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rabidmadman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 529
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:15 am 
 

So I've finally decided to start working on my 'Extreme Music Archives' project. I've decided that I'd like house/expose all of the awesome hardcore punk/grind bands that I listen to and provide them with something similar to MA. I am not sure if I will go beyond punk/hardcore/grind/crust/powerviolence and include other extreme sounds which is why I am posting here. What kind of genres belong under the 'Extreme' title? I think i will limit it to all things derivative of punk outside of metal until I fully figure out the guidelines.

This will without a doubt mimic the archives in many ways but the guidelines will be different. This will be an ongoing project of mine for the next 3 months or so and I will post my progress here. I've yet to figure out my database design.

Would this be something others here would be wiling to contribute to? Once all is complete, I will be moderating this myself, but depending on the amount of traffic and user submissions, I will probably ask for help. Is this something that could potentially appeal to fans of extreme music outside of metal? I need some advice..and am wondering if this is something that could potentially be useful to fans of other underground extreme genres. Ideally, I'd like to make a sister site to MA that could potentially house many of the MA rejected bands as well as other genres that are blatantly unrelated to metal.

So do you guys see this as something that could be useful? Metal and the other not so easy listening genres go hand in hand and I feel it would be great to give the other guys the same type of exposure that MA gives. I've been using the archives for over ten years now and it's shaped my tastes and exposed me to a very large quantity of music within the metal realm. I find it much harder to find information about non metal bands and I figure that making a tool for this could solve this problem. If this is something that would be frowned upon, I'd appreciate any honest opinions.

Thanks.

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Back Stabbath
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:15 am
Posts: 138
Location: Terra Nullius
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:33 am 
 

What a good idea. I'd include stuff like blastwave and industrodance though, it's all incredibly extreme and sounds a lot like melodic black metal without guitars to me. I wish you prosperity with this project, MA is such an incredible success story that if someone did a similar thing with other extreme genres it will only inspire more people to make more extreme music and thus our plan for world domination will come to fruition.
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CF_Mono
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 1379
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:34 am 
 

I'm sure it would be splendid in theory, but to be honest I don't see much happening. Here's why...

While it would be cool to have, the thing is, most ideas like this don't take off because there would be so much overlap with MA or some other source. Multitudes of similar pages and sources tend to lead to horrible inflation and poor data distribution on the internet. You either have general music collectivization sites like RateYourMusic, or specialized specific websites like MA, but once you get much broader than that, archiving music becomes kinda pointless.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4673
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:33 am 
 

Do you have the coding skills to build this site?
Do you have the money to host this site?
Do you have a working criteria for judging what is extreme music?
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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 2424
Location: Orocarni
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:09 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Do you have a working criteria for judging what is extreme music?


This is probably what will prove the most challenging. "Extreme" is relative to person, place, and time period. Few people today consider the likes of "Iron Man" extreme, while in the 1950's the Goo Goo Dolls would have been considered extreme. It's hard to imagine the mainstream becoming accustomed to something like noise music but it would have been equally difficult in 1999 to imagine something like Skrillex (aggressive dubstep or "Brostep") becoming normalized. That process barely took ten years.

You can make the same argument ("what is/was metal?") for this site but metal is a far less opaque description than "extreme." Unlike with this site's userbase, there really isn't a substantially large or well-defined subculture of people who listen to all forms of "extreme" music and nothing else, so trying to narrow it down by basing it on culturally-related genres (rather than musically-related genres) will likely prove impossible.


Depending on what guidelines you set up I may make some artist submissions when I have the time, so good luck. :)
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TheNiceNightmare
Veteran

Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:11 pm
Posts: 2966
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:14 am 
 

It's a promising idea in theory, and I wish you the best of luck, but I would remind you for your own sake not to overextend your boundaries. It seems to me that your main point of focus is on various forms of punk, so you should take care not to overextend yourself. It's a big and messy enough project as it is without wasting effort on going too broad. Maybe popping HB or Morrigan a PM on how they got started wouldn't hurt either.

Do you have enough of the right people to get you through this undertaking?
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the_raytownian
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:09 am
Posts: 2146
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:08 am 
 

Good luck.

I couldn't even be arsed to set up a free forum for discussing a punk, HC, grind, etc. archives site... I gotta download a bunch of shit just to open a free forum? No thanks, that's already out of range of my ambitions!
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7420
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:00 pm 
 

Before you do anything, I would suggest you get in touch with one of our moderators, Alhadis. He's been working on an idea that's pretty much exactly what you're talking about, but he also has the benefit of the insider information regarding bands that fit your criteria who have been submitted and rejected/deleted from M-A due to being more ________ than metal (lots of extreme punk stuff, noise, etc.).
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Unity
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:42 pm
Posts: 340
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:04 pm 
 

IMHO, I think you should include genres like Power Noise and Aggrotech.
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rabidmadman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 529
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:22 pm 
 

The team will consist of myself and my friend. We are both software engineers in the beginning of our careers. Although we currently have not worked on anything of this sort, we both have the capacity to learn whatever is necessary. We've both worked with databases before and we'll probably be using python/django and postgres for the DB. We are both very bad at design, so do not expect something as pretty as the Archives in the beginning. Money will not be an issue, especially in the beginning stages (possibly end stages if this is a major flop haha)

I know about Alhadis project (Tome/Tome of something?), but I've yet to see it surface. Someone (Tony? ortab?) mentioned it in the chat a while ago but I haven't seen it yet. When I discussed this idea in the chat few years ago, I wasn't skilled enough to work on the project back then, but now I'm confident that I can do this. Like I said above, my guidelines aren't established and that is why I came here. I greatly value the advice given in this thread because I do not want to just be housing punk/grind bands when there are a lot of other extreme genres. I'd definitely need moderators, so when the time comes, if any of you are interested in helping maintain the user submissions, I'd appreciate it. The guidelines will be less strict than those here. I probably won't limit non physical releases but I really need to actually draft up something similar to this:

http://www.metal-archives.com/content/rules

I already feel like I got a nice head start with that just from reading your replies and I really appreciate this.

