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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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Location: Ob der Enns, Austria
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:38 pm 
 

Yeah, there were so many awesome scenes I was keen to see, like
Spoiler: show
Syrio taking on the guards and Ser Meryn, Tyrion "recruiting" the hill tribesmen and presenting them to his father and Selmy telling the court to shove it. All were as usual well done or downright amazing. Especially the latter ("Even now I could cut through the five of you like carving a CAKE!").
I also think that Jason Mamoa does a really great job with Khal Drogo and manhandling the scenery with the Dothraki language.

Could have done without seeing Hodor's dick though. Whoops, spoiler alert. Sorry.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:35 pm 
 

Unsurprisingly, it was the best episode yet, at least as far as writing goes. Some of the directing was a bit iffy at times though... Drogo's cut was not too believable (in the book he says "just a scratch" cause he's all macho, but there's actually a flap of skin hanging, it's somewhat severe), the stableboy's stabbing felt a bit rushed, the wight's attack in the Old Bear's tower wasn't as scary as it should have been IMO (though still a good scene), it was unclear that Hodor was bathing so his naked appearance would probably seem to come out of nowhere, and there's this weird flash where they show Ned in the cell but nothing happens and it shifts to the throne room...? But, just minor things really.

Not crucial details, but I was sad to miss the following:
- Syrio's story of how he got raised to First Sword of Braavos;
- Joffrey going, "he called me boy! I want him killed!" to Ser Barristan;
- the Tysha story (probably moved to a later episode, or to S2);
- Daenerys's pregnant belly (seriously, WTF, she hardly looks pregnant at all);
- the Hound being raised to the Kingsguard.

The good:
- Sansa: "I'll be a queen just like you, I won't... hatch anything!" Cersei: "..." :lol:
- SHAGGA SON OF DOLF! HE WILL CUT OFF YOUR MANHOOD AND FEED IT TO THE GOATS! :headbang:
- Syrio! <333 (Bastard, he left his fate a mystery still);
- Robb being badass. "Call the banners";
- The Greatjon being badass;
- Drogo being badass;
- Ser Barristan being badass;
- "This is Bronn, son of...?" "...You wouldn't know him." :D
- The Hound's raspy laughter (this series needz moar Hound, really);
- Littlefinger's "naked knight" quip.

I liked how Robb let the scout go. Good way to establish his strategy
Spoiler: show
of letting Tywin think he's coming with his main force, when in fact he's splitting his strength in two to fight Jaime on one side of the river and Tywin on the other side :nods: I wish they had explained that for non-readers though, by the time his strategy takes effect in the next episode non-readers might have missed the significance of letting the scout go -- unless we see that guy report to Tywin in the next episode maybe?
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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:27 pm 
 

didn't Robb say at one point that they had 18k soldiers? and the scout had counted 20k before he was caught, so he would assume there were at least 20k but almost certainly more?

that's why I thought he let him go, because his numbers were bloated.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:40 pm 
 

The scout probably overcounted. I'm pretty sure they let him go for the reasons I outlined in the spoiler tag above.
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KC_Slaanesh
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:40 am 
 

Well re: Hodor's dick I remember the wildling chick making a comment about it in the books. As for the rest of the episode I loved the tension! Cersei's bitchiness becomes more apparent all the time, and good call Morrigan on the upsetting lack of Barristan calling Joffre "boy". The Wildlings look really cool too, and I really like how Bronn looks so understated in the tent full of dressed up soldiers, that was really cool. Best 2 lines in the show so far have been from that guy if you ask me. As for Drogo getting injured I thought the cut looked convincing enough. Daenarys could indeed look more pregnant but that's o.k. 2 episodes left I hope the finale is 2 hours long!
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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:55 am 
 

KC_Slaanesh wrote:
As for Drogo getting injured I thought the cut looked convincing enough.

Wait what? It's not like Morrigan said the cut looked fake, it just looks underwhelming and much less serious than the massive fucking gash that he received in the book. I too was upset by how small that cut was, I mean it's nothing! No need for fucking medical attention for that small cut.

