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aChapo
Token Jew

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 697
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:18 pm 
 

So after reading Sin City, Watchmen and The Spirit, I am looking for more graphic novels to read.



Also, I would like to discuss Graphic novels as a literary tool.
Books, as you all know, have no pictures, forcing the reader to envision the events, characters and the settings of the story's themselves. Graphic novels on the other hand, do all the work for the reader, making them read the dialogue only (as everything else is there).


Do you think the "Graphic" part of graphic novel detracts from the reading "experience", or just adds to it?
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pseudodraconis
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:34 pm
Posts: 313
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:36 pm 
 

Graphic novels make you imagine a little less, since the exact picture is right there for you, as opposed to books giving you words that you use to create the picture. You could argue that both are spelling it all out for you, but graphic novels are more exact, and some books are more vague in descriptions than others. I don't think it detracts from the reading experience, since you can still immerse yourself into the story without having to imagine things from the words. Plus you still have to imagine what each character sounds like, and their body language, from the still pictures.

I'd like to get into graphic novels. I've read some of Sandman, and I really like it. I read V for Vendetta and thought it was neat. The library had Watchmen there once, and I regret not grabbing it when I saw it, because I haven't seen it since. I hear about it, with the movie coming up and all, a lot.
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KingHenry
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:33 am
Posts: 114
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:46 pm 
 

Most are pretty boring, especially the tide of crap focusing on 'superheros'. The only two i could honestly put on a par with real literature would be Watchmen and the second half of the Sandman series.
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hippiedrow
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 1720
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:56 pm 
 

pseudodraconis wrote:
I'd like to get into graphic novels. I've read some of Sandman, and I really like it. I read V for Vendetta and thought it was neat. The library had Watchmen there once, and I regret not grabbing it when I saw it, because I haven't seen it since. I hear about it, with the movie coming up and all, a lot.

Sandman rules, but they cost $19.95 each over here. :(

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Zdan
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2027
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:03 pm 
 

KingHenry wrote:
Most are pretty boring, especially the tide of crap focusing on 'superheros'. The only two i could honestly put on a par with real literature would be Watchmen and the second half of the Sandman series.


I suggest you read into some of those "superhero" graphic novels. A example I could throw your way would the "The Killing Joke", "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" and "Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth" - all of those are Batman graphic novels which could be and should be considered real literature - subject matter, style, type of presentation. I really suggest you do your homework before posting.

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aChapo
Token Jew

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 697
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:30 pm 
 

I'm going to get Sandman and the Batman ones, thanks for the rec's.


Pseudodraconis = I have all of watchmen (all 12 chapters) on my PC in JPEG format, PM me if you want them.

anything else?
I'm looking for obscure comics, not the more popular ones.
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Zdan
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2027
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:32 pm 
 

aChapo wrote:
I'm going to get Sandman and the Batman ones, thanks for the rec's.


Pseudodraconis = I have all of watchmen (all 12 chapters) on my PC in JPEG format, PM me if you want them.

anything else?
I'm looking for obscure comics, not the more popular ones.


You said obscure and this is pretty popular but try the "Preacher" series by Ennis - a total winner. Also "Black Orchid" by Gaiman and McKean is quite good.


Last edited by Zdan on Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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UnserHeiligeTod
Lagompräst

Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:45 pm
Posts: 1057
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:34 pm 
 

30 Days of Night and From Hell are some of my favorites. Way superior than their movie versions. Also, I'll jump on the bandwagon and recommend Watchmen. It's that good.
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Chaos_Llama
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:04 pm
Posts: 430
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:37 pm 
 

I really want to read Watchmen.

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Zdan
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2027
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:38 pm 
 

UnserHeiligeTod wrote:
30 Days of Night and From Hell are some of my favorites. Way superior than their movie versions. Also, I'll jump on the bandwagon and recommend Watchmen. It's that good.


