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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:33 pm 
 

Okay cool. The PS1 had many awesome RPGs. Here are those I would strongly recommend for it (I'm sure you probably played some of those, like the FFs, but I'm writing them down just in case):

- Final Fantasy Tactics
- Suikoden I & II
- Wild ARMs
- Xenogears
- Breath of Fire III & IV
- Final Fantasy VII
- Tactics Ogre (though if you can get the PSP remake, or the Super Famicom translated version, it's probably better than the 15-FPS slow-loading PS1 port -_-)

Here are those I would tell you to avoid because they were utter shite:

- SaGa Frontier [any]
- Final Fantasy VIII
- Legend of Dragoon
- Legend of Legaia
- Tales of [anything]
- Star Ocean [any]
- Chrono Cross

Everyone also fellates Vagrant Story and Valkyrie Profile, and while I don't think they go in the "shit" category, I never really got into them either. YMMV.
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HellBlazer
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:48 am
Posts: 2119
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:38 pm 
 

DCCLXXVII wrote:
Anyone here play Hearthstone? It's a very simple card game, but I love it to death.


I've been playing it some recently. It's strange, it's basically just a streamlined simplified version of Magic but... somehow it's still very fun and addictive.

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Trashy_Rambo
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:04 pm
Posts: 1823
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:43 pm 
 

I hated FFVIII too (Largely due to the "Draw" system being an absolute chore). As far as the Tales series goes, I loved Tales of Symphonia, but haven't particularly enjoyed any of the other ones I tried.
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volutetheswarth
Our Lady of Perpetual Butthurt

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
Posts: 3489
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:25 pm 
 

AcidWorm wrote:
List of the most pirated game by states from torrent sites:

Wherever is Wolfenstein, is the place to be. They've got the priorities in order.

Looking now and apparently it's some place called 'Nebraska'.

Nebraska it is.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:34 pm 
 

Holy fucking shit.
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3987
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:40 pm 
 

Don't ever, ever move to Nebraska. Kansas, Iowa, South Dakota, sure. Just not Nebraska.





What the fuck is Goat Simulator and why the hell is everyone in Delaware so interested in it?

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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 4797
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:58 pm 
 

For reference to you 'Straylians, Nebraska is terrible and like nothing but corn and farms. And I say that (for reference to my fellow 'Mericans) as someone who grew up in Wisconsin and went to university in Iowa.

Goat Simulator is basically a giant physics sandbox where you run around as a goat as destroy things/headbut people/jump off cliffs and take advantage of the deliberately exaggerated physics to humorous effect. Was originally developed as a physics engine demo for Coffee Stain studios, but released after some footage leaked and people thought it would be fun to play for the lul - z. Some people think it's gimmicky bullshit, but I'd say at $10 you're getting a decent deal for maybe 3 hours of entertainment (though mind-altering substances tend to help.)
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DCCLXXVII
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:04 pm
Posts: 212
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:20 pm 
 

Goat Simulator is also often horribly abused by YouTubers such as PewDiePie who make videos of themselves yelling and screeching over boring gameplay. ._.
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volutetheswarth
Our Lady of Perpetual Butthurt

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
Posts: 3489
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:03 pm 
 

Smoking_Gnu wrote:
For reference to you 'Straylians, Nebraska is terrible and like nothing but corn and farms.

And computers apparently.

Kinda glad Wolfenstein lovers are over there and not one state across in Colorado though.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 11852
Location: In the Arena
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:27 pm 
 

DCCLXXVII wrote:
Goat Simulator is also often horribly abused by YouTubers such as PewDiePie who make videos of themselves yelling and screeching over boring gameplay. ._.

PewDiePie also made something like $4 million last year so maybe screeching over boring gameplay is more appealing than you think.
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DCCLXXVII
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:04 pm
Posts: 212
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:39 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
PewDiePie also made something like $4 million last year so maybe screeching over boring gameplay is more appealing than you think.


