Well, I don´t know if I'll find the words to explain what I want to discuss here, anyway, here I go. Being music a form of art is, IMO, a way to express feelings and opinions that comes from inspiration, on the other hand, political propaganda (it doesn´t matter what kind of propaganda, in this case is the same) is a terrenal (if that word applies here) concept. So, the lyrics of a political oriented band are not as "artistic" as other kind of lyrics. I guess this is different than religious lyrics because they involve spiritual matters, but political issues are somehow outside the "creative" process of an artistic expression.
So, this has any sense to you?, what do you think about the use of artistic expressions to comunicate non artistic concepts or ideas?, and last but not least, what band/s do you think that use this both things and the result is good?

"artistic" is such a loose term. What makes politics different from anything else? To some people, politics may be very personal to them.

What makes lyrics art lies elsewhere than in the subject. A skillful writer can wrtie artistic test out of almost any subject. What you are obviously referring to is thinly veiled, badly written political messages in lyrics, as lyrivs with a political message often are (or at leats, these are the lyrics of said type that are most apparent to the listener). Your point is fallacious, however, because the subject itself doesn't make text more or less artistic.

I've found that preachy lyrics tend to be of little artistic merit unless they are creatively delivered, or some real new ideas are brought to the table.

What determines if an idea is artistic or not?

I assume your idea of "artistic" lyrics is a hail of indecipherable metaphors and whining.

Any idea can be artistic.

Kill niggers and support the white race can be artistic.
Also support the opressed and the third world leaders can be also.

I agree. I happen to like some of the old political punk rock (such as Dead Kennedys and Bad Religion) and I don't find them preachy. Bitter and sarcastic, yes, but not preachy.

I guess I want to say that some bands use their music to give a political message, with no artistic intentions, if a band has a political or social message, but the music and the concept is more important than the mesasge, I guess you have an "artistic" approuch, but when you say "Kill niggers and support the white race" in a song I don´t think that band has an artistic approuch...

In some cases, I think the message/ideals behind the art can be just as important as the art itself. Of course I pick a chose though, which is unfortunate. Stuachly opposed to NS, i still love Nokturnal Mortum's Goat Horns as well as a slew of bands who allude to NS. In that case i chose to avoid what ideals they carry and refuse to buy their merch. On the other hand, bands like Brutal Truth, Anthrax, Assuck, Aus Rotten, Discharge, and Phobia to name a few really psyche me up and I enjoy their message and the ideas greatly behind their music (except for the whole meat=murder bs). In terms of lyrics I find this to be important, because if a band's singing about social issues or concerns that i care about it has some meaning to me and something I invest in the music itself.

I think it's important to realize that in the end, what's good is what sounds good, but there's no reason to not enjoy a message the artist is trying to convey. While I listen to band X because the music is genuinely good, or band Z because of the views they espouse are great for a particular mood, the bands have their worth all the same.

It's ignorant and stupid to say politics have no place in music, as long as you're not too preachy it can be a nice dynamic to compliment the actual sound.

Just by case: I was being ironic.
However bands that sing those things exist...

Most 'in the face' political lyrics, being NS or anything, seem to be in a 94% bullshit for me.

I love propaganda music. Especially Stalinistic & Maoistic stuff. Try to collect as much as possible. Same goes for old Chinese propaganda posters by the way. Marvellous stuff!

I recently bought a compilation CD with chinese stuff (cover below). Translated some stuff with the woman who sold it

Certain bands have such a strong level of dogmatism, that you can tell they want to brainwash their listeners. I prefer a band like the Dead Kennedys, who's message is more "think for yourself" than "agree with us", that way younger, more naive people can draw their own conclusions from what they are told. Some people find it preachy, but I think with the state the world is in, it's better to be vocal about your beliefs rather than keeping them to yourself.

Tchaikovsky's 1812 ouverture is the most famous example of musical propaganda. It was composed to commemorate the Russian victory over the Napoleonic forces. If you have a keen ear, you'll notice how one section begins with La Marseilleise (sp?), France's national anthem, and as the piece progresses the theme becomes quieter and weaker and is replaced by the thunderous horn section, cannon fire, etc.

Shostakovich's 7th (Lenningrad) Symphony is another example, meant to symbolize struggle against the Nazis.