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nasum
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:42 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:44 am 
 

Oh yeah, this episode was great, much darker feel than previous episodes. I only have to complain about Drogo's small paper cut, he was seriously injured in books and they had to use medical help. And doesn't Hodor appear naked in 3rd or 4th book
Spoiler: show
when they're already on the journey with Bran?

I also hate I can't remember all characters' names and details like Morrigan, it's been 5 years since I read them. :|
I can't wait for next episodes especially
Spoiler: show
for birth of dragons, that must be epic or I'll be seriously disappointed and will have to send bomb threats to HBO.
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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:58 am 
 

nasum wrote:
I can't wait for next episodes especially
Spoiler: show
for birth of dragons, that must be epic or I'll be seriously disappointed and will have to send bomb threats to HBO.

I'm so looking forward to that scene as well. I just finished reading the book this past weekend, and I was just enveloped by a wave of chills when I was reading that scene. It's one of those parts in which you have to put down the book and simply sit back so that you could take in the awesomeness of that scene. I have faith that HBO is going to do it right, but you never know dude.
I'm still excited though! :hyper:

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Gelal
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:33 am 
 

Well, I too have watched the latest episode, and I have only one thing to say: FUCK YEAH, SYRIO. :hyper:

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Ravenlord266
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:36 am 
 

Syrio's scene was badass! Great episode, although some things felt a little bit rushed, but no biggie.
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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:27 am 
 

I'm a bit sad. Why is Ned in captivity? Why are all these bad things happening? Seriously...Kinda pissed.
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Ravenlord266
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:13 am 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
I'm a bit sad. Why is Ned in captivity? Why are all these bad things happening? Seriously...Kinda pissed.


well Ned's in captivity because:
Spoiler: show
He was about to reveal that Joffrey is not the rightful heir to the throne, being the inbred abomination of Cersei and Jamie Lannister. The real heir to the throne would be the blacksmith's apprentice who is Robert Baratheon's bastard but also the only offspring he ever had before dying. Shit's about to go down because Robb, Eddard's oldest son, is calling the banners to war on the Lannisters, refusing to bow down to the boy king.


That should be it. Please correct me if I'm wrong or left some stuff out. Haven't read the books for a long time so I might've fucked up some name spelling.
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Gelal
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:30 am 
 

Ravenlord266 wrote:
ralfikk123 wrote:
I'm a bit sad. Why is Ned in captivity? Why are all these bad things happening? Seriously...Kinda pissed.


well Ned's in captivity because:
Spoiler: show
He was about to reveal that Joffrey is not the rightful heir to the throne, being the inbred abomination of Cersei and Jamie Lannister. The real heir to the throne would be the blacksmith's apprentice who is Robert Baratheon's bastard but also the only offspring he ever had before dying. Shit's about to go down because Robb, Eddard's oldest son, is calling the banners to war on the Lannisters, refusing to bow down to the boy king.


That should be it. Please correct me if I'm wrong or left some stuff out. Haven't read the books for a long time so I might've fucked up some name spelling.


Spoiler: show
Actually, the rightful heir would be Robert's brother Stannis. Bastards can't claim the throne, and Renly is younger than Stannis, so the crown goes to Stannis. This is explained by Ned, IIRC, when he discusses the topic with Littlefinger shortly before taking action and being betrayed. Also, the blacksmith's apprentice is not Robert's only offspring, although that's irrelevant because all of them are bastards and therefore not valid heirs.


Also you left out the main reason for Ned being captive: he trusted the wrong people. Namely, Littlefinger.

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Ravenlord266
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:41 am 
 

Good call, especially on Littlefinger. Thanks, I'm a bit rusty ;)
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Metantoine
Slave to Santa

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:42 pm 
 

great episode, maybe the best yet. I love the scenes with the Greatjon (the bannerman who lost fingers), the final episodes will be epic!
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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:04 pm 
 

Man I just don't want Ned to die.
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HumanWaste5150
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:36 pm 
 

Ned stark is in shit all the time because he's a bonafide tragic hero. He's well aware that if he didn't follow his code of honor, he'd have been safer and probably more successful but he follows his code of honour while being aware of this fact. its like Caitlyn Stark said in the beginning:

That’s what men always say when honor calls. That’s what you tell your families, tell yourselves. You do have a choice - and you’ve made it.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:55 pm 
 

As Gelal said, bastards cannot inherit their father's throne or even lordship, unless they've been legitimized by a king. That's why, centuries ago, all hell broke loose when king Aegon Targaryen the 4th legitimized ALL his bastards on his deathbed (and he had a bunch), which resulted in a bloody civil war that lasted a year and resulted in a great many deaths (and several pretenders still caused trouble for many generations after that).

