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Forbinator
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:20 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:04 am 
 

It would seem to me that as metal listeners, we have learned to reject mainstream propaganda and brainwashing techniques such as those used by pop music labels. It is only natural that we would also reject the lies of the meat, dairy and egg industries. So, have any of you also decided to reject and boycott these industries?

Or are you all still believing corporate myths that have no basis in science? For example:

"we evolved to eat meat"
"you need cow milk for strong bones"
"you need to eat meat to get enough protein and iron"
"food animals are not sentient or aware of their pain...and don't plants feel pain?"
"animal slaughter is always done humanely"

I participated in legalised, institutionalised animal abuse until December 2011, when I realised that there was absolutely no justification for it. I think that those of you who continue to consume animal products either haven't been pressed to justify yourselves, or subscribe to unscientific myths such as those above.

EDIT: I have changed the wording of some of the myths above, so it is clearer what I am referring to. I have debunked these myths throughout the thread, so if you still believe in any of them, please continue reading the replies.
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iAm
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Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:18 am
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Location: West of the Duwamish due South of the Sound
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:16 am 
 

I listen to a lot of Crust and what not that talks about this stuff and enjoy a vegan friendly meal once in a while but I don't have the discipline to not enjoy meat.

I totally respect it though :) You should check out a band called Contend.
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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:48 am 
 

no no no no no NO!

Just because the subculture attracts a lot of weirdos doesn't mean that it's exclusively for weirdos. Many, many metal listeners are simply regular joes that listen to metal music. Most don't care about how "institutionalised" we've become in all aspects of our lives, and just because you have some neurotic compulsion to subscribe to this bullshit doesn't mean you should be in here "asking the hard questions" of everyone else.

A while back I considered collecting material for a blog I was going to start called "why I no longer publicly admit to liking heavy metal", and I think this post would fit in there nicely with the pictures of fat guys in Wacken shirts and top hats.

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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
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Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:09 am 
 

I eat meat because I'm an evil sum'bitch who likes the taste of it as well as the concept of baby cows dying to feed me.

But seriously, stop being a douche, it's embarrassing to Australia.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:16 am 
 

I'm a vegetarian because I don't like the thought of animals being industrially killed for my food, but veganism isn't for me. Don't take away my milk products. Fucking love the stuff. I try to buy them organic though, even though I'm not sure if it makes any difference. I don't really believe in changing the world through consumerism.

I don't think there is any moral value in eating habits. If you don't like how animals are treated in our world you need to fight the system that artificially creates the need to treat them like that.
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droneriot
RETIRED

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:20 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
I don't think there is any moral value in eating habits.

"My grandmother told me to never judge a speciess by their eating habits."
-Charles Tucker III, Star Trek: Enterprise

:)
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CrushedRevelation
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:47 am
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:55 am 
 

Forbinator wrote:
I think that those of you who continue to consume animal products either haven't been pressed to justify yourselves, or subscribe to unscientific myths such as those above.


How about fuck off eh?

Bezerko wrote:
I eat meat because I'm an evil sum'bitch who likes the taste of it as well as the concept of baby cows dying to feed me.

But seriously, stop being a douche, it's embarrassing to Australia.


This x2. For both sentences.

But again on a more serious note, I LOVE the taste of beef, veal, lamb etc and I feel no guilt eating, nor will you change that fact. Plus I fish, and only keep what I need/want to eat, releasing everything else. I also enjoy some vegetarian foods, but as iAm has said, don't have the discipline (read: desire) to give up meat altogether - it's too damn good. Couldn't give up milk, eggs or cheese as well, that's just flat out ridiculous. You're preachy attitude about this in your initial post also reeks about as much as a full vat of rancid lamb blood.
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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1112
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:59 am 
 

please tell us more about how your one whole year of alternative lifestyle dabbling is going to make us "justify ourselves".
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Erotetic
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm
Posts: 907
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:03 am 
 

Forbinator wrote:
I think that those of you who continue to consume animal products either haven't been pressed to justify yourselves, or subscribe to unscientific myths such as those above.


and I think you might need to study neuroscience and moral philosophy a little to appreciate how misguided your assumptions are.

vegans, like Christians, however well educated, typically lack precisely that area of expertise most important to dismissing their arrogant beliefs.