I was told he made like 750K a year. Guess he's grown in popularity.
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Xeogred
Thunderbolt from Hell

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 7154
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:36 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Everyone also fellates Vagrant Story and Valkyrie Profile, and while I don't think they go in the "shit" category, I never really got into them either. YMMV.

I'm a bit surprised, because I feel like Vagrant Story is one of the closer things to Souls out there. Awesome solo dungeon crawling with crazy depth in the combat/workbench stuff. And that OST is my personal favorite from that composer.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:44 am 
 

Well, I didn't like it back when it came out, everything seemed so tedious with bad controls and just not fun, but maybe I'd like it more today? I don't know.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Kahalachan
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 1:46 am
Posts: 573
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:56 am 
 

Chrono Cross sucked in comparison to Chrono Trigger. It had big shoes to fill. But I don't recall it sucking as a game.

Wild Arms is awesome though. It's simple and fun. While Xenogears is grander and so far I like it more, it had flaws. Wild Arms has been nothing but 100% fun for me.


I love holding down X and dashing to this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Nvju7zDrA

I also like holding down X and dashing to this song but I bump into things all the time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rPqY3DB5ng

I can't hold down X and dash when this song plays but I don't want to. I just want to read dialog and listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChtPqW8fIfc

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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 10858
Location: Oswego, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:58 am 
 

I never played Vagrant Story, but I'll always love how years after it came out, the creators were like "by the way, this takes place in Ivalice". It always seemed like a really cheap "wait, people don't like this very much, let's just make up a reason to connect it to a game they like"
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BarryLamarBonds
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:36 pm
Posts: 342
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:57 am 
 

I'm amazed that New York is pirating FIFA 13 at higher rates than any other game. That's not even last year's FIFA game.

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Xeogred
Thunderbolt from Hell

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 7154
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:46 pm 
 

Is Wild Arms 2 good? I always heard contrasting things about the two. Maybe I'm mixing it up with Lunar.

I've been meaning to hit up the first Grandia too, always heard good things about that one.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:14 am 
 

So the Pillars of Eternity public beta finally leaked.

Anyone played it yet?
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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
Posts: 5581
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:32 am 
 

Damn, some of those environments look incredible. Checking this out also led me to images to the upcoming Torment: Tides of Numenara, which looks like it could be fucking amazing. Wow. Kinda surprised I haven't heard more mentions of it on the board yet.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:17 am 
 

Indeed! It's all meticulously hand-drawn, and creator Josh Sawyer has gone on record as saying the world/map size of the game is roughly 75% the size of Baldur's Gate II.

Baldur's Gate II takes roughly 200 hours to get through. Once.

So yeah, it's gonna be massive. There's a good chance it'll be the best $20 I've ever spent. Tides looks great too, of course. Wasteland 2 as well, which should be coming out within mere DAYS.

Good god. Such an amazing year for RPGs.
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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:06 pm
Posts: 4578
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:41 am 
 

I don't have the damn time! Between all those and the new Divinity...
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HellBlazer
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:48 am
Posts: 2119
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:00 am 
 

And Wasteland 2's coming out next month, dudes.

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Expedience
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:22 am
Posts: 4509
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:44 am 
 

The final fight in Risen 3 is bullshit. I know you die-hard action fans will disagree with me but I don't consider the series an action series, that's why I like it. You think you're doing well and then the difficulty goes up 500%. I wouldn't have had a problem if I wasn't killing enemies with 2 hits until the final minutes, and at least then I would have put more points into toughness and practiced some more. Yeah, I'm bitter. I'm not an action gamer nor do I want to be. And it's not even worth the effort, considering the ending sequence the game treats you to afterwards.

Another thing that is bullshit is the minimap telling you where treasure and quests are. Yeah, you don't have to use it but it's like including a walkthrough with the game, and most quests are designed with the intention that you use the markers. How much better would it be if the game didn't say "here's the location of the treasure" and actually gave clues for you to find it, like "south from the waterfall under the overhanging rock on the isle where the such-and-such dwell" or something.

