it's pretty clear that he's just a sadistic, bloodthirsty psychopath.

I had seen a different slow motion video of the same footage and was still unsure how anyone know what officer did it. You would think with nearly everyone there taking video on there phone there would be a less occluded angle. It appears to me that the officer used a wide enough sweep to get the other officer in the hat a little bit, but again its hard to tell.

Apternotus, http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-201118 ... spray-cop/

Thanks dude, that sounds pretty slam dunk. It would be a supremely prudent as a PR move to immediately put the guy on suspension pending an investigation.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/09/29/occ ... wing-down/

Another article on the general state of the protests. As its portrayed here, and obviously from its title, the protests aren't slowing down and again, it lacks an overall message or leader. The protest in my own town started today and an article said there was maybe a dozen people out in front of a Chase bank but someone who commented said he counted 35 people around 1 pm today and the facebook event has over 200 people claiming they are attending. I assume, much like the wall st protests, only a small portion of people can actually afford or are willing to camp out, while a much larger number will come and go. I'm giving it some real thought to coming out but for various reasons I'm sure you all can relate to, I'm hesitant.

Pilot's and other unions join protesters! Neato!

Interesting. I read an article a day or two ago mentioning the pilots but saying that technically their protests were unrelated, that they had been planned long in advance but I guess they've voiced some solidarity with the movement. Very cool development indeed.

EDIT: Had to add this, just stumbled on it. Apparently either the banks don't care or are playing chicken or both. How is this real? ATM fees aren't enough?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/busin ... d-fee.html

"The round of new charges stems from a rule, which takes effect on Saturday, that limits the fees that banks can levy on merchants every time a consumer uses a debit card to make a purchase."

...sooo, lets just make it up by charging the consumer! Goddamnit.

Strong possibility that I'll be attending the General Assembly in Cleveland on Saturday. Will let you guys know how it goes if you're interested.

Heavy Metal in Baghdad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCZLhEOJ8XA

Somebody in the mainstream media airs out the pigs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgr3DiqWYCI

I live on the opposite coast, so there's almost no chance of me attending, but if I were in the area I'd show up in a Rothbard shirt and take part in the ruckus.

The pilots aren't joining, they had an unrelated protest scheduled for the same day. Some merger between airlines or something.

Barry, there are protests being organized all around the US. You need only check OccupyTogether to find the closest one to you.

Obviously

Oh well. Good for them, anyway.

What are these protests accomplishing? I don't think we can get very far with non violent protests.

Right now, they're just proving that police routinely mistreat protesters and that protests aren't really effective at doing anything other than spreading a message, which will be filtered out through information mediators (media).

Every journey begins with a single step, and etc. We won't ever see the world revolution if the very first little shindig is a non-starter.

Shit's getting intense. This could potentially reach a whole other level of huge. It's also interesting how all of this is happening at once: The stock market's dropping rapidly, every day, then, hoax or not, the interview with Alessio Rastani comes out (whom I believe is spot on, no matter his background), and now the protests. Should be interesting.

That's what I was just saying but the link John posted seems to suggest that at the very least, they're voicing their support for the wall street protests, regardless of whether their own protest was planned previously and it also suggests that they've been fucked by wall street too so while they're protesting the merger, they relate to the wall st protests going on. Either way it's all good but that was my interpretation of it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/ ... BL20111002

Around 400 arrested at the Brooklyn bridge. I really hope this shit becomes massive in not just NY, but several cities. But I do think they need to get a concise message at some point, if and when they do become larger. Its ok the message isn't singular at this point because it's still relatively small but if real change is going to happen and there ever comes a time of negotiation they're gonna have to come up with some legitimate, central demands.

As a matter for fact, perhaps those of us here who have support for these protests should voice what they'd like to see change specifically. For me, there could be a laundry list, but it would center around more regulation on wall street and taking steps, making laws toward getting money out of politics or at the least do something to drastically limit how much outside influence is allowed. I feel like these two things would have the kind of weight that would affect this country in several positive ways. This isn't about right or left (although I do believe the right is infinitely more loyal to wall st than the left) politics for me, it's just about common goddamn sense. You can make the regulation hurting business all you want but if the deregulated wall st sends our country down the train, it doesn't become much of a hard choice. Regulate. And do it efficiently. There's such thing as good regulation and bad regulation and if the government gets behind something in the right kind of focused way, I don't see why they can't achieve something positive.

Also, another position that lies outside the realm of right or left and has been talked about, proposed, and cast to the side because the right at this point and time basically believes any government spending is bad spending but I really want to see this country rebuilt. It's absolutely absurd that 25 million people are unemployed, many perpetually, and we're just standing on millions of dollars. Our infrastructure is crumbling. Part of what grew this country so fast was that we built shit and the government has the ability to invest in these projects that are beneficial for everyone and absolutely necessary. You can't just literally let your country fall apart so it's a no brainer. I'd also like to see a lot more investment in clean technologies but I know that's probably still awhile away. But there needs to be a massive project underway, like, right fucking now to rebuilding this country. It would be one thing if fixing the country(literally and economically) was something nebulous and hard to figure out but its really not.

We actually all ready had a massive overhaul of Wall Street regulation with the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, which Obama passed in 2010. Unfortunately, it will still be some time before we can see the full consequences of this sweeping regulation, with certain provisions not taking effect until December 2012. I keep intending to give it a read over, but haven't had the time to go through 800+ pages of financial regulations. I can say that it covers a whole lot and is a really really big deal.

As far as laws toward getting money out of politics, there is a huge Constitutional problem of free speech whenever you try to reform campaign financing. If I am remembering correctly, the last major Congressional effort on this was the McCain-Feingold Act, which the US Supreme Court partially struck down in their controversial 2010 Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission decision, another big issue.

I said this earlier, but I think tax reform is the next step. Corporations can avoid taxes, like I mentioned with Microsoft's tax shelter, people may also remember the case of General Electric paying 0$ in Federal income tax! The current tax structure also allows wealthy individuals to avoid paying taxes on much of their wealth because capital gains are not taxed the same as normal income and I think something about that needs to change. There are countless minor problems like this in our tax code that distort the economy.

However, I feel the impetus for these protests is mostly discontent with the recession and it is not clear that reforms of any kind can fix it. That is kind of the nature of how a housing bubble works, a bunch of dishonest people basically created the impression that there was much more wealth (less risk) in the real-estate market than there really was.

Yeah, I'm aware of the wall street reform but like you, I don't know the exact details. But I get the general feeling that Obama didn't go far enough and that actually implementing it might still be tough in some way. But at the very least, if the reforms are more than that then the media and president himself is doing a very poor job of promoting it because it seems like its never a topic of conversation, like it happened and everyone basically said yeah, whatever. Obama, perhaps because of outside influence, seems to defeat himself in his candidacy for a second term by not taking up issues that are very popular amongst the public and for all I know, the wall street reform act is one of those things. An article I read recently claimed that wall st isn't very happy with him but that he's taken steps recently to please them, seeing as how wall st funded his campaign to the tune of several million dollars so I think he's tried to strike some balance between what the public wants and what wall st wants. Either way, I know he's not cracking down on them the way he should.