I very much doubt you're an exception like Peter Singer.
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oogboog
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Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:09 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:10 am 
 

We had this thread a while back, feel free to look through it.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80753
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Erotetic
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm
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Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:12 am 
 

CrushedRevelation wrote:
Plus I fish, and only keep what I need/want to eat, releasing everything else.

some vegans* would think that's worse, that it would be better to just buy the fish you want, not go and "torture" a whole bunch of unwanted fish for no better reason than your difficulty in catching the kind you'd prefer.

*I've spent more time arguing with various stripes of vegan than this OP has been one of them, lol.

CrushedRevelation wrote:
I...as iAm has said, don't have the discipline (read: desire) to give up meat altogether - it's too damn good. Couldn't give up...


I'm always curious when people say things like that if they're just underselling themselves. if you actually thought it was morally wrong, do you think you'd still be unable to stop? (like, are there rapists and pedophiles who enjoy the behavior but actually think it's wrong (unlike those who think the victims deserve or enjoy it), and for that reason find the will to abstain, or are the only people who don't rape the ones who don't even want to?). Most vegans like the taste of non-vegan foods (look at all their recipes--they're desperate to enjoy the same taste without the same "moral" cost), so I don't know why you'd think you're any different to them.
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Erotetic
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:26 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
inhumanist wrote:
I don't think there is any moral value in eating habits.

"My grandmother told me to never judge a speciess by their eating habits."
-Charles Tucker III, Star Trek: Enterprise

:)


a species, sure, but what about a civilization?

if you think it's wrong to eat a newborn infant because they have some magical right to life, or to eat hamburgers on Friday because an invisible man thousands of years ago said not to, is there not as much room for judgment there as about any other truth-claim within the conceptual moral sphere that you make?
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Forbinator
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:20 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:38 am 
 

Turner wrote:
Just because the subculture attracts a lot of weirdos doesn't mean that it's exclusively for weirdos. Many, many metal listeners are simply regular joes that listen to metal music. Most don't care about how "institutionalised" we've become in all aspects of our lives, and just because you have some neurotic compulsion to subscribe to this bullshit doesn't mean you should be in here "asking the hard questions" of everyone else.

A while back I considered collecting material for a blog I was going to start called "why I no longer publicly admit to liking heavy metal", and I think this post would fit in there nicely with the pictures of fat guys in Wacken shirts and top hats.


Interesting, I don't think I said anything about weirdos. All I was referring to was the ability to think for ourselves, rather than follow the brainwashed masses. Also, you've referred to veganism as bullshit, but have provided no reasons for it. Simply saying something doesn't make it so.

Berzerko wrote:
But seriously, stop being a douche, it's embarrassing to Australia.

How is living a non-violent lifestyle being a douche? Interesting that you'd choose Australia as the entity that would be embarrassed by me. It would make just as much sense to say that I'm embarrassing to 30-year-old Hyundai drivers in the weight range of 75-85 kgs, but that would just be silly wouldn't it...

inhumanist wrote:
I'm a vegetarian because I don't like the thought of animals being industrially killed for my food, but veganism isn't for me. Don't take away my milk products. Fucking love the stuff. I try to buy them organic though, even though I'm not sure if it makes any difference. I don't really believe in changing the world through consumerism.

I don't think there is any moral value in eating habits. If you don't like how animals are treated in our world you need to fight the system that artificially creates the need to treat them like that.

Well done for giving up meat, but you do realise that animals are killed for dairy and eggs right? Young males especially are superfluous to the industries and are discarded, generally via inhumane conditions and treatment. If I went into a hospital and stole a bunch of babies, I expect that I would end up in prison and the victims would be highly traumatised. This same practice is routine on dairy farms though. Many vegans found it difficult to give up dairy, because of the addictive casomorphins within the milk, but after 3 weeks dairy-free the addiction is generally broken. There are so many milks: soy milk, hazlenut milk, almond milk, cashew milk, rice milk, coconut milk, hemp milk. I've found that avocado has removed any "need" to consume cheese.

The system that you refer to fighting, is actually determined by consumers, as they are the ones who create the demand.