A shame because most of the game was excellent.

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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 4797
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:09 am 
 

What is it with the string of otherwise excellent video games that shit the bed in the last 15 minutes? (Mass Effect 3, Deus Ex HR, apparently Risen 3 now...) Seems like some AAA developers have forgotten how to do a fitting final boss/wrap-up.
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OzzyApu
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:11 am
Posts: 10821
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:11 am 
 

Smoking_Gnu wrote:
What is it with the string of otherwise excellent video games that shit the bed in the last 15 minutes? (Mass Effect 3,...

On PC, MEHEM + Citadel Epilogue fixes that problem :)

Though I will admit that these games have gone more for big climactic endings rather than memorable boss fights. Even the TR reboot had a good end sequence with a shit, on-the-rails last boss fight.
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Xeogred
Thunderbolt from Hell

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 7154
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:57 pm 
 

I watched a full run of Silent Hill Shattered Memories. I mean the game looked like barf and not even fun to play, some amusing commentary made it bearable. How about that M Knight Shamalaka twist at the end? Seriously? Yikes.

Playing Origins now which at least looks and plays like the originals. Doesn't seem bad but I can already tell the story/characters probably won't leave much of an impact.

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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 4797
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:26 pm 
 

I've never played Silent Hill on account of never owning a Playstation variant, (though I'm familiar with the plot/etc) but the demo for the new Hideo Kojima-directed reboot looks pretty damn cool.
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Jophelerx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:22 pm
Posts: 1470
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:31 pm 
 

Semi on-topic, I started Vagrant Story today after having bought it a month or two ago and thought it was shit. Not sure if I should continue with it. Opinions?
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Xeogred
Thunderbolt from Hell

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 7154
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:50 pm 
 

Give it a little time.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:55 pm 
 

Expedience wrote:
The final fight in Risen 3 is bullshit. I know you die-hard action fans will disagree with me but I don't consider the series an action series, that's why I like it. You think you're doing well and then the difficulty goes up 500%. I wouldn't have had a problem if I wasn't killing enemies with 2 hits until the final minutes, and at least then I would have put more points into toughness and practiced some more. Yeah, I'm bitter. I'm not an action gamer nor do I want to be. And it's not even worth the effort, considering the ending sequence the game treats you to afterwards.

Another thing that is bullshit is the minimap telling you where treasure and quests are. Yeah, you don't have to use it but it's like including a walkthrough with the game, and most quests are designed with the intention that you use the markers. How much better would it be if the game didn't say "here's the location of the treasure" and actually gave clues for you to find it, like "south from the waterfall under the overhanging rock on the isle where the such-and-such dwell" or something.

A shame because most of the game was excellent.

Odd; I thought the end-boss was just about the best thing PB ever made in regards to that. Also, you get a more complete ending if you manage to keep all crew-members on your team.

Nahsil wrote:
Between all those and the new Divinity...

The game was really, really good, but the design choice to give all enemies randomized inventories was a rather annoying one. It got to the point where the encounters were "easy as pie, easy as pie, easy as pie, DIE, repeat," that the luster really started to dwindle towards late game.

Still excellent of course, but no Risen 3 :P .

Speaking of: shameless self-promotion time. In response to the brutal hammering this game has received from the likes of Angry Joe et al, I recorded a couple of videos detailing how the melee combat in this game is actually really good, provided you aren't an idiot.

Here's an extremely brief video detailing how rolling is not nearly as integral to the game as most would have you believe. I made an earlier video a day ago which has received a bit more views/feedback, but my voice sounded awful so I'll not be posting it here :P .
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VoidOfEternity
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:18 pm
Posts: 279
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:56 pm 
 

I spent a good while today playing Vampire Killer on my MSX. It's interesting just how different it is from the NES Castlevania. Playing it on the MSX keyboard was a bit of a bitch though, so I modded a generic Genesis controller to work with the MSX. I managed to do waaay better in the game when I used the Genesis controller than the MSX keyboard. Go figure.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 11852
Location: In the Arena
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:02 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Here's an extremely brief video detailing how rolling is not nearly as integral to the game as most would have you believe. I made an earlier video a day ago which has received a bit more views/feedback, but my voice sounded awful so I'll not be posting it here :P .

