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volutetheswarth
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
Posts: 1373
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:55 am 
 

It's more or less the same, although I would say there are less highlights and a couple of missteps. There's the introduction of a new character named Emma Hollis, who's not necessary but counters Frank's behaviour in some ways. The third season feels closer to The X-Files, with Frank now in the role of the troubled and obsessive Mulder, and the Millenium group serving as the oppressive FBI agents and officials. In summary, the third season is alright and watchable but it's played a bit too safe so there aren't too many surprises.

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MacMoney
Man of the Cloth

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:17 pm
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:13 pm 
 

One thing contributing to the superbly atmospheric feeling of Millenium is Mark Snow's music. Just... awesome.

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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:38 pm 
 

...sometimes. Occasionally his score can get really intrusive and annoying, especially during action sequences. Angelo Badalamenti he is not.

EDIT: Also, Mac, did you get to Kingdom Come yet? Overall, I thought the first season of Millennium was very near a masterpiece, but I thought this individual episode was one of the single worst episodes of television I have ever seen in my life. Having watched most of Sliders, that's no small feat.
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volutetheswarth
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:14 am 
 

Sliders is dreadful. It's like the writers and production set out to make the worst possible sci-fi show imaginable. Only the two part pilot is worth a look and a ponder at what might have been without David Peckinpah at the helm, or at least non-laughable CGI that isn't done by The Langoliers computer wizard.

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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:12 am 
 

Yeah, Sliders awkwardly vacillates between so-bad-it's-good to so-bad-it's-just-boring, oftentimes within the same episode. Unless you're sitting on a gargantuan amount of both time and weed, it's not worth trying to sift through.

But yeah, the pilot was sort of okay-ish, albeit wearing the show's libertarian heart a bit too transparently for my taste.

ALSO: wasn't Peckinpah behind that atrocious primetime soap largely written by George R.R. Martin?
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Nahsil
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:06 pm
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:19 am 
 

What do you guys think about Stargate? Hahah. I'll admit to really enjoying both shows, even though I know they're not amazing TV. I watched Atlantis first but SG-1 is definitely superior overall. I never finished it though, once the big cast changes took place.
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MacMoney
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:17 pm
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:42 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
...sometimes. Occasionally his score can get really intrusive and annoying, especially during action sequences. Angelo Badalamenti he is not.

EDIT: Also, Mac, did you get to Kingdom Come yet? Overall, I thought the first season of Millennium was very near a masterpiece, but I thought this individual episode was one of the single worst episodes of television I have ever seen in my life. Having watched most of Sliders, that's no small feat.


Well, I can't really remember how Badalamenti did action, but Snow isn't as good as that, but you know, 'tis a rare person who is (a common and popular choice, I know).

Just watched Kingdom Come and while it isn't as good as the preceding episodes, it wasn't terribly bad. It wasn't terribly biased towards religious being better than non-religious and the faith they talk about in the end - while probably meant to mean faith as in religious faith in God - I felt was easily applied to mean faith in humanity and the goodness of man's nature rather than actual religious belief. It was a bit clear cut, sure, but so were the couple before it - The numerical title for kaboom and the one with the judge.

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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 2:14 am 
 

Nahsil wrote:
What do you guys think about Stargate? Hahah. I'll admit to really enjoying both shows, even though I know they're not amazing TV. I watched Atlantis first but SG-1 is definitely superior overall. I never finished it though, once the big cast changes took place.

SG-1 superior? I haven't seen terribly much of either show but what little I've seen of Atlantis (the first one-and-half seasons) was infinitely better than what I've seen of SG-1 (most of the first four seasons and a smattering of later episodes). The biggest edge Atlantis has over SG-1 is the acting; Richard Dean Anderson may actually one of the worst actors to ever grace television, and the dude filling in for James Spader, who looks like an Abercrombie model hiding behind nerd glasses, and that blonde skinny chick with the overbite were pretty awful as well. OH and that bald commander dude... omg... so, so bad. Atlantis pretty much just felt like a budget Voyager, only replacing Neelix with the even more insipid (!!) David Hewlett, whose scene-chewery knew no bounds. At least there was no Naomi Wildman...