Watchmen are really something. I'll also reccomend them again and throw in some reccomendation for the Doom Patrol - especially the Grant Morrison run of the title. Check it out - it's really more of a comic than a graphic novel but it really can be seen as both. And the Doom Patrol is a genius concept among comics - a band of not-so-super heroes battling surrealistic, dadaic sorts of villains. And inner struggles of course.

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lastdodobird
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:35 pm
Posts: 417
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:42 pm 
 

Reading Watchmen right now. Loving it so far.

I really loved Alan Moore's "Batman: The Killing Joke" - That is where Heath's Joker was based on, and it shows.

I like the Sandman series as well.

The advantage I think for Graphic Novels are in the hands of the writer and artists. They have more control over the details to reveal to the reader since GNs are also a visual medium - they show pictures. So in a sense, they are more "controlling" of their audience than authors of normal novels.

Whether that is good or bad really depends on the skill of the creators of the graphic novel - if they are able to properly enhance and complement their story with effective visuals. Watchman in particular is a great GN beause it has a lush story and the images that accompany it are very detailed to the point that most people miss tiny details that Moore and Gibson sneaked in somewhere.

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ScaryMonsters
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:37 pm
Posts: 135
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:47 pm 
 

Sandman is fucking brilliant, as is Gaiman for the most part. That guy can really weave a tale when he puts his heart into it. Anasi Boys anyone?
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WarriorsDawn
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:24 am
Posts: 88
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:34 am 
 

Superman Red Son is pretty great. Commie Superman and Terrorist Batman ftw

SPOILERS

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KingHenry
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:33 am
Posts: 114
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:49 am 
 

Zdan wrote:
KingHenry wrote:
Most are pretty boring, especially the tide of crap focusing on 'superheros'. The only two i could honestly put on a par with real literature would be Watchmen and the second half of the Sandman series.


I suggest you read into some of those "superhero" graphic novels. A example I could throw your way would the "The Killing Joke", "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" and "Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth" - all of those are Batman graphic novels which could be and should be considered real literature - subject matter, style, type of presentation. I really suggest you do your homework before posting.

I have The Killing Joke, and The Dark Knight Returns, and the Preacher series [including a signed 'good ol boys'], and Hellblazer etc etc. Interesting, but they in no way can compare to real literature. Also the Nemesis series from 2000AD beats the shit out of the aforementioned graphic novels, as does pretty much anythung written by Pat Mills.
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Zdan
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2027
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:42 am 
 

KingHenry wrote:
Zdan wrote:
KingHenry wrote:
Most are pretty boring, especially the tide of crap focusing on 'superheros'. The only two i could honestly put on a par with real literature would be Watchmen and the second half of the Sandman series.


I suggest you read into some of those "superhero" graphic novels. A example I could throw your way would the "The Killing Joke", "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" and "Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth" - all of those are Batman graphic novels which could be and should be considered real literature - subject matter, style, type of presentation. I really suggest you do your homework before posting.

I have The Killing Joke, and The Dark Knight Returns, and the Preacher series [including a signed 'good ol boys'], and Hellblazer etc etc. Interesting, but they in no way can compare to real literature. Also the Nemesis series from 2000AD beats the shit out of the aforementioned graphic novels, as does pretty much anythung written by Pat Mills.


Then please do explain to me how "The Killing Joke" cannot be compared to real literature. It is essentially a tale of human madness and the breaking point of sanity. And the presentation, language and etc are real literature.

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Dark_Gnat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 484
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:15 am 
 

The Dark Knight Returns - big social commentary on '80 politics, which amazingly (or sadly) still applies today. A 60-year-old Bruce Wayne decides to come out of retirement, and kick some ass, only to go too far in the eyes of the public. Sonne the man of Steel is sent by President Reagan to deal with the situation.

Arkham Asylum: Serious House on Serious Earth - fantastic artwork (Dave McKean, also know for a few metal album covers) and a thought provoking story about insanity, and whether or not Batman is as insane as the inmates of Arkham.
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RelentlessEwok
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:49 am
Posts: 99
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:09 pm 
 

4 words.