Looks pretty cool. You sounded fine on the videos too, just gotta watch your mic placement. Well, I'll get to the Risen series eventually, just waiting for good sales. Any games in the series I should definitely avoid?
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:34 am 
 

Thanks!

I love them all but I'm also a hopeless Piranha Bytes fanboy. Most people seem to dislike Risen 2 because the melee combat is really tricky and weird (might make a video about that sometime too because a lot of people just misunderstand how you're supposed to approach it), the environments are pretty linear/unexplorable and nearly every system in the game was simplified. Unfortunately, Risen 3's story builds heavily on that of R2, so it's not really recommended you skip it. Could always just watch a Let's Play series, I suppose...

Ever played any of the Gothic games; specifically, the first two? The voice acting in both is atrocious and the graphics DEFINITELY don't hold up to today, but the gameplay and basic story are pretty much unparalleled in the action RPG genre, imho. I still play both of them perhaps once every two years. I also don't have a whole lot of compunction pirating them because their publisher went out of business and the dev team lost the rights to them long ago.
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Expedience
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:22 am
Posts: 4509
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:00 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Odd; I thought the end-boss was just about the best thing PB ever made in regards to that. Also, you get a more complete ending if you manage to keep all crew-members on your team.


Link? I checked a few playthroughs and they were all the same. I lost the ghost due to my high humanity.

I was more pissed about the imbalance. Next time I'll play as a demon-hunter, voodoo has no real protection spell like runes apparently do; the one it does have (rebound) is pretty useless so after dying about 8 times I turned it to easy and got it done.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:55 am 
 

I dunno. I just read it via Google Translate on some German forum, so maybe I'm wrong. You apparently also needed to do all of the companion quests AND the parrot quest for it to trigger, or at least so claims these anonymous Germans.

There is definitely a slight variation in the ending based on good/evil alignment, but it's not massive. It's just really odd how truncated the final moments of the game feel, because unlike most of their previous games, it really didn't look like PB ran out of money this time. I mean, the final area alone is one of the biggest and coolest things Piranha Bytes has ever created, and every single one of your seven possible companions has extensive dialog during roaming in it too. Why there wasn't an ending conversation with each one is beyond me, leading me to believe/hope it was either accidentally left out or rendered inaccessible if you don't do everything correctly with your companions. It certainly wouldn't be the FIRST time they stole from Mass Effect 2 :P .

As to the end boss: I had no issue beating it on Hard but you're right, Demon Hunter spells and weapon masteries are so ridiculously overpowered they honestly made the game a little bit too easy; the End Boss to me was a fun, refreshing challenge after cheesing through the previous 300 enemies without so much as a swig from a liquor bottle.
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 11852
Location: In the Arena
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:17 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Ever played any of the Gothic games; specifically, the first two?

Nope, it's one of those classic RPGs I just totally missed the boat on, like the Ultima series and Might and Magic. I always liked fantasy and sci-fi, but back when they were coming out I only had very limited computer time and a very limited budget for games, and most of that went to RTS's like Warcraft 1, the original C&C, and later Red Alert 2/Starcraft. My friends didn't really play RPGs either, so I never got into them until later. Probably the first one I seriously played was Morrowind in 2002. I've been catching up on what I missed, but there's an awful lot and they tend to be massive time investments. Just as the most recent example, Geneforge 1 took me just under 100 hours to beat. That's a lot of game.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:31 pm 
 

Geneforge 1 is excellent. Understood! I remember having to turn every single graphics setting down to its lowest possible option in order to get either game to play on my parents' horrible computer. I still don't think I have fonder memories for any other game, though.