Actually, I've been meaning to watch both shows in their entirety soon. Speaking of which, has anyone here tried watching Stargate Universe; I've heard it's astronomically (haha! Tuvok-level pun) awful.
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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 2:43 am 
 

I've seen a few episodes of Stargate SG-1 and I liked them quite a bit. I should really give it a chance, it's just a big commitment with 10 seasons.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 2:50 am 
 

MacMoney wrote:
Just watched Kingdom Come and while it isn't as good as the preceding episodes, it wasn't terribly bad. It wasn't terribly biased towards religious being better than non-religious and the faith they talk about in the end - while probably meant to mean faith as in religious faith in God - I felt was easily applied to mean faith in humanity and the goodness of man's nature rather than actual religious belief. It was a bit clear cut, sure, but so were the couple before it - The numerical title for kaboom and the one with the judge

Yeah, like the other episodes you mentioned, the whole plot was pretty much telegraphed out in the first five minutes. That's not why I found it so dreadful, though. What I found so astonishingly, egregiously reprehensibly awful about it is that the entire episode rested solely on a plot point that made literally less than no sense: a man who has supposedly 'lost' his religion is wandering around murdering priests in a religious fashion. This is moronic because why would a man who claims (and, indeed, shows all signs) that he's 'lost his faith' bother meticulously observing 16th century Catholic heretical execution methods? Surely he, while tying one of the many, many priests to his respective stake, thought to himself, "Gee, aren't I, by carefully observing religious heresy treatments of the church from centuries ago showing myself there is, in fact, a higher power I'm making these men answer to?" Of course not! Because that's Frank's job (during one of those "bomb strapped to my chest in a crowd" sequences stolen from dozens of crappy late night TV hostage negotiation movies) to exposit the ridiculously obvious motivating factor that perhaps the man "hasn't truly lost his 'faith' after all!," at which point the man breaks down in tears, Frank lets out a sigh of relief and I run to the nearest toilet.

Worst. Episode. Ever.
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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 4:35 am 
 

SG-1 established characterization, emotional impact, and a mixture of drama and comic relief better than Atlantis, although I do enjoy Atlantis a lot on its own terms.

I wanted to like SG:U, because I enjoy the SG universe and I liked the premise of a darker, more realistic SG, but it didn't do it well. It's a BSG wannabe.
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Erosion of Humanity
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:03 am 
 

I've never really checked this thread out before but are there any other How I Met Your Mother fanboys out there? And if so did you guys watch the new episode tonight? It was freakin great.

Spoiler alert (seriously don't click the tag if you're a fan and haven't watched it yet.

Spoiler: show
They Showed Ted's wife
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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:51 am 
 

Yeah I saw it tonight. The ending was awesome, but the episode overall was frustrating for me. I was hoping to see Barney and Robin's wedding at least, as I'm still half suspecting that something will go wrong with it last minute. The whole "Ted's in love with Robin" thing is getting old as well - after 8 seasons it's gotten a bit tiresome to say the least.
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Erosion of Humanity
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:16 am 
 

Yeah I totally agree they have beaten that horse beyond death, I think that the wedding will be next week though, or at least the first part of it. I'm pretty sure that the wedding "episode" will be two or three weeks long but who knows.
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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:18 pm 
 

That's what I'd have thought, but apparently that was the season finale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_I_Met_ ... eason_8%29
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:35 pm 
 

The first footage from the new Whose Line has been released.



It looks like Whose Line, it sounds like Whose Line, it's edited like Whose Line, and, most importantly, it feels like Whose Line.

Yeah, I'm watching. All the reservations are gone, this will be an awesome revival.
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Erosion of Humanity
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:05 pm 
 

Gypaetus wrote:
That's what I'd have thought, but apparently that was the season finale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_I_Met_ ... eason_8%29


Well shit. That really blows, I totally didn't realize this was the season finale, I bumed out now.
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shouvince
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:11 am
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:34 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
It looks like Whose Line, it sounds like Whose Line, it's edited like Whose Line, and, most importantly, it feels like Whose Line.


Ayesha Tyler seems out of place on the show and it will definitely take some time for me to get used to her hosting the show. And did she bellow out a loud fake laugh in one of the scenes? Anyway, previewing this much awaited show with a 90210 theme left me with a 'meh' feeling but it doesn't deter my interest too much. I'm still looking forward to July 15th.