Erotetic, you made some great arguments against CrushedRevelation, so I don't need to address his "arguments". I don't know what you're alluding to when you talk about neuroscience though. Are you trying to suggest that animals don't feel pain and suffering? Because there is plenty of literature that I could link to that refutes that claim. Your comparison to Christianity is the exact opposite of the truth as well. Omnivores only eat animal products because of childhood indoctrination (much like religion), and have the production process hidden from them. If you put a 2-year-old in a room with a live bunny and an apple, I highly doubt he/she would eat the bunny and play with the apple. The analogy that best fits veganism is ex-Christians who have abandoned their faith and overcome brainwash after being presented with the facts and interpreting them logically. Referring to me as arrogant necessarily implies that I'm wrong (as it's impossible to be correct and arrogant), so I think you really need to explain where I am wrong.

Also, someone mentioned preaching, which I would define as saying "you should [insert action]". Stating facts, followed by logical inferences based on those facts, is not preaching. By complaining about preaching, rather than addressing the actual argument, you effectively "shoot the messenger".
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CrushedRevelation
Devil's right hand

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:47 am
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:45 am 
 

Erotetic wrote:
CrushedRevelation wrote:
Plus I fish, and only keep what I need/want to eat, releasing everything else.

some vegans* would think that's worse, that it would be better to just buy the fish you want, not go and "torture" a whole bunch of unwanted fish for no better reason than your difficulty in catching the kind you'd prefer.

*I've spent more time arguing with various stripes of vegan than this OP has been one of them, lol.


I can see your point, but then that would defeat the purpose of the act, or sport of fishing. It is sort of like hunting, so I can see how some would see it as reprehensible, but I'm not one to lose sleep over this way of thinking. I always try to be as humane as possible to minimise harm to the animal, but being labelled a torturer is something I will have to live with I guess...

Erotetic wrote:
CrushedRevelation wrote:
I...as iAm has said, don't have the discipline (read: desire) to give up meat altogether - it's too damn good. Couldn't give up...


I'm always curious when people say things like that if they're just underselling themselves. if you actually thought it was morally wrong, do you think you'd still be unable to stop? (like, are there rapists and pedophiles who enjoy the behavior but actually think it's wrong (unlike those who think the victims deserve or enjoy it), and for that reason find the will to abstain, or are the only people who don't rape the ones who don't even want to?). Most vegans like the taste of non-vegan foods (look at all their recipes--they're desperate to enjoy the same taste without the same "moral" cost), so I don't know why you'd think you're any different to them.


Interesting point. If I personally believed it to be morally wrong, then yes, I could give it away (as I have will power) and seek abstinence, but as I have no moral problem with it, life and death continues. I can live with the so called moral "cost" as you have put it. I would wager that quite a few vegans/vegetarians like the OP do indeed look down their noses at those of us who enjoy meat, as if we are lower forms of being for this. We meat eaters are in the same category as rapists and pedophiles now (horribly harsh analogy)? :lol:

Forbinator wrote:
Erotetic, you made some great arguments against CrushedRevelation, so I don't need to address his "arguments".


I'm glad you parenthesised "arguments". I was not arguing.
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Numerator_41
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:06 am
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:51 am 
 

I like to drink milk and eat steak while listening to Earth Crisis and Arkangel, but that's about it.
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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
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Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:03 am 
 

Forbinator wrote:
I participated in legalised, institutionalised animal abuse until December 2011, when I realised that there was absolutely no justification for it. I think that those of you who continue to consume animal products either haven't been pressed to justify yourselves, or subscribe to unscientific myths such as those above.


I listened to legalised, so-called "artistic" satanic black metal until December 2011 when I realised there was absolutely no justification for it. I think that those of you who continue to listen to Satanic, immoral music either haven't considered embracing the love of Christ, or subscribe to unscientific myths such as evolution.

See what I did there. Preaching, yo.

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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 1244
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:04 am 
 

Forbinator wrote:
Interesting, I don't think I said anything about weirdos. All I was referring to was the ability to think for ourselves, rather than follow the brainwashed masses. Also, you've referred to veganism as bullshit, but have provided no reasons for it. Simply saying something doesn't make it so.