The Dark Knight Returns

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8740
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:24 pm 
 

KingHenry wrote:
I have The Killing Joke, and The Dark Knight Returns, and the Preacher series [including a signed 'good ol boys'], and Hellblazer etc etc. Interesting, but they in no way can compare to real literature.


Except for the fact that is is real literature and you're blatantly false. :nods:

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josephus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:04 am
Posts: 1288
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:50 pm 
 

I read Watchmen, after only hearing about it from the hype for the movie, and from posters on this board like rexxz. I thought it was really good. Not just good for a graphics novel mind you, just really, really good by any standards. :)
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lastdodobird
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:35 pm
Posts: 417
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:45 pm 
 

RelentlessEwok wrote:
4 words.

The Dark Knight Returns

1 word > 4 words

watchmen > TDKR

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DrOctavia
Do Dark Horses Dream of Nightmares?

Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 9:02 pm
Posts: 1344
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:50 pm 
 

Watchmen is the crowning jewel of graphic novels, in my opinion. It's almost unfair to compare any others to it.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 18741
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:51 pm 
 

The Killing Joke is a prime example of how to make an old comic character story relevant and intellectual. It's a masterpiece.

I love The Long Halloween too, even more than The Killing Joke, but they are enjoyable on two different planes. TLH is more of a traditional whodunit/mob story crossed with a lot of nice insight on Batman and his two teammates. I liked the Godfather homages too.

Watchmen is masterful, but I don't consider it the pinnacle of comic storytelling; just a great story in itself, very well done.

I plan to check out Preacher and Doom Squad sometime, and Sandman.
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alexanderthegreat
Metal Barbarian Dinosaur

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:34 pm
Posts: 1916
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:46 pm 
 

Most people have mentioned the heavyweights, but I'd also recommend Barefoot Gen and Maus: they aren't "superhero" related, but they utilize art and text together to make a fascinating experience.

Quote:
Do you think the "Graphic" part of graphic novel detracts from the reading "experience", or just adds to it?


I think the graphic novel experience is different from a reading experience, similar to how it's different from watching a film or viewing a painting. Scott McLeod's book Understanding Comics has a great overview of "sequential art" such as graphic novels.
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aChapo
Token Jew

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 697
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:01 pm 
 

Thanks a lot for all of your recommendations!
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Morbidreich
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:19 pm
Posts: 267
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:30 am 
 

RelentlessEwok wrote:
4 words.

The Dark Knight Returns


I always loved that one, also the sequel The Dark Knight Strikes Again is great.

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Affliction
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:11 am
Posts: 700
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:00 am 
 

Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, a bleak look at contemporary life, mental illness and alternative culture.

From the creator of Invader Zim, so if you like that style of humor, this should be right up your alley (although this is much more adult orientated).
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Zdan
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2027
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:40 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
The Killing Joke is a prime example of how to make an old comic character story relevant and intellectual. It's a masterpiece.

I love The Long Halloween too, even more than The Killing Joke, but they are enjoyable on two different planes. TLH is more of a traditional whodunit/mob story crossed with a lot of nice insight on Batman and his two teammates. I liked the Godfather homages too.

Watchmen is masterful, but I don't consider it the pinnacle of comic storytelling; just a great story in itself, very well done.

I plan to check out Preacher and Doom Squad sometime, and Sandman.


That would be the Doom Patrol. And do check it out - one of the most bizzare, insane, twisted view of society, personal encagement and the superhero genre.

And try Enki Bilal's Nikopol trilogy. Totally diffrent in style - but pure genius!

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eternal_sin666
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 10:30 am
Posts: 232
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:14 pm 
 

I personally really loved the original The Crow graphic novel (all the other series they did sucked... really really bad). I thought it was at least a hundred times better than the movie and I already liked the movie.