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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:36 am 
 

Watched every episode of Sherlock. They're all as long as a movie and they're all quite good. Cumberbatch is an awesome Sherlock and Freeman a balanced Watson. I like the shows takes on Lestrade and Irene Adler too. Some stuff is really over the top like some of Sherlocks confrontations with Moriarty (and and a pretty stupid moment in the last episode of season two that goes against the character). But all the mysteries are compelling.
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shouvince
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:04 am 
 

Yeah, the Sherlock series is good. I love the fact that every episode stretches well beyond the 1 hour mark. Each of the characters are interesting and intriguing. And the scripts have that depth and attention to detail which makes the show more engaging. Season 3 resumes this September.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:15 am 
 

Sherlock's plots are convoluted and ridiculous and stretch the suspension of disbelief to a rather thin line... but I like the series because it's damn entertaining and well done, and Cumberbatch is really an awesome Sherlock. His chemistry with Watson is nice, too.
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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:23 am 
 

I think that "convoluted and ridiculous" probably isn't too far off from the original character as well :P

Yeah, it's a very fun adaptation. Looking forward to the next season.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:27 am 
 

Nahsil wrote:
I think that "convoluted and ridiculous" probably isn't too far off from the original character as well :P

Oh, I agree. Sherlock Holmes is the king of jumping to ridiculous conclusions based on flimsy and tenuous evidence. :P
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:15 am 
 

I dislike Stephen Moffat, but love Cumberbatch.

Still, I'm on team Brett when it comes to Holmes allegiance.
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MacMoney
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:13 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Still, I'm on team Brett when it comes to Holmes allegiance.


Definitely the definitive Holmes just as David Suchet is the definitive Poirot.

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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:18 am 
 

Subrick wrote:
The first footage from the new Whose Line has been released.



It looks like Whose Line, it sounds like Whose Line, it's edited like Whose Line, and, most importantly, it feels like Whose Line.

Yeah, I'm watching. All the reservations are gone, this will be an awesome revival.


Whose Line is my favorite gameshow of all time. It's not the same without Drew :( I don't know if it is a matter of getting used to, since the chemistry between the performers and host were inferior even in the many seasons of the UK incarnation.

Also, I've recently started watching Star Trek (TOS). I'm loving it and intend to get through all the shows. Stoked on becoming a full blown Trekkie.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:25 pm 
 

I've tried and tried to get into TOS but the incredibly glacial pacing (probably due to budget constraints), and transparent storytelling are real turnoffs. I'm sure I'll finish it at one point, though.

Anyway, on to the rest of Trek: I've found that season 3 through season 6 of TNG still holds up very well today and season 4 through season 7 of Voyager pretty much represents the pinnacle of light, episodic sci-fi TV. DS9 probably houses the best stand-alones in the history of Trek, but the overarching war storyline (which comes to a head in season 4 and runs throughout the remainder of the show) is really drab and needlessly drawn out, the on-and-off romances are straight out of a primetime soap (think: Dallas), and the religious element is at best boring, at worst embarrassingly bad. Enterprise is rather dry, especially at first, but it's still a cut above most sci-fi shows; I recall the third season being similarly as drawn-out as Deep Space 9, but just like Deep Space 9, it had some truly knockout episodes scattered throughout.

Good luck! I envy your Trek-virginity!
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:58 pm 
 

I have no issues with the pacing, I absolutely love it so far (through most of Season 1 so far). Ive never encountered a series before that leaves me unable to decide which of the three leads I like most. The relationship and interaction between them is pretty much what makes the show for me. Some of the stories feel samey or silly but there's lots of clever moments that make up for it.

As for the rest, I can't wait to get through TOS so I can start TNG. I intend to watch everything except Enterprise in chronological order so as to get really immersed in the universe and timeline. Based on what I know from watching reruns on German tv as a kid, 7 of 9 is a hot ex-Borg and Picard is a Shakespeare enthusiast (like me!).

Thanks for the info!
This is all very exciting. Game of Thrones can go suck a big one.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:12 pm 
 

By chronological you mean TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, right? Because technically seasons 6 and 7 of TNG occupied the same time as DS9's 1st and 2nd, and DS9's 3rd through 7th season occupied the same as VOY's 1st through 5th...