I'd strongly suggest you start with Risen, then; it's a great mix of the old, hardcore style of the first two Gothics with the more accessible, graphically updated modern PB games. I own the DRM-free GoG copy of the game, which includes the manual and (amazing) soundtrack, and I could upload it without much difficulty (it's only 1.5 gigs!). Game is worth it alone for John-Rhys Davies and Gollum TOGETHER IN THE SAME DAMN GAME.
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Xeogred
Thunderbolt from Hell

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:28 pm
Posts: 7154
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:54 pm 
 

I just wrapped up Silent Hill Origins. I'm going to give that one a thumbs up. It didn't really blatantly go into too much detail about the original like I was expecting, so that was nice. And as always, it's just so wonderful to be back in the original lovely Silent Hill and this hellish incarnation of the otherworld, probably my favorite. I almost want to say I'd put this one on the same level as SH3. It was longer and it was nice to be able to roam around Silent Hill itself again, which was something I missed from SH3. It was there if I recall correctly... but not as open as it was in SH1-SH2. I guess my only complaint about SH3 is that it's just so damn short and I don't know how I feel about the gags (toilet) and Heather (dying dying dying), as if, the game was almost mocking itself? But it still had the quirkiness and memorable moments like the phone call, the hospital mirror room... etc. Origins was kind of lacking some standout moments like that. I think if Origins had another good character or two, and a few more creative moments, it would be awesome.

Glad the music was good though. I think this composer himself didn't give a shit about Shattered Memories, that stuff was awful. As for Origins, I really liked this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOJkDvegGbY

I think I already said it recently, but looking back on it last year already, I truly believe SH4 left a much bigger impact on me than SH3 did. So I'd probably say 1, 2, and 4 are my favorites by a good bit. In comparison though, I'd put SH3 above some of the weaker RE's, etc. It's still a great game, just wish it didn't feel like an afterthought.

Whelp... I guess it's Homecoming and Downpour from here. I'll try my best to approach them open minded, kind of just seeing them as general survival horror games. But hearing that the otherworld moments in Downpour are like Shattered Memories where you just have to run from things, kind of pisses me off... eh.

On the bright side, the new one will probably be the real deal, so I'm stoked.

Next up is Fatal Frame 3 though. Never played this one, so this will be interesting.

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BloodSacrificeShaman
Leopold Herman Stotch

Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 3:20 am
Posts: 2109
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:00 pm 
 

Well, at 68 hours, I've finished Risen 3. My expectations going in were kind of bleak, but they certainly blew them out of the goddamned water. Absolutely loved the game. They took the potential Risen 2 had, realised it and then improved upon it in almost every way. Only major problem I had is the difficulty. It just gets so insanely easy too quickly. They really need to patch in a harder difficulty setting or something, or hell a mod. Anything to make it more challenging. I found that from around mid-late chapter 2 onward, the only enemies that could give me any kind of challenge at all were lindworms, soul eaters and shadow guardians. Almost everything else was pretty damn simple, even without a companion. So hopefully that gets worked on.

On the contrary, the final boss was intense as fuck. Wasn't expecting a satisfying boss fight in a PB game, but they did it. So I was quite pleased with that. Skull Island was absolutely awesomely designed as well.

Not with the ending though. It wasn't a bad ending, but this is supposedly the last Risen. There will be no more. You don't end a franchise by sailing away into the sunset. What about the Titans? They're still out there, and the Titan Lords. You can't end a storyline with a cliffhanger. So unless they outright lied and will do a Risen 4, then that will always be a sour note.

But anyway, other than a few gripes, I was completely satisfied with it and now look forward to anything PB does in the future.
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"Satan, laughing, spreads his wings... OH LORD YEAH!!!"

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~Guest 282118
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8300
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:24 pm 
 

Anyone here played Sacrifice? A weird third person RTS about warring sorcerers.

I have vague recollections of playing it at a friend's house when I was a kid and loving it, but then forgot about it and never heard of the game again. Thank Dio for TV Tropes!

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