I know a lot of people like Sandman but I don't know... I didn't find it too appealing in the first issue. Maybe I should get them again.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9450
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:09 pm 
 

Fuck superhero bullshit, Transmetropolitan and Preacher are where it's at.

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StryckenFromHistory
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:27 pm
Posts: 271
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:12 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Fuck superhero bullshit, Transmetropolitan and Preacher are where it's at.
Preacher is godly.
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iPodMonkey
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:33 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:40 am 
 

Well I Gotta say you gotta be careful when choosing a Graphic Novel. I've picked up a few here and there that were absolutely terrible. But on a happy note, Here's a few that you may enjoy:

Superman: Red Son - A DC Alternate story of how Superman crash landed in the Ukraine during the cold war instead of the United States.

Marvel 1602 - Another alternate story of a handful of memorable Superheros (and villains) if they existed during the Elizabethan era in England.

Maus - There are currently 2 volumes out right now (they're not THAT big) and they're fantastic. It's a story by Art Spiegelman about his father's time in Nazi Germany as a Jew. Pick it up. Seriously.

Batman: Gotham by Gaslight - A Batman story taking place during the 1800's in England. Batman chases down Jack the Ripper.

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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1058
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:30 am 
 

If you want a real headfuck, check out "The Invisibles". Great stuff.

Hellboy is great on a more pulpy level too.
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squeebsquab
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 53
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:07 am 
 

Palestine by joe sacco is a pretty good GN along the lines of Maus. Joe Sacco actually visited the west bank and the gaze strip in the late 80's or early 90's i believe and talked to people on both sides of the conflict and documented it this graphic novel. His artwork is amazing to boot. He did a couple of other GNs like this too which i havent read yet.

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aChapo
Token Jew

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 697
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:20 am 
 

Thanks again for all the rec's.

I started reading Sandman, and it's orgasmic.



Anyone know of comics that deal with regular people and insanity (TDK returns =/= regular people). I'm looking for tales about REAL people, not superheroes, no magic, etc.

Thanks.
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Lychgate
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:20 am
Posts: 450
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:04 am 
 

Two series I find greatly enjoyable and very well written are: Lucifer, a Sandman spinoff written by Mike Carey about Lucifer (surprise), and The Invisibles which is about a group of supernatural "agents" working against government and authority.
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 590
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:14 am 
 

aChapo wrote:
I started reading Sandman, and it's orgasmic.

I never understood the hype behind Sandman. I've read half of the series, and though it is very good so far, its definantly not as good as people made it out to be.

I've taken a brake from that series and I am now in the process of reading The Watchmen to see what the huss and fuss is about. I gotta say, so far its pretty fucking cool. I now understand why alot of fans are already thinking that the movie is going to suck ass. There's alot of things in that series that simply cannot fit in a movie format.

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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 2563
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:44 pm 
 

History of Violence & the Alan Moore-penned Swamp Thing collections. That stuff is fucking amazing.
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Zdan
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2027
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:47 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
History of Violence & the Alan Moore-penned Swamp Thing collections. That stuff is fucking amazing.


Swamp Thing is seriously one of the most underrated comic book heroes ever. Moore's spin on things really made the character come into his own niche I think.

I would also reccomend the Moon Knight stories to everyone. If you would like to see a more mystical, crazier and more cold-blooded take on the Batman archetype read those. They are really great.

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lastdodobird
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:35 pm
Posts: 417
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:29 pm 
 

I just took up reading Kingdom Come by Alex Ross and I'm really loving the artwork!

Superman with long ponytail + facial hair = WINNER (hehehe)

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9450
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:47 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
I never understood the hype behind Sandman.


Me neither. I read the first trade paperback and it plunged me into a coma, so I stopped.

Quote:
I've read half of the series, and though it is very good so far, its definantly not as good as people made it out to be.

Five word filters in place, and people still manage to misspell it... I give up. :ugh:

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