Holy shit. I just realized I'm a Trekkie :'(
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:33 pm 
 

No no, I mean according to the timeline. I'll be watching some seasons of TNG, DS9 and Voyager alongside each other. Trekkies like you (:P) have made comprehensive lists of the exact order of episodes. I will still be leaving Enterprise for last though.

http://thestartrekchronologyproject.blogspot.co.uk/

From a newcomer's perspective the post-TNG crew members don't seem anywhere near as interesting with the exception of the Doc and 7 of 9. Since I generally don't enjoy TV series I'm not sure how much I'll enjoy those shows, but I'm pretty sure that by the time I get to them I'll be immersed enough in the universe to continue. Besides, I've heard nothing but good about them (though that can be said for a lot of shows I've never cared for).
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 11:09 pm 
 

That is a lot of Trek, dude. I hope you don't get too discouraged by the early seasons of each of those shows so that you'll miss out on the really, really good later episodes (especially in Voyager's case).

Be sure to keep us (or at least, me) regularly updated on your progress!
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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:58 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
I've tried and tried to get into TOS but the incredibly glacial pacing (probably due to budget constraints), and transparent storytelling are real turnoffs. I'm sure I'll finish it at one point, though.

Anyway, on to the rest of Trek: I've found that season 3 through season 6 of TNG still holds up very well today and season 4 through season 7 of Voyager pretty much represents the pinnacle of light, episodic sci-fi TV. DS9 probably houses the best stand-alones in the history of Trek, but the overarching war storyline (which comes to a head in season 4 and runs throughout the remainder of the show) is really drab and needlessly drawn out, the on-and-off romances are straight out of a primetime soap (think: Dallas), and the religious element is at best boring, at worst embarrassingly bad. Enterprise is rather dry, especially at first, but it's still a cut above most sci-fi shows; I recall the third season being similarly as drawn-out as Deep Space 9, but just like Deep Space 9, it had some truly knockout episodes scattered throughout.

Good luck! I envy your Trek-virginity!


I've tried to get into TOS and have had similar issues. I figure I'll get around it to some day.

TNG after season 3 is definitely still amazing. I don't remember Voyager as well because I haven't rewatched it, but I always thought the characters were pretty weak/forgettable, aside from the Doctor and maybe one or two others. DS9 is awesome overall, but of course it has some truly terrible episodes as well.

Several people told me to start with season 3 of Enterprise so I did. I enjoyed the last two seasons. Never seen the first two, but I'll go back and watch em eventually.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:15 am 
 

Yep, outside of Seven, The Doctor and arguably Neelix, characters showed little growth. And that's why I love it. Character growth in science fiction television is insanely overrated, as is serialized storytelling. Voyager delivered a vast array of self-contained, tightly paced 45 minute vignettes that rarely got dragged under by melodrama or ridiculous ham acting (which constantly plagued DS9, even in the later seasons). The atmosphere remained warm and inviting and absolutely loving, and I've yet to see that feeling replicated on any other series.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:58 am 
 

Honestly I have to disagree pretty strongly here. I found Voyager boring as hell for the most part, and my main problem wasn't so much a lack of character growth as nearly all the characters simply being dull as a rusty butterknife. I watched the entire series back when it was new, and there are many main characters I can barely remember a damn thing about - Chakotay, Harry Kim, and Tuvok had all the personality of cardboard. Many of the others were just rather unlikeable - Kes was written out for a reason. About the only character I can say I genuinely liked on that show was (of course) the Doctor, but most of the time he served as little more than snarky comic relief. Now, you're right that character development isn't necessary in episodic storytelling, but it is essential that the basic mix of main characters includes a lot of inherently conflicting personalities, viewpoints, and philosophies that can be brought out in each episode. This was very apparent in TOS and TNG, but in Voyager it was sorely lacking. Hell, a good chunk of the crew were Maquis for fuck's sake; these are the people whose homes Starfleet callously abandoned to Cardassian tyranny without even asking, who dedicated their lives to fighting a guerrilla war against both Starfleet and the Cardassians, yet after a little hand-waving nearly all of them mesh perfectly with the Starfleet crew, and just go right along with the Prime Directive with hardly a "wait, we don't actually give a fuck about the Prime Directive." Yeah, B'Elanna quips about how annoying Starfleet protocol is once in a while, but real conflict only rarely arises out of it. Keep in mind, these characters are LIGHT YEARS from home and their families, stuck on a ship with NO SHORE LEAVE, and there's a very real possibility none of them will ever see home again. You'd think this would put everyone just a little on edge, but no, everything's just hunk-dory on the Good Ship Lollipop...er, Voyager.