In the grand scheme of things, I do not really care if this flops and receives no traffic, but I am happy to give it a shot. I will post updates with my progress to this forum. I'd also like to potentially have a redirect feature where if one tries to search for any metal band already on MA on my site, they'll go straight to the MA page or something similar. The only way I've figured out how to do that is by scraping MA results.....but that will be REALLY slow if I do that for every band. I'm not expecting HB/Morrigan to give me any sort of read access to the DB, so I'll have to figure out some way to do this.

Also, the 'Extreme Music' label is a working label, so that is something I need assistance with as well. I'd like to specialize but include all forms of noisy things.

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OpsiusCato
Mexican Metal Inquisition

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 1279
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:22 pm 
 

It's called "Tome of Noise". Yeah, Alhadis is Da Man.
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InnesI
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 185
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:18 pm 
 

It would be interesting with such an archive. However I do find the subject matter to be way to braod. What is extreme music? How do we define it? By what standards do we measure it? Is it at all possible to do? Think that a huge chunk of metal archives would be included on such a website plus all the other extreme musical expression. Its such a vast project I can't see any horizon for it. Graned, if someone had suggested a metala rchive before there was one I would probably be sceptical of that as well.

I think most genres have extreme expressions included within them. That the suggestions here immediately turned to rock/punk and electronic music is hardly surprising. Personally I come into contact with pretty extreme jazz from time to time and Im sure there are great examples in every genre.

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teh_Foxx0rz
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 9:38 am
Posts: 210
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:37 pm 
 

I think a "Punk Archives" would be a worthwhile thing to exist. I'd even say it should extend to things like nu-metal and stuff since that and its ilk from what I've seen discussed draw more from hardcore than metal which is where many people get hung up on it. I'd say to just stick to one general area like this (like all these punk/hardcore derivatives) for now though rather than getting over your head. You can always expand later.

It would be awesome if an MA-style site existed for every genre of music though, yeah. Something more concrete and rigid (and more clearly formatted) than sites like ProgArchives and Spirit of Rock/Metal, even if those can still be informative. But of course things have to go a step at a time :P

The last thing I'd have to add is to make sure you're working with people like Alhadis rather than against them or else there'll be too much competition and only the one with the most resources will survive if any of them at all. Just as a warning though I hope it's not needed :P

Edit: It would also be neat if there was cross-integration between the two sites as well of some kind, though obviously that kind of stuff is a long way off yet (and is probably not really practical anyway heh)!

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rabidmadman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 529
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:41 pm 
 

I share all of the same questions as the rest of you which is why I hope to use this thread to help me build the ultimate guidelines. I'm working on this with a friend of mine already so we probably will not need any help until it comes down to web design. Maybe I ultimately will just build a universal platform for encylopedias of multiple genres instead.

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the_raytownian
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:09 am
Posts: 2146
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:39 pm 
 

teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
I think a "Punk Archives" would be a worthwhile thing to exist. I'd even say it should extend to things like nu-metal


Um, no thanks.

If anything, it's an extension of Grunge music (or "Post-Grunge", whatever), which was merely an extension of punk itself. It's a gross oversimplification to call it that, even. Grunge was a lot of different things, and that makes Numetal's connection even more tenuous. Just because Tapout bros like both Trapt and Hatebreed doesn't really mean they're related either.

In short: I don't want to see Papa Roach in a "punk" archive because they're not punk. I'll gladly tolerate some garbage like Simple Plan, but I really do not think Numetal belongs at all.

Even if I were indifferent to it, I just don't think there's enough relation to punk to include it any more than I would a 90's "Alternative" band like Failure (who I do like).

Quote:
Edit: It would also be neat if there was cross-integration between the two sites as well of some kind, though obviously that kind of stuff is a long way off yet (and is probably not really practical anyway heh)!

I've suggested this before, but was too lazy to get anything done.

I suggested this too, but never acted on it: If anyone wants to open a free discussion forum to set up guidelines for an archive, I suggest you do so. Consider it a drawing board and a place to throw out ideas for how the site will work, what will be admitted, etc. before you even begin to think about coding and hosting and all that.
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CF_Mono
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 1379
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:18 am 
 

teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
It would be awesome if an MA-style site existed for every genre of music though, yeah. Something more concrete and rigid (and more clearly formatted) than sites like ProgArchives and Spirit of Rock/Metal, even if those can still be informative. But of course things have to go a step at a time :P

This is something I've secretly wished existed for ages. Man, can't you imagine all the dorks ripping apart, like, platinum albums from Billy Joel (28 reviews, 71%), or hoarding collectible singles from their favorite one-hit-wonder 80's pop artists (1 review, 100%)???
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