I took a course called Art as Propaganda in Uni and it really opened my eyes, and got me to appreciate art. Basically, everything is propaganda, since the word means propagating an idea. Not just more obvious examples of this, like say Napalm Death or NSBM, but even something banal like Kiss lyrics can be construed as propaganda, since Kiss are advocating that all you need to be happy in life is slutty women, guitars, slutty women, rock n' roll and um, more slutty women.

Don't confuse ideology with propaganda.

Every art has a certain ideology, that can be nearer to this or that position, but that doesn't transform it in propaganda.
The line is not totally clear in some aspects, but you can see a different aproach in a song that it's called "Kill niggers" and "The Crying Orc" however both songs are probably composed by a neo-nazi.

(PD: no, Burzum hasn't got a song 'Kill niggers' it's just an example...)

Lyrics with a political message can be inspiring, tought-provoking, and even in some cases educational. However, they need to be delivered in an interesting manner, not just a simple recitation of beliefs set to music.

Skyclad is a band who I think does this quite well.

A lot of NSBM band approach the topic in a very abstract way. That is artistic.

since i'm not really multi-lingual, i don't understand the lyrics to much of the music i listen to. sometimes i can translate the song titles, that helps. one thing i've found is that if the music is intelligent and well-written, the lyrics tend to be as well. there are NS bands that have your stereotypical hateful lyrics, but often their music is simplistic and one-dimensional, and equally uninteresting. later Napalm Death is another example of the same to my ears: boring, one-dimensional music accompanied by preachy, topical, quasi-literate lyrics.

Hmm.

Just like politics can be very personal and even emotional for some, so is music. I really don't care if there's X politician using X song for their campaign. However, I think it's kind of lame of them to do so. It's like a huge popularity contest, then again, that's politics AND the music industry.

But people are easily misled and herded into "what's cool" and "what's hot" because of such decisions by politicians.

It isn't a bad tactic, but just as usual, music is open for interpretation, and I just wonder just how personal of a choice it is for those politicians campaigning with certain "cool songs" as their theme.

For example, if I were to run for office, I'd probably choose something along the lines of "I Hate You" by Slayer. It'd be a very personal choice, but would it get me the votes? No. So, I conclude it's pretty lame to choose a song that is NOT an original by those involved in the campaign.

The question about politics in music is: Why those bands sing about politics? Because it's cool? Because they feel it inside? Or what else? And the difference between ideology and propaganda... Tha's a cool topic, indeed.

Well: in my opinion, A lot (if not all) of the politically oriented bands do it without an artistic touch. Sorry, but to me that's it.
When you do some music, and you think to be an artist by putting politics in music, then that's your behaviour. So, because of this, what I hear or read from your lyrics is what I get directly from you.

Unfortunately, in politically oriented bands, this doesn't happen: lots of NS bands, after having been boycotted by Antifas, begin to make it incoherent, and they say that they are not a politically oriented band, that their lyrics must be "interpreted" etc. etc. (The same is for left wing oriented bands, of course)

Then, no: there is NO art in this:
There is no art in holding an absolutely common behaviour without any personal view,
There is No art making the music (and music is a form of art) a medium at the politics' service. In this way you use music not as an art, but just as a medium to spread political views, that often become unfortunately political deliriums (both from left and right hand politics).
And above all: There is No art when NS bands, after having copped and denounced by Antifas, begin to say that they are not a politically oriented band, that their lyrics must be interpreted and other lies like that. This is No art, frankly.

That's because the image of the band that you get is the one that you get reading lyrics, looking at their gigs etc. Once you've been labelled, it's no use to hide to try to get rid of that label. The true artist fears no label.

I can't stand politically correct punk bands, although I occasionally love it when bands have politically incorrect lyrics (and with this I do not mean trash like Vaginal Jesus or Angry Aryans or similar shit). This doesn't mean I have to agree with the band's message, though. Even though I'm not a national-socialist I find Stahlgewitter's lyrics to be very daring, intelligent, and interesting.

I also could bring the works of the Blazebirth Hall. They are militant NS guys, but some works of them are of the greatest pieces of BM around (thinking in Branikald's 'Rdjandalir' and Forest's 'Like a Blaze above the ashes') and there aren't any passages saying "kill niggers, dude", "Hail mein fuhrer, douh!"...
Well, some people say that they became NS a bit after these albums so also it's not a good example, but the point it's showed...
When the politics are in the lyrics, more "in the face", it mostly turns out to be bullshit for me; however I'd would need to pay more attention to bands like Napalm Death, Thor's Hammer, etc. that are very accepted in their circles...