I wasn't referring to veganism in particular as bullshit, but the angle you're coming from - the "brainwashed masses" sentiment. The act of not eating meat/dairy/eggs in itself is completely harmless, and I have nothing against it. What's annoying is your militant "what are YOU doing about this problem?" attitude, and your presumption that we all agree on the masses being brainwashed to start with. As if to be a heavy metal fan is to also automatically subscribe to this basic tenet of your own tiny worldview.

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Forbinator
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:20 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:13 am 
 

CrushedRevelation wrote:
I can see your point, but then that would defeat the purpose of the act, or sport of fishing. It is sort of like hunting, so I can see how some would see it as reprehensible, but I'm not one to lose sleep over this way of thinking. I always try to be as humane as possible to minimise harm to the animal, but being labelled a torturer is something I will have to live with I guess...

Minimising harm is still harm, and it's a completely unnecessary form of harm. If you don't understand, I suggest impaling your face with a hook and letting us know the result.

CrushedRevelation wrote:
I would wager that quite a few vegans/vegetarians like the OP do indeed look down their noses at those of us who enjoy meat, as if we are lower forms of being for this. We meat eaters are in the same category as rapists and pedophiles now (horribly harsh analogy)? :lol:

It doesn't make sense for vegans to judge others, as we are anything but perfect ourselves. Nearly all vegans used to consume animal products, but learned the facts and eventually confronted them, usually through the actions of others moreso than their own. I was an animal-abuser by proxy for 29 years, so I have no basis for being on a high horse. Rapists and paedophiles inflict a high level of harm for a transient and unnecessary pleasure. Meat eaters also do this, but are probably unaware of it, and can use ignorance or lack of self-examination as an excuse. There's no reason to judge omnivores. All we can do is inform them of how their behaviour harms others. Please see my comment about shooting the messenger.
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Forbinator
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:20 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:20 am 
 

Bezerko wrote:
Forbinator wrote:
I participated in legalised, institutionalised animal abuse until December 2011, when I realised that there was absolutely no justification for it. I think that those of you who continue to consume animal products either haven't been pressed to justify yourselves, or subscribe to unscientific myths such as those above.


I listened to legalised, so-called "artistic" satanic black metal until December 2011 when I realised there was absolutely no justification for it. I think that those of you who continue to listen to Satanic, immoral music either haven't considered embracing the love of Christ, or subscribe to unscientific myths such as evolution.

See what I did there. Preaching, yo.

Haha, the problem with this analogy is you have chosen a victimless crime (listening to music). Aside from that, it is a logical statement, as I'm pretty sure everyone who listens to satanic music either doesn't embrace christ, or believes in evolution!

For your analogy to hold, the myths that I listed at the start of the topic would have to in fact be true (given the parallel with evolution). Which ones are you saying are true, and where is your proof? Which myths do you need me to "debunk"? You still haven't stated where I'm wrong. All you've done is attack the method of information delivery (so called preaching) rather than attacking the argument. This suggests you have no argument.
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Forbinator
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:20 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:34 am 
 

Turner wrote:
Forbinator wrote:
Interesting, I don't think I said anything about weirdos. All I was referring to was the ability to think for ourselves, rather than follow the brainwashed masses. Also, you've referred to veganism as bullshit, but have provided no reasons for it. Simply saying something doesn't make it so.


I wasn't referring to veganism in particular as bullshit, but the angle you're coming from - the "brainwashed masses" sentiment. The act of not eating meat/dairy/eggs in itself is completely harmless, and I have nothing against it. What's annoying is your militant "what are YOU doing about this problem?" attitude, and your presumption that we all agree on the masses being brainwashed to start with. As if to be a heavy metal fan is to also automatically subscribe to this basic tenet of your own tiny worldview.

The alternative to my theory of childhood indoctrination with meat/dairy/egg consumption, is that each child was presented with the facts about where their food came from and how it was produced, and made logical and informed decisions before eating anything. This is not plausible, since parents feed their children before they can even talk. Unless there is a third alternative I have not considered? I'm willing to be proven wrong of course. Again, if it's bullshit, you need to provide the truth, rather than simply say I'm wrong.