Yeah, I'll take DS9's occasional melodrama and hammy acting (hammy acting in Star Trek? You don't say!) over Voyager's milquetoast mediocrity any day. DS9 had far, far better characters, and its plots and dialog were far tighter. Plus, despite the occasional forays into ham-land, it had some damn good actors in it. Sisko is my favorite captain for a reason, and I'd say Gul Dukat is hands-down the best villain in all of Star Trek.
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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 3:18 am 
 

Gotta completely agree with failsafe here. There is a lack of character development, yes, but there's also a lack of interesting characterization. I barely remember most of the main characters as well, except Neelix (because I found him so annoying), the Doctor, and 7, who was basically the show's Data.

DS9 definitely has WAY more interesting characters, even though it isn't flawless. God dammit, that post^ has me all nostalgic. I watched it once when I was in middle school and then again recently with a girl I dated for several years. We started watching Voyager together and then broke up, didn't get far. I feel like that's a pretty fitting timeline, really. Our best days were TNG, our mixed days (including some very good days) were DS9, and where it all went to shit was Voyager.

(but it was still Trek and I still enjoyed it and would pick it any day over the shitty reboot going on)
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 3:59 am 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Chakotay, Harry Kim, and Tuvok had all the personality of cardboard.

Chakotay was a borderline racist caricature of a Native American (which became most evident during his "personal story" episodes--the 'vision quest' shit was just embarrassing); still, I thought he was a great sounding board for Janeway's Shakespearean soliloquies and a source of differing yet always rational perspectives. And, at the very least, you can't say he wasn't a consistent character, eh? I can't disagree with you about Harry Kim; apparently he was second in line to be axed behind Kes. While I actually disliked Kes even more, I've often wondered if she could've turned out slightly better than Kim by the time the seventh season rolled around. Kes did get quite a great wrap-up show, though. Tuvok was a Vulcan. Vulcans are hard to write for, harder to act and hardest to identify with. I adore everything about the character, and I can't help but think that people who don't just simply don't get Star Trek (then again, I don't get Klingons, so maybe I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.)
failsafeman wrote:
Now, you're right that character development isn't necessary in episodic storytelling, but it is essential that the basic mix of main characters includes a lot of inherently conflicting personalities, viewpoints, and philosophies that can be brought out in each episode. This was very apparent in TOS and TNG, but in Voyager it was sorely lacking. Hell, a good chunk of the crew were Maquis for fuck's sake; these are the people whose homes Starfleet callously abandoned to Cardassian tyranny without even asking, who dedicated their lives to fighting a guerrilla war against both Starfleet and the Cardassians, yet after a little hand-waving nearly all of them mesh perfectly with the Starfleet crew, and just go right along with the Prime Directive with hardly a "wait, we don't actually give a fuck about the Prime Directive." Yeah, B'Elanna quips about how annoying Starfleet protocol is once in a while, but real conflict only rarely arises out of it. Keep in mind, these characters are LIGHT YEARS from home and their families, stuck on a ship with NO SHORE LEAVE, and there's a very real possibility none of them will ever see home again. You'd think this would put everyone just a little on edge, but no, everything's just hunk-dory on the Good Ship Lollipop...er, Voyager.

I've seen these criticisms again and again across Trekdom and I just think that this version of Voyager would've been crushed by the weight of its own pretentiousness as, in my opinion, DS9 was. Voyager was a series that picked up the torch of TNG in style and substance; and yeah, it can occasionally come off as kind of trite and even disposable, but at least it doesn't cram its head so far up its own ass (with endless will-they-won't-they/on-off relationships, superficial takes on Hinduism and lame war stories done thousands of times better elsewhere--see: Space Above and Beyond) that you basically ask yourself "is this even Star Trek." And for the record, there was a huge, multi-episode story arc involving Maquis members (and even occasionally some of the main cast) attempting to take control of the ship. And it was shit, and the show became infinitely better when it turned into Big Happy Family vs. The Monster(s) of the Week.

failsafeman wrote:
Yeah, I'll take DS9's occasional melodrama and hammy acting (hammy acting in Star Trek? You don't say!) over Voyager's milquetoast mediocrity any day. It had far, far better characters, and its plots and writing were far tighter. Plus, despite the occasional forays into ham-land, it had some damn good actors in it. Sisko is my favorite captain for a reason, and I'd say Gul Dukat is hands-down the best villain in all of Star Trek.

