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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:20 am 
 

Who is saying that they shouldn't defend themselves? Certainly not I, and I hope you're not extrapolating that onto my statements.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:20 am 
 

But theocracy is "universally wrong," too.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:26 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Who is saying that they shouldn't defend themselves? Certainly not I, and I hope you're not extrapolating that onto my statements.

Not you per se, but it is usually implied with other pro-American imperialists on this board.

So you're saying if America was to make the first move and attacked Iran, Iran would be justified in striking the U.S.? Or defense in terms of fending off the American invaders? The first one is the more commonly adhered to definition of self-defense as a lot of countries believe that the only way to defend themselves is to wage war on the country that initially attacked them.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:27 am 
 

Any military strike against any country would call for defense. This is not a matter of right or wrong, it's how the world works. People defend themselves, simple action and reaction.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:28 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
But theocracy is "universally wrong," too.

Yes and no. I think groups like the Taliban in Afghanistan took it to its most extreme point, but Islamic theocracy has worked for Arab nations for centuries until the inception of Israel and their partnership with the U.S.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:29 am 
 

All theocracy is inherently wrong. Whether it works or not is irrelevent.

Usefulness of something does not prove it to be correct. That is a common mistake of defenders of religion, to make such a utilitarian argument.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:37 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Any military strike against any country would call for defense. This is not a matter of right or wrong, it's how the world works. People defend themselves, simple action and reaction.

I agree with you 100% there. Not that I would need to explain it to you as you are one of more sensible people on this board with no particular bias. But what I'm saying is, it's a common mentality in this part of the world to believe that the enemies of America are not entitled to self-defense because of the reasons we're attacking them for. For example, the war in Iraq was initiated by the Americans and was unprovoked by the Iraqis, but we still thought it was okay to go in there and fuck them up because of our "good intentions". The Iraqi nationalists, as you know, didn't have an army to defend themselves with thus they resort to guerilla warfare and other underhanded ways of fighting such as suicide bombing, etc. Then we look at these martyrs who are dying to defend their country and way of life from neurotic invaders from the West and think to ourselves "These people are sick!" and therefore think that because the Iraqis resort to these methods of fighting (given their cause), we are justified in decimating the country. It doesn't matter how bad it gets there, as long as we get the big, bad evil terrorists. Iraq is in such an internal state of decay, nothing good can be salvaged from this entire conflict. Saddam may be gone, but there will always be people out there to replace him. So can you really say the end justifies the means?

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:44 am 
 

I am very much aware of the usage of guerilla warfare and the reason such tactics are needed. You don't need to tell me Iraq was a mistake, I know that much. It's something I'm very ashamed of, but the cards have been dealt and now all I think of is the best way to play the game.

I think it's very important to global security that the middle east has political reform, though. Sometimes that reform must be forced by an outside party.

The overwhelmingly negative influence that the Islam has on that region is astounding. Even in the most secular of Islamic countries, 70% of the population say suicide bombing is justifiable method of defense. That to me is just insane.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:52 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
The overwhelmingly negative influence that the Islam has on that region is astounding. Even in the most secular of Islamic countries, 70% of the population say suicide bombing is justifiable method of defense. That to me is just insane.

Why isn't it? Remember in that thread about the Muhammed cartoons being reprinted I said that they shouldn't be reprinted because it will cause another international crisis and a lot of people could be hurt in the process? You, Morrigan and pretty much everyone else in that thread opposed me and said dying for the cause of defending a nation's way of life from invaders is always worth it. Can the same concept not be applied to the Muslims? They're only extremists in our eyes because they take their opposition to a jaw-dropping extreme that most would not resort to. So by your logic, these people would be the most heroic of us all.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:56 am 
 

Let me clarify. 77% of people in Lebanon think it is justified to use suicide bombing against non-combatants in the name of faith.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:59 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Let me clarify. 77% of people in Lebanon think it is justified to use suicide bombing against non-combatants in the name of faith.

Those stats are most likely a great overexaggeration. It's probably another attempt at demonizing Muslims even further. Can you provide the link to that stat, please?

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:03 am 
 

Sure I'll find them. But why do you think it's an attempt at demonization, simply because you disagree with it?