(Also, major spoilers book 3)
Spoiler: show
King Tommen, via the small council, legitimizes Roose Bolton's bastard, Ramsay Snow, as Ramsay Bolton, as heir to the Dreadfort, as a reward for Roose Bolton's betrayal of Robb Stark during the Red Wedding. So Ramsay is now heir since he's been legitimized by the king. Poor Jeyne Poole has to be his wife, pretending to be Arya Stark. :(



Regarding Ned, he's in trouble because of all you guys said, and mostly because he didn't want to harm Cersei's children. He knew that if he revealed the truth to Robert first, his wrath would spell the end of Cersei AND her children (remember, Robert had no remorse over the Lannister's murders of Rhaegar's children during the rebellion, calling them "not children, but dragonspawn"), so he told Cersei while Robert was away (not knowing that Robert would come back dying, obviously) so she could escape. Of course, it was stupid, but at the same time, merciful and compassionate. As Varys told him, it was his "mercy" that killed Robert and will end up causing more deaths in the war that will follow. And what wasn't understandable was NOT following Littlefinger's plan to crown Joffrey and reign as regent, nor to take Renly's offer to seize the children as hostage (keeping them safe but having the upper hand on Cersei). All that because Stannis is the rightful heir? Poor Ned, as if the succession mattered considering how Robert got his throne. :lol:
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nasum
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:02 pm 
 

Seriously, how do you remember all those details?
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It's probably his idea of metal. That Black Sabbath and Trouble stuff doesn't have enough gangsta giving the finger.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:50 pm 
 

I'm currently re-reading the series. :P
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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:59 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
All that because Stannis is the rightful heir? Poor Ned, as if the succession mattered considering how Robert got his throne. :lol:

Ned is Lawful Good to a fault.
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HumanWaste5150
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:01 pm 
 

Yeah, although I think there is a bit of rebellion in his actions. Despite what is best for the realm and following his friend and king's orders to kill the unborn child, he decides against it and resigns. I think Barrister is lawful good more than Stark although he's not far enough to be Chaotic Good.
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KC_Slaanesh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:36 pm 
 

I think Ned's dislike of the Lannisters played a role in his decision making as well, the situation spiraled out of control because of he and Catelyn's desire for revenge for their injured son. Still sound and just reasoning, but definitely tinged by animosity. I love how the royal caravan spends like 3 days at Winterfell and completely ruins everything.
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Gelal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:13 pm 
 

HumanWaste5150 wrote:
Yeah, although I think there is a bit of rebellion in his actions. Despite what is best for the realm and following his friend and king's orders to kill the unborn child, he decides against it and resigns. I think Barrister is lawful good more than Stark although he's not far enough to be Chaotic Good.


Lawful does not necessarily mean law-abiding. Ned Stark is lawful good: good for obvious reasons, lawful because he adheres to a strict code of honor. It is that code of honor that makes him be against the decision to kill Daenerys to the point of resigning as Hand of the King, and what makes him tell Cersei that he plans to tell King Robert the truth about her incestuous relationship with her brother. That, and the fact that both are acts of good.

For example, notice that Ned's not against the Mad King being killed, but he finds the fact that one of his bodyguards (Jaime Lannister) backstabbed him extremely dishonorable and disgusting. To Ned, killing the Mad King was an act of good because it meant getting rid of a vicious murderer, but backstabbing him was unlawful (i.e. contrary to his code of honor).