I agree that it is a bit short-sighted of me to assume that simply being a metal fan means that you automatically have a particular worldview. I think it is reasonable however, that metal listeners would be (on average) more free-thinking than pop listeners. Of course there are exceptions.

Rather than simply swallow industry propaganda that says cow milk is necessary for strong bones, we can critically evaluate scientific literature like this:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/73/1/118.full
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/143/5/472.short
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/133/3/862S.full
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=MOY ... oc_r&cad=4 (see "Osteoporosis" pg 204)
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Xlxlx
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:39 am 
 

I eat meat because I like the taste of it, and consider anything that used to have a pulse edible to some degree. You want to subsist exclusively on vegetables though? Go ahead then, I won't judge you.

Also; fuck off OP. Take your preachy bullshit somewhere else.
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droneriot
RETIRED

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:46 am 
 

Funny, as soon as I saw the poor quality of the opening post I made a report for it stating that it will most likely descend into mindless shit-flinging from both sides, and it looks like I'm being proven right. To give credit to the pro-meat faction, at least they seem to have achieved the necessary level of self-awareness to realize they are in fact shit-flinging, while the pro-vegan side seems blissfully unaware of how condescending and self-aggrandizing it comes across.
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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:48 am 
 

You say you're not on a high horse and then go and tell us that because we eat meat and drink milk because we're brainwashed fools who have been indoctrinated into some sort of murder=fantastic complex. You're damn right I'm attacking your method of delivery, because you're acting like a fuckhead. I don't eat meat because I've been brainwashed, I eat it because it's tasty, and an excellent source of protein, iron and other minerals. I drink milk because it's tasty and is a convenient source of calcium, which is excellent for strong bones. Stop thinking because you've made a certain lifestyle choice it makes you ethically and morally superior to us murderous, brainwashed and indoctrinated scumfucks.

Oh, and metal listeners are just as big idiots as pop listeners.

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CrushedRevelation
Devil's right hand

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:47 am
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:49 am 
 

Forbinator wrote:
Minimising harm is still harm, and it's a completely unnecessary form of harm. If you don't understand, I suggest impaling your face with a hook and letting us know the result.


It makes me happy that you think I can't comprehend things. Not going to make me give up a sport I enjoy (what a barbarian I am...). See below.

CrushedRevelation wrote:
being labelled a torturer is something I will have to live with I guess...


Forbinator wrote:
CrushedRevelation wrote:
I would wager that quite a few vegans/vegetarians like the OP do indeed look down their noses at those of us who enjoy meat, as if we are lower forms of being for this. We meat eaters are in the same category as rapists and pedophiles now (horribly harsh analogy)? :lol:

It doesn't make sense for vegans to judge others, as we are anything but perfect ourselves. Nearly all vegans used to consume animal products, but learned the facts and eventually confronted them, usually through the actions of others moreso than their own.


A... are you hoping for a conversion here?

Forbinator wrote:
I was an animal-abuser by proxy for 29 years, so I have no basis for being on a high horse. Rapists and paedophiles inflict a high level of harm for a transient and unnecessary pleasure. Meat eaters also do this, but are probably unaware of it, and can use ignorance or lack of self-examination as an excuse. There's no reason to judge omnivores. All we can do is inform them of how their behaviour harms others. Please see my comment about shooting the messenger.


You can't play the "oh I'm just the messenger" card, not with the stance you have taken. I am not ignorant of the meat industry, and do not think the animals are all given a lovely send off, but you are still trying to sell the point that I should shoulder some deep shame or regret for my omnivorous nature (and barbaric fishing practices) and rethink my ways due to the fact that you have "informed" me/us of my/our (apparently) unwitting harm. Which I won't, due to the fact that I am morally okay with the killing of animals for consumption. Simple really. You are still essentially preaching your new doctrine of belief. You could also do this by standing on a street corner with a megaphone to reach a wider audience.
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swayze
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:10 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:00 am 
 

OP: Stop being preachy and sanctimonious. You haven't listed a single source for any of the baseless accusations you're hurling at everyone.* The whole "we didn't evolve to eat meat" molar argument has been debunked, if that's what you're thinking.