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The_Count
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:04 am 
 

Viral wrote:
I agree with you 100% there. Not that I would need to explain it to you as you are one of more sensible people on this board with no particular bias. But what I'm saying is, it's a common mentality in this part of the world to believe that the enemies of America are not entitled to self-defense because of the reasons we're attacking them for.


That is not even a notion I share, If you dig back on this forum deep enough on a similar topic this issue came up and I went so far to say I do not put it against the extremist who planned and executed 9/11. By all means they are free to do what ever they feel is necessary to achieve the goals they set fourth.

At the same time they should not be surprised when we go into said persons country and carpet bomb it day and night.

All's fair in war and war. :wink:
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:08 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Sure I'll find them. But why do you think it's an attempt at demonization, simply because you disagree with it?

No. Because it just sounds like an unrealistic exaggeration and furthering of the stereotype of the majority of Muslims being extremists. So I guess I can say that based on the stereotypes of Americans, the majority of you are socially backwards, gun-toting, low-class rednecks?

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:09 am 
 

That's not even close, this is a stat based on polls in the country.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:10 am 
 

The_Count wrote:
All's fair in war and war. :wink:

Even in warfare, there are still rules. If you want to think that way, what's stopping you guys from obliterating the Middle East with nukes? Nuke them and Bin Laden and his crew will no longer have anywhere in the region to hide.

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The_Count
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:12 am 
 

Viral wrote:
The_Count wrote:
All's fair in war and war. :wink:

Even in warfare, there are still rules. If you want to think that way, what's stopping you guys from obliterating the Middle East with nukes? Nuke them and Bin Laden and his crew will no longer have anywhere in the region to hide.


Because if we did that how would we get the fuel I need to gas up my hummer for my monthly trips down to Texas for some rattle snake hunting? :lol:
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:16 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
That's not even close, this is a stat based on polls in the country.

I don't believe it, personally. It could be a form of Israeli/American propaganda. While I do not doubt there's possibly an extremist mentality amongst some of the populace, it's ridiculous for a country to have such a general way of thinking. Again, provide the stats when you can.

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Viral
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:17 am 
 

The_Count wrote:
Viral wrote:
The_Count wrote:
All's fair in war and war. :wink:

Even in warfare, there are still rules. If you want to think that way, what's stopping you guys from obliterating the Middle East with nukes? Nuke them and Bin Laden and his crew will no longer have anywhere in the region to hide.


Because if we did that how would we get the fuel I need to gas up my hummer for my monthly trips down to Texas for some rattle snake hunting? :lol:

I dunno. Do you just hunt them or do you eat them too? I heard snake is actually pretty tasty if prepared the right way.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:19 am 
 

http://people-press.org/report/165/what ... ks-in-2002

My memory of the exact number of the percent was off by a bit, but there you have it:

Image

I recommend reading the article too.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:28 am 
 

If that were true, then yeah, it is pretty extreme. But I guess they would rather have their people be dead than to live under the Americans which shows their burning desire to keep the ways of Islam alive in their societies. Dying rather than living under the enemy is an ideology not exclusive to Islam.

You can keep trying to get rid of them, but they will always be standing defiant. Whether or not you think what they do is right, they will never stop just because you don't like it.

The most sensible thing to do would be to fall back and leave the region to prevent future deaths of soldiers and others in service over there. But I guess the American government sees this War on Terror as a must-win conflict...no matter what the cost. Ironic that your government doesn't mind sacrificing lives for a long lost cause, but the very people you hound you view as animals for doing the exact same thing.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:30 am 
 

I don't mind self-sacrifice, but what I do mind is violence against non combatants. I condemn it when my country does it as I condemn it from any other. And it seems to me that Islam has a very strong correlation in the attitudes of the populace about this thing, which is one of my main reasons for disliking this religion above all others.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:48 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
I don't mind self-sacrifice, but what I do mind is violence against non combatants. I condemn it when my country does it as I condemn it from any other. And it seems to me that Islam has a very strong correlation in the attitudes of the populace about this thing, which is one of my main reasons for disliking this religion above all others.

Yes. The only thing I've respected about Islam (call it a sickening respect if you want to) is their fierce devotion to the religion which says more than Christianity or Judaism does since both these religions are full of liars who say one thing and turn around and say another. But Islam has always had that iron will devotion to it that separates from the other two Abrahamic religions. This devotion causes them to kill those who deviate away from it. I agree it's wrong, but then again, wouldn't not doing this be not following one's religion accordingly (I'm saying this from the extremist's point of view)?