As I've said, I think the best of DS9 is probably the best of all of Trek. Episodes like Duet and For The Uniform and pretty much every episode penned by the godly Peter Allen Fields completely and utterly destroyed everything else in the Trekverse. But man, the soap (especially the Kira/Odo relationshit) and the awful, awful religious shit (which turned the spectacularly complex Gul Dukat into a fucking comic book character) just became too oppressive as the show went on. And that finale. What the fuck was that finale, and why was there a fifteen minute scene with a Dean Martin impersonator?

Regardless of our thoughts on each of the Treks, can we all agree at least that anything from Trek is way, way better than anything from Bablyon 5? :P
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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 4:09 am 
 

I hated the Kira/Odo melodrama even when I was in middle school and had no taste whatsoever. Yuck.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 4:11 am 
 

The Leeta/Rom one was almost as bad. But not quite.

But almost.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:11 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Chakotay was a borderline racist caricature of a Native American (which became most evident during his "personal story" episodes--the 'vision quest' shit was just embarrassing); still, I thought he was a great sounding board for Janeway's Shakespearean soliloquies and a source of differing yet always rational perspectives. And, at the very least, you can't say he wasn't a consistent character, eh?

Still though, that Native American stuff was his culture, not his actual character - compare that to Worf, who was a Klingon and took Klingon culture very seriously, yet was much more than just a regular old Klingon.

darkeningday wrote:
Tuvok was a Vulcan. Vulcans are hard to write for, harder to act and hardest to identify with. I adore everything about the character, and I can't help but think that people who don't just simply don't get Star Trek (then again, I don't get Klingons, so maybe I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.)

Sure Tuvok was a Vulcan, but so was Spock. Hell, so was what's-his-name in engineering on Voyager, who wanted to bang B'Elanna really bad in that one episode. That episode was a rare example of a realistic problem that would be unique to Voyager; Vulcans who go into heat in the Alpha Quadrant would presumably just be allowed to go back to Vulcan. Even that guy had a lot more character than Tuvok. The thing about Vulcans and Klingons is, they're essentially meant to represent two opposing sides of humanity; the more advanced, rational, calculating side, and the more primitive (but not necessarily inferior), passionate, feeling side. Both are shown to have their advantages, and both are successful in their own way, yet both have flaws, which over the course of the various series it usually falls to humans to mitigate. Sort of a superego-ego-id kind of thing.

darkeningday wrote:
I've seen these criticisms again and again across Trekdom and I just think that this version of Voyager would've been crushed by the weight of its own pretentiousness as, in my opinion, DS9 was. Voyager was a series that picked up the torch of TNG in style and substance; and yeah, it can occasionally come off as kind of trite and even disposable, but at least it doesn't cram its head so far up its own ass (with endless will-they-won't-they/on-off relationships, superficial takes on Hinduism and lame war stories done thousands of times better elsewhere--see: Space Above and Beyond) that you basically ask yourself "is this even Star Trek."

Look, you keep bringing up the "endless will-they-won't-they/on-off relationships," but having watched the series recently, there are literally maybe 5 episodes max out of nearly 200 that actually deal with relationships. Kira and Odo get together after maybe 2-3 episodes, Rom and Leeta get together after like one. Those are the only two; Sisko and Kasidy get along fine for the most part, Worf and Dax get along fine too. Also I really don't think DS9 was ever crushed under the weight of its own pretentiousness; I really appreciate its willingness to deal with very serious issues, and wipe away a bit of the cheesy Star Trek utopia veneer. For example I recently watched the episode in S7 where Nog deals with PTSD after his leg gets blown off; I don't care how utopic your society is, if there's a war, there's going to be PTSD, and soldiers are going to have to deal with it. It was a very sensitive and thoughtful portrayal of his withdrawal from the world, his friends' frustration and with him and inability to understand why he can't just get better right away, and his eventual return to duty. Of course the process was compressed for the benefit of TV, but still, it was wonderfully done. Also, Hinduism? If anything, Bajorans were space Jews, but even that doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny.

darkeningday wrote:
And for the record, there was a huge, multi-episode story arc involving Maquis members (and even occasionally some of the main cast) attempting to take control of the ship. And it was shit, and the show became infinitely better when it turned into Big Happy Family vs. The Monster(s) of the Week.