I eat meat and dairy exclusively from local farmers. The cows (and deer, elk, bison, etc.) eat nothing but grass in spring, summer and fall, and hay in the winter. The pigs and chickens are allowed to roam freely. Chickens peck away at the ground and eat bugs and worms, and the pigs try to forage for roots and stuff. Happy, healthy animals that get plenty of sun (which ups the Vitamin D). There goes the whole factory farming argument. These farms are operated by families, people who understand and appreciate the cycle of life and death. Most people need meat to be healthy; some don't, and that's good for them. A lot of vegans just load up on tofu and soy milk for protein though, and soy is bad for way more people than meat is.

*EDIT: My bad. Noticed you gave links that show acidic diets can affect the bones of old women, eating low-quality red meat can barely increase the risk of forearm fracture in females, and another study that says that though high-acidic diets are bad, compounds in both meat and veggies tend to lessen the effect. And a picture of The China Study.


Last edited by swayze on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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hey
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:05 am 
 

For obvious reasons, I don't really want to comment on the topic at hand, but I think people would generally take your arguments better if you didn't try to come off as being some sort of enlightened individual above a brainwashed mass.

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:09 am 
 

hey wrote:
For obvious reasons, I don't really want to comment on the topic at hand, but I think people would generally take your arguments better if you didn't try to come off as being some sort of enlightened individual above a brainwashed mass.

Perhaps, but I'm sure that most people don't really give a shit about veganism anyway. I mean, what the hell is wrong with milk and cheese? Yeah, I can see the point even for eggs, but those two things? Seriously?
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Turner
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:10 am 
 

Forbinator wrote:
Again, if it's bullshit, you need to provide the truth, rather than simply say I'm wrong.


I never said you're wrong, I said you're acting like a prick. You could be right for all I know; I don't care. As I said, the "bullshit" tag was given to your idea that heavy metal fans are somehow inherently more in-tune with your ideas than the HERD.

Forbinator wrote:
I think it is reasonable however, that metal listeners would be (on average) more free-thinking than pop listeners. Of course there are exceptions.


ahahahahaha, you got a rise out of me here at least m8.


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Aszfargoth
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:12 am 
 

Q: How do you recognize a vegan? A: Don't worry, they'll tell you.

That said, while I would have to be considered an omnivore, I rely mostly on a vegetarian diet, mostly due to health-related issues. I do enjoy the taste of good meat; but I will seldomly purchase it because of the often horrid conditions of production, and therefore quality, of meat (and other animal products) sold within my affordable price-range. While I have no strict moral concerns over killing animals for food, I am opposed to the exploitations of the food industry. My opinion is that mass-production of animal products comes at a high price for their quality, and even if I didn't suffer from the health-related issues mentioned above, I'd rather eat less and better meat than more and worse meat.

Also, I think it's quite funny how veganism is turned more and more into a self-gratifying life-style by its practitioners. As an ideology, it of course already had all the prerequisites necessary for this development from the beginning, but it's entertaining nonetheless how it increasingly becomes a way of saying "I'm better than you!" (what with vegan organisations citing studies which have allegedly shown that vegans are generally more wealthy and intelligent than consumers of meat and whatnot) Of course, all life-styles are, essentially, ways for an individual to constitute itself as a moral, "good" subject, but veganism is already a full-blown political religion, which is what makes it so attractive for many people.

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CrushedRevelation
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:16 am 
 

Damn good post ^
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:29 am 
 

Aszfargoth wrote:
Q: How do you recognize a vegan?


I'll always recognize one, I've never missed an episode of Star Trek :) :roll:


According to Swedish Scientists we'll all be vegetarians by 2050

http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_a ... tists.html

Hopefully this report is exaggerating the future problem.

Native Americans and Innuits have been dependant on animals for centuries, animals kill other animals to live, so to say we shouldn't eat any meat seems over the top. But animals should always be comfortable (not in battery cages) and dispatched as humanely as possible, not like in the news recently where animals were being abused and played with before being killed. And cosmetic tests on animals should stop . If you want to wear makeup test it on yourself not some poor rabbit that cannot blink because it's eyes are glued open :nono:
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:40 am 
 

We'll all be eating insects before we become vegans, I'm telling you!
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swayze
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:53 am 
 

Aszfargoth wrote:
While I have no strict moral concerns over killing animals for food, I am opposed to the exploitations of the food industry. My opinion is that mass-production of animal products comes at a high price for their quality, and even if I didn't suffer from the health-related issues mentioned above, I'd rather eat less and better meat than more and worse meat.