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:54 am 
 

Yeah and that is why the dogmatism of religion is especially cruel and wrong, because it is immune to scrutiny. Not literally of course, because it is criticized all the time, however in the eyes of the religious, they know what they think is right (with no justification). These are very harmful ideals and it just so happens that Islam is in a severe state of regression that can not be stemmed. Sam Harris outlines a few terrifying scenarios in his book The End of Faith about "Jihad and the Power of the Atom" which is, I think, a very real and very probable event that everyone should be worried about.

It's no real surprise why nearly every non-muslim country does not want Iran to achieve nuclear power. It may seem like a disgusting double standard but I think it is the safest thing for the world, at least on a large scale for that to not happen any time soon.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:08 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Yeah and that is why the dogmatism of religion is especially cruel and wrong, because it is immune to scrutiny. Not literally of course, because it is criticized all the time, however in the eyes of the religious, they know what they think is right (with no justification). These are very harmful ideals and it just so happens that Islam is in a severe state of regression that can not be stemmed. Sam Harris outlines a few terrifying scenarios in his book The End of Faith about "Jihad and the Power of the Atom" which is, I think, a very real and very probable event that everyone should be worried about.

It's no real surprise why nearly every non-muslim country does not want Iran to achieve nuclear power. It may seem like a disgusting double standard but I think it is the safest thing for the world, at least on a large scale for that to not happen any time soon.

And the West believes it is it's duty to alleviate the problem...hence suffering for the world outside of the Middle East begins. If you and other like-minded individuals learned to stop sticking your noses into other people's business, then these things wouldn't happen. But you do, thus prepare to accept the consequences of your actions. Bush started this war, now he sees fighting an invisible enemy is futile. America is starting to learn that this whole endeavor was futile from the very beginning, but if John McCain is elected, all hope of the healing process continuing will be lost and both sides will be plunged into even further chaos.

I personally no longer care as I've realized there is no future and there's nothing left to look forward to. So despite my bias, I really no longer care who wins. If the world collapses on itself as the result of all this and we all die in the process, then it's probably for the best. Any logical person can see that peace is not possible because of our own humanity. If you look at the history of the world, there were times when things were better for everyone, but war still existed. Conflict has existed since the dawn of man and still does to this day. So really, what do you or anyone else in this world have to look forward to? Say radical Islam, or for your sake, Islam as a whole, was eliminated. What makes you think a new evil in the world isn't going to rise out of those ashes and cause resurgance of mayhem unto the world? Everything is one big cycle which leaves everyone a loser and this planet even more fucked than it was previously.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:12 am 
 

Human suffering and violence has sharply declined at a very steady rate since the beginning of our species. I do not agree with your idea that everything is fucked and there is nothing to look forward to; simple data trends disprove that.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:16 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Human suffering and violence has sharply declined at a very steady rate since the beginning of our species. I do not agree with your idea that everything is fucked and there is nothing to look forward to; simple data trends disprove that.

There's no doubt that everyday life for man has improved over the millennia, but at the same time we're always finding new ways to make life harder for ourselves, new and more efficient ways to kill and destroy each other, etc. We could very well one day collapse under our own genius. That time could come soon.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:18 am 
 

Well then to say there is nothing to look forward to is a bit intellectually dishonest. In fact I think it is imperative that we strive even more for global understanding and the dismantling of oppressive dogmatic systems that seem to be irrefutable such as religion. There's no reason to give up hope.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:22 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Well then to say there is nothing to look forward to is a bit intellectually dishonest. In fact I think it is imperative that we strive even more for global understanding and the dismantling of oppressive dogmatic systems that seem to be irrefutable such as religion. There's no reason to give up hope.

You're looking at all this from an American point of view. You're not that little child in Iraq whose leg has been blown off because of an American mortar assault on his town. You're living in a country where these afflications are non-existent. So of course it's easy for you to say there is still hope in the world.


Last edited by Viral on Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Viral
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:23 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Well then to say there is nothing to look forward to is a bit intellectually dishonest.

Of course I didn't mean it that sense. But I think you know what I meant.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:24 am 
 

No, I'm looking at this from an objective point of view, observing global historical trends which prove that there is in fact hope for humanity to improve even more than it already has.