That's the thing though, they already DID Big Happy Family vs. The Monster(s) of the Week, and it was called Star Trek: The Next Generation. And that Big Happy Family was way better than Voyager's. What was the point of sending them to the Delta Quadrant at all if they weren't really going to take advantage of that setup? What was the point of repeating TNG if TNG already did it much better? I mean I'd certainly take Voyager over nothing, but it should have tried a lot harder to find its own unique voice.

darkeningday wrote:
the awful, awful religious shit (which turned the spectacularly complex Gul Dukat into a fucking comic book character) just became too oppressive as the show went on.

What? The religious stuff was actually some of the better parts - not the religion itself, but the whole power struggle between Kai Winn and Sisko over religious control was fantastic. Power-hungry Kai Winn (played by Louise Fletcher, who won a fucking Academy Award) was just perfect as a sort-of villain - she and Sisko are always polite to each other, but the mutual dislike is always bubbling just under the surface.

Also Gul Dukat absolutely wasn't turned into a comic book character - the entire character is based around the conflict between his egotism and his guilt at having been a leader in the brutal occupation of Bajor; his egotism won't let him admit that he did wrong so he can seek forgiveness and move on, but his guilt won't leave him alone either, so he continually seeks validation from the Bajorans for his actions, usually through the mouthpiece of Kira. He has this classic paternalistic colonialist view toward the Bajorans, and literally can't understand why they wouldn't want to be occupied by a superior race like the Cardassians, stating multiple times that he viewed them like his children - yet at the same time they rejected him, which in his egotism he just can't stand. He's a classic narcissist who can't stand not being liked. He has tons of rationalizations for his actions during the occupation - he didn't start it and only began administrating it toward the very end, he was only enacting the policy, not creating it, casualties dropped dramatically during his tenure as administrator compared to that of previous administrators, etc. Of course, he never does get that validation from Kira, so over time his resentment of that is transferred to Sisko and, by extension, the Prophets he serves - after all, it's Sisko and the Prophets who fucked up the Dominion invasion of the Alpha Quadrant during what was supposed to be his biggest victory, it's Sisko who led the Bajorans astray, if only Sisko were gone then the Bajorans would come back to him. So, it's very logical that he turns to the Pah Wraiths - his natural ally against Sisko and the Prophets. There's an episode in S7 where he founds a Pah Wraith cult on Empok Nor, which is extremely good. He kidnaps Kira to show her that he's changed, he's not evil anymore; yet he's surrounded himself with grateful Bajoran worshippers who he calls his children, and over whom he has great power, who presumably do the real work of providing food and comfort for the community while he lies around praying and sermonizing and banging the women, almost in miniature of the Occupation. But still he wants that ever-elusive validation from Kira herself. Of course, his own egotism ends up sabotaging the whole thing once again, showing that he really hasn't changed at all - same old guilt, same old egotism, same old Dukat. It's really a great episode.

darkeningday wrote:
Regardless of our thoughts on each of the Treks, can we all agree at least that anything from Trek is way, way better than anything from Bablyon 5? :P

Honestly I can't, but only because I haven't seen Babylon 5 in like 10 years. I remember only the vaguest things about it.


Nahsil wrote:
I hated the Kira/Odo melodrama even when I was in middle school and had no taste whatsoever. Yuck.

darkeningday wrote:
The Leeta/Rom one was almost as bad. But not quite.

But almost.

EWWW RELATIONSHIPS

What are you guys, 12? They seriously weren't that bad, and the other series absolutely had their share of relationshippy episodes too. Next you'll be whining about how those episodes gave you cooties.
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:18 pm 
 

I know I'm a little behind here (story of my life) but I'm really mad that they did away with Janice so early on in TOS. I loved the sexual tension between her and Kirk and much preferred the captain whose duty left no room for love to the captain that sleeps with every female in space.
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