I can't agree with this more.

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Forbinator
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:00 am 
 

Wow, lots of shit-slinging here. We could argue back and forth about whether I'm a fuckhead or not, but really it doesn't matter as long as I'm right, and noone has proven me wrong. What I will say though is there's a difference between judging people, and judging their actions only.

Maybe I need to be more clear about why I think I'm right, and exactly what I think I'm right about:

1. Farmed animals are equal to humans in their abilities to feel pain and suffering.
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... l.pdf+html
http://www.daff.gov.au/__data/assets/pd ... seksel.pdf

2. All forms of intensive farming, including free range and organic, necessarily inflict pain upon the animals. These procedures, done without anaesthetic, include castration, debeaking, tail-docking, dehorning, removal of surplus teats, teeth-clipping, ear-notching, ear-tagging, crush-tattooing.
http://journalofanimalscience.org/conte ... l.pdf+html
http://www.journalofanimalscience.org/c ... id=8904700
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/di ... id=1624708

3. Laws and codes of practice allow these procedures to be done without anaesthetic, and changes to this would increase the costs to an unacceptable level, making the industries unviable, hence these changes would never be made. Abolition is the only way to avoid these painful procedures.
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/__data/assets ... sion_2.pdf (see pg 18-20)

4. All methods of slaughter, even with the most effective methods of stunning (captive bolt is considered the best), cannot guarantee a humane death. A conservative estimate of the number of ineffective stuns is 4%, which becomes much higher where less reliable methods (electrical stunning) are used. Slaughterhouses are required to kill an animal every 12 seconds, so it is very difficult to ensure a humane end for all of them.
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/45.pdf (see pg 9 in particular, but the whole document is quite good)

5. No animal products are necessary for humans. We have evolved from primates, who are essentially vegan, and there is no evidence of humans evolving physiological traits to allow them to handle animal products better than our evolutionary ancestors did. Meat provides an excellent source of protein and iron, but so do kale, broccoli, silverbeet, chickpeas, lentils etc, but without the cancer, diabetes and atherosclerosis.
http://www.vancouverhumanesociety.bc.ca ... sition.pdf

What we have here is unnecessary suffering. I could say "you shouldn't support it" but that would be preaching and you all have your reasons for supporting certain industries. All I have attempted to do is provide facts, which is a different thing from preaching.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:07 am 
 

We could also just hurl some powder and pills containing all the neccesary nutrients and vitamins into our mouths.... Look, anyone would agree with you that the state in which the food industry is now is far from perfect. But that doesn't mean we should stop eating meat, it means that we should change the industry. You are just walking around the problem here.
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Forbinator
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:12 am 
 

swayze wrote:
I eat meat and dairy exclusively from local farmers. The cows (and deer, elk, bison, etc.) eat nothing but grass in spring, summer and fall, and hay in the winter. The pigs and chickens are allowed to roam freely. Chickens peck away at the ground and eat bugs and worms, and the pigs try to forage for roots and stuff. Happy, healthy animals that get plenty of sun (which ups the Vitamin D). There goes the whole factory farming argument. These farms are operated by families, people who understand and appreciate the cycle of life and death. Most people need meat to be healthy; some don't, and that's good for them. A lot of vegans just load up on tofu and soy milk for protein though, and soy is bad for way more people than meat is.

*EDIT: My bad. Noticed you gave links that show acidic diets can affect the bones of old women, eating low-quality red meat can barely increase the risk of forearm fracture in females, and another study that says that though high-acidic diets are bad, compounds in both meat and veggies tend to lessen the effect. And a picture of The China Study.

Free-range hens raised for eggs had their brothers killed at birth, either by maceration or CO2 suffocation. Free-range hens also have a higher rate of pecking the shit out of each other, so they require painful beak-trimming procedures.

Soy is definitely bad for you if you have too much. Good thing we can get our nutrients from fruit and veg.