Oh:

Quote:
You're not that little child in Iraq whose leg has been blown off because of an American mortar assault on his town.


And neither are you. But then again that little jab is entirely irrelevent.

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Viral
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:27 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
And neither are you.

Moreso than you. I'm from that region and wish no further harm to come to it (at this point an unrealistic wish). It wouldn't effect you thought as you have connections or ties to that land, your American way of life would remain undefiled.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:28 am 
 

Viral wrote:
Say radical Islam, or for your sake, Islam as a whole, was eliminated. What makes you think a new evil in the world isn't going to rise out of those ashes and cause resurgance of mayhem unto the world? Everything is one big cycle which leaves everyone a loser and this planet even more fucked than it was previously.

Maybe it is a cycle after another, but that does not mean that we should give up everything within this cycle and let that evil to flourish.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:30 am 
 

Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
And neither are you.

Moreso than you. I'm from that region and wish no further harm to come to it (at this point an unrealistic wish). It wouldn't effect you thought as you have connections or ties to that land, your American way of life would remain undefiled.


Raw sentimentality aside, it still pertains very little to the topic of global hope.

As people we are to set aside our subjectivity and biased thoughts when analyzing that which is objective. Simple fact of the matter, the world has been drastically improving in terms of human suffering since our species began.

Now if you'd like to try to appeal to emotion once more I'll gladly reject it again.

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Viral
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:33 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
And neither are you.

Moreso than you. I'm from that region and wish no further harm to come to it (at this point an unrealistic wish). It wouldn't effect you thought as you have connections or ties to that land, your American way of life would remain undefiled.


Raw sentimentality aside, it still pertains very little to the topic of global hope.

As people we are to set aside our subjectivity and biased thoughts when analyzing that which is objective. Simple fact of the matter, the world has been drastically improving in terms of human suffering since our species began.

Now if you'd like to try to appeal to emotion once more I'll gladly reject it again.

Wasn't trying to. Just making a point as to why it would be easier for you to say these things that you say.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:35 am 
 

As I said,

Quote:
As people we are to set aside our subjectivity and biased thoughts when analyzing that which is objective.


Matters not where you come from. It is science.

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Viral
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:36 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
Viral wrote:
Say radical Islam, or for your sake, Islam as a whole, was eliminated. What makes you think a new evil in the world isn't going to rise out of those ashes and cause resurgance of mayhem unto the world? Everything is one big cycle which leaves everyone a loser and this planet even more fucked than it was previously.

Maybe it is a cycle after another, but that does not mean that we should give up everything within this cycle and let that evil to flourish.

The problem with most people is that they see one thing and their own neurosis turns it into something astronomical that must be dealt with.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:38 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
As I said,

Quote:
As people we are to set aside our subjectivity and biased thoughts when analyzing that which is objective.


Matters not where you come from. It is science.

Easier said than done. You just can't see where I'm coming from on this issue. I understand where you're coming from, but you can't understand it's not so easy to just set your beliefs aside for someone else's simply because they believe theirs to be right.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:39 am 
 

Viral wrote:
Kruel wrote:
Viral wrote:
Say radical Islam, or for your sake, Islam as a whole, was eliminated. What makes you think a new evil in the world isn't going to rise out of those ashes and cause resurgance of mayhem unto the world? Everything is one big cycle which leaves everyone a loser and this planet even more fucked than it was previously.

Maybe it is a cycle after another, but that does not mean that we should give up everything within this cycle and let that evil to flourish.

The problem with most people is that they see one thing and their own neurosis turns it into something astronomical that must be dealt with.

In such a case other people should explain to them. But sometimes people do see the problem correctly.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:40 am 
 

Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
As I said,

Quote:
As people we are to set aside our subjectivity and biased thoughts when analyzing that which is objective.


Matters not where you come from. It is science.

Easier said than done. You just can't see where I'm coming from on this issue. I understand where you're coming from, but you can't understand it's not so easy to just set your beliefs aside for someone else's simply because they believe theirs to be right.


So what is your point? That there are uneducated and brainwashed people in the world? This does not change a thing.

I fully understand what you're trying to say, but the reality is it makes no difference when talking about and observing these objective facts.

However you are obviously not brainwashed or uneducated, yet you're the one claiming there to be no hope in the world. What's your excuse?

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