In fact, Barristan is probably less lawful than Ned, considering his reaction to the "reward" he's given for his many years of service. He practically goes against the oath he swore when he entered the Royal Guard, and is very disrespectful to Joffrey despite considering him the rightful King. Barristan's pride is far stronger than his sense of duty and honor.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:02 pm 
 

It's not the backstabbing itself; in the book, Jaime slit his throat with his sword rather than backstabbing him. The problem is that Jaime was a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard, who pledged an oath to protect the king no matter what. Like Robert said, "Someone had to kill Aerys", but Ned responds that it should have been anyone except a Sworn Brother.

Of course, we learn in A Storm of Swords
Spoiler: show
that had Jaime not killed Aerys, the entire city of King's Landing would have been burnt down, so Jaime had to act quickly to prevent it, and that's why he abandoned his oath in order to save the city, but he's still a "Kingslayer" and an oathbreaker in the eyes of everyone.
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HumanWaste5150
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:29 pm 
 

Gelal wrote:
HumanWaste5150 wrote:
Yeah, although I think there is a bit of rebellion in his actions. Despite what is best for the realm and following his friend and king's orders to kill the unborn child, he decides against it and resigns. I think Barrister is lawful good more than Stark although he's not far enough to be Chaotic Good.


Lawful does not necessarily mean law-abiding. Ned Stark is lawful good: good for obvious reasons, lawful because he adheres to a strict code of honor. It is that code of honor that makes him be against the decision to kill Daenerys to the point of resigning as Hand of the King, and what makes him tell Cersei that he plans to tell King Robert the truth about her incestuous relationship with her brother. That, and the fact that both are acts of good.

For example, notice that Ned's not against the Mad King being killed, but he finds the fact that one of his bodyguards (Jaime Lannister) backstabbed him extremely dishonorable and disgusting. To Ned, killing the Mad King was an act of good because it meant getting rid of a vicious murderer, but backstabbing him was unlawful (i.e. contrary to his code of honor).

In fact, Barristan is probably less lawful than Ned, considering his reaction to the "reward" he's given for his many years of service. He practically goes against the oath he swore when he entered the Royal Guard, and is very disrespectful to Joffrey despite considering him the rightful King. Barristan's pride is far stronger than his sense of duty and honor.


Yeah, I definitely see what you mean. However, I always thought Chaotic good was a result of the clash between cold laws and personal honour which is what I saw in Ned Stark. The laws he broke were not written of stone but of political and strategic experience. I will concede that I probably have a warped understanding of "Chaotic vs Lawful Good". Of course, I am looking at it from a viewpoint that is created through a more rationalistic world without grand narratives, causes or codes of honour whereas I probably should assume that the code of honour is more embedded in that society.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:28 pm 
 

Pretty sure that insipid D&D alignments are insufficient to describe the complexity of GRRM's characters (or of real people in general, for that matter), making this whole debate moot... just saying. :P
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HumanWaste5150
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:32 pm 
 

Yes, I also wanted to get to that. GRRM's characters are obviously not stock characters and this was a testament to Stark and GRRM I think
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ralfikk123
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:48 am 
 

Question here: Why did Littlefinger betray Ned? Also why are the advisers (the old guy, the bald one,) against Ned? I mean aren't they his friends? I'm confused here..
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KC_Slaanesh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:07 am 
 

It's nothing personal the people at court stay alive by guessing who's power is on the ascendant and rolling with them. That's politics, and Ned did some foolish things that were discussed above that clearly put the Lannisters at the immediate advantage in the capital when King Robert died. They're all fair weather allies. Except for Pycelle, he's partially senile it seems like, so he jumps to conclusions about Ned's treason. Was he this senile-seeming in the books?
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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:29 am 
 

The eunuch seems like he likes Ned, just couldn't ally himself with a sinking ship? Based on that prison scene. I don't know.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:05 am 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
Question here: Why did Littlefinger betray Ned? Also why are the advisers (the old guy, the bald one,) against Ned? I mean aren't they his friends? I'm confused here..