The studies that refer to acidic diets are referring to high animal protein diets, as these are metabolised to amino acids, which are at excessive levels in meat/dairy/eggs, and have a higher proportion of the sulphur containing amino acids. If you scroll down the China Study link to the page that I mentioned, it debunks the osteoporosis myth by referring to the biggest epidemiological study ever done on the topic.

droneriot wrote:
Funny, as soon as I saw the poor quality of the opening post I made a report for it stating that it will most likely descend into mindless shit-flinging from both sides, and it looks like I'm being proven right. To give credit to the pro-meat faction, at least they seem to have achieved the necessary level of self-awareness to realize they are in fact shit-flinging, while the pro-vegan side seems blissfully unaware of how condescending and self-aggrandizing it comes across.

It's more that it doesn't matter how it "comes across". Why should I sugar-coat the truth? I've now provided ample evidence to back up the facts.

henkkjelle wrote:
We could also just hurl some powder and pills containing all the neccesary nutrients and vitamins into our mouths.... Look, anyone would agree with you that the state in which the food industry is now is far from perfect. But that doesn't mean we should stop eating meat, it means that we should change the industry. You are just walking around the problem here.

What changes would you propose, and how many more animals have to suffer while these changes are being put in place? Is their suffering worth it?

Xlxlx wrote:
I mean, what the hell is wrong with milk and cheese? Yeah, I can see the point even for eggs, but those two things? Seriously?

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used ... ustry.aspx
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=lXS ... at&f=false (teat removal without anaesthetic)

Azmodes: Please edit your posts instead of making four posts in a row in 15 minutes.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:28 am 
 

Forbinator wrote:
The system that you refer to fighting, is actually determined by consumers, as they are the ones who create the demand.

No, it is determined by the impulse to create surplus value, accumulate capital and preserve the oligarchy. There is no such thing as a reign of the consumer because they is dominated by the market in the first place.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:31 am 
 

If you think you merely "come across" as condescending, self-aggrandizing and may I add delusional, then I have worded my previous post poorly. I apologize.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:32 am 
 

@ Forbinator's response to me

Yes, if it it means that after the changes have been put into place, animals will get treated more humane. It seems like you want to realize some animal utopia in which humans and animals (yes I know, humans are animals to), live happily side by side. Sorry to wake you up, but a animal utopia simply isn't possible. People will continue to eat meat. And you know why? Because it's fucking delicious. So trying to make people stop eating meat simply isn't going to work. You can however change the industry, make it more humane. I don't know much about this subject though, and it seems like you know a lot about it. So why not try to research some other, less radical and impossible options?
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Forbinator
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:32 am 
 

Bezerko wrote:
I don't eat meat because I've been brainwashed, I eat it because it's tasty, and an excellent source of protein, iron and other minerals. I drink milk because it's tasty and is a convenient source of calcium, which is excellent for strong bones.

Please see the links I have posted about dairy and strong bones, as well as other links I have posted. Or remain ignorant; this is your choice of course.

Brainwash refers to a state of believing something, despite scientific evidence to the contrary, because it has been repeated so many times (in this case by major corporations who stand to benefit from you believing it). This applies exactly to the milk = strong bones myth. If the belief that milk = strong bones isn't an example of brainwash, what would you like to call it?

henkkjelle: you certainly make reasonable points. There are ways that the industries could be improved, such as by requiring anaesthesia for castrations. But all of these changes drive up costs, and would be resisted by the industries. In particular, the cost of anaesthetising 10,000 sheep would basically drive a farm out of business, and such legislation would not be tolerated. Welfarism, which is the alternative to veganism that you're suggesting is inherently flawed because animal welfare will always be compromised based on costs and profit. Even something as simple as lowering the stocking rates, which improves animal welfare, would reduce profits. Given that people with financial interests in agriculture are responsible for codes of practice, animal interests will always come second as long as our society is using them for food, clothing and entertainment. I think also you are underestimating the growth in veganism worldwide over the past ten years. The more people who become aware and change their habits, the closer we might get to a vegan utopia. It might take 20 years, or 50. mindshadow posted a link which gave reasons why this could definitely happen. People probably thought slavery of African Americans would never end, but it eventually did. Now that we have fought racism and sexism, we can continue the fight against speciesism.
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