To elaborate, why Littlefinger does anything is a rather complex question, and cannot be answered easily, especially not without spoiling the first four books, I'm afraid. ;) KC is generally correct, it's just politics, but remember that Littlefinger is/was in love with Ned's wife... that surely means something. Look at how he behaves around Sansa (who apparently looks a lot like Catelyn Tully did when younger). Ho-hum. But, anyway, surely you noticed that Littlefinger wants to drive a deep wedge between the Lannisters and the Starks; he lied to Ned and Catelyn about the assassin's dagger belonging to Tyrion. Yet he made sure to feed enough information to Ned about the bastards, the suspicions about Jon Arryn's murder, etc. The why of that is not yet revealed in the series.
Regarding the "old guy", you mean Grand Maester Pycelle, he's not so much against Ned as he is a Lannister servant (and yes he's getting kind of senile, he's pretty pitiful really, but he's stupidly loyal to the Lannisters). He serves the queen directly.
The bald eunuch, Varys, is not really against Ned; he simply didn't lift a finger to get him out of trouble because he likes surviving too much. As he told Ned, "do you see a hero when you look at me?". As the master of spies, he's despised by everyone, though everyone still requires his service but are too proud to really admit it or respect him as a person because of the dirty work he does, so Varys survives by being useful to those in power.

Varys is one of my favourite characters, he's just superbly crafted. :) And he's very mysterious, he has his own agenda but it's still unclear (as of the latest book) as to what it's all about. Same with Littlefinger.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:32 am 
 

ralfikk123 wrote:
Question here: Why did Littlefinger betray Ned? Also why are the advisers (the old guy, the bald one,) against Ned? I mean aren't they his friends? I'm confused here..

Varys must act the part in court, as he acts the part everywhere, to maintain his safety. What he truly wants, who he serves if anyone, indeed who he truly is, are mysteries to be revealed later (maybe). For the time being he is just the Spider; friend to nobody, enemy to nobody. Officially, he is the servant of the King and his council, but Varys' agendas are, seemingly, his own.
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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:28 am 
 

Sansa's an odd character. In certain ways it's easy to forget that she's a Stark because she stands in such, *ahem*....stark contrast to the other Stark children. Whereas the rest of them seem very strong-minded and willful, Sansa comes off as naïve and childish, almost as though she was raised by different parents.
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299796kms
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:28 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:59 pm 
 

Herebe Spoilers!

You could say the Starks are naive themselves, however. Ned's actions as Hand do portray a certain lack of awarness of the intricacies of running a kingdom. He believes LF's assertion that the blade belonged to Tyrion, despite his knowledge of what type a person Littlefinger is (and that he has, or at least had, the hots for his wife). He openly tells his opponent that he knows she's inbreeding, openly proclaims Tywin, the Napoleon of Westeros, a traitor, etc.

I think Sansa can be excluded somewhat because she's so young (12ish IIRC?) and is caught up in notions of fairytale romance, not unlike her father who's caught up in notions that everyone acts "honourably"

Looking forward to the rest of the series :D
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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:00 am 
 

I figure Ned isn't naive, just exceptionally honorable. I'm sure he knew telling Cersei could have negative repercussions, he just cared more about doing the "right" thing. That's my take anyway, haven't read the novels. Maybe being so honor-bound is naive though. And yeah, placing trust in Littlefinger was a questionable course of action.
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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:14 am 
 

I don't think he anticipated that there would be negative repercussions for himself if he informed Cersei. He believed that Robert would come back soon and set things right.

Many of the characters are deluded or naive in one way or another.
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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:58 am 
 

he was a bit startled when she went on that rant about her wrath.
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flexodus
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 4:16 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:22 pm 
 

Aaaaaahhh. Easily the best episode so far tonight
Spoiler: show
but I cannot BELIEVE that Ned died! Never would have guessed that in a million years, I was almost certain that Arya was somehow going to save him, but I guess everything is fair game in this show. The nearing death of Khal Drogo is also immensely interesting me as well, and I'm on the edge of my seat to see how that witch's BLOOD MAGIC affects him. Maybe he'll turn into a zombie? Metal. Also, :lol: at Tyrion getting trampled before the battle.


The season finale is going to be insane, I don't know how I'm going to wait a whole week.

EDIT: and FUCK Joffrey! Hated that little shit since I first saw him and what happened in tonight's episode only exacerbates my rage.
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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:12 pm 
 

Yeah, bet that episode came as a shock to people who haven't read the book.
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