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mentalalex
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:30 pm
Posts: 15
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:22 pm 
 

We have all seen the recals. The lead in the toys. The falty products.
(I recently bougt a 6 foot valve wrench made in china made out of aluminum, It broke in half when I used it on a catch basin at work. This was due to air bubbles in the metal, which for those of you who dont know is caused by cooling the metal too fast. Which shows what a hurry they are in to crank these things out.)
I think we've all had enough of that shit, but can we do anything about it?
Does China have Americas nuts in a vice?

We also seen the frequent disease outbreaks, and disasters that stike there.
Consequences of uncontrolled rapid growth?

And last but not least, the god awful amounts of pollution.
Will any steps be taken to stop the toxins floting over Beijing from doing even more major damage then they have done?

MA what do you think of China and their impact on the world?

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:34 pm 
 

I do not know enough about products from China to decide if they are trying to give Americans the shaft or if there is a great conspiracy to send us faulty goods.

I am interested to see where this topic goes. I will be breaking out my tin foil hat out on this one but I am already very nervous when it comes to China. In particular the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation. Especially with Iran applying for membership.

NATO really needs to be revamped :ugh:
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ebola_legion
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:00 am
Posts: 67
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:41 pm 
 

I don't think China has the United States nuts in a vice, I think China has the worlds nuts in a vice. There are plenty of things we could do to get out of trading with China, the question is are we willing? And I think the answer is no. I would like to thank Unions that just can't stand the thought of modernization, so instead of having such jobs stay in the U.S. they would rather see them shipped off to other parts of the world :ugh:

As for all of these global conservation steps and programs, how does one go about telling over a billion and a half people what to do?
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Musick
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:44 pm 
 

mentalalex wrote:
...MA what do you think of China and their impact on the world?


Its the Wal-mart-itization of the US.

Its as much the fault of the US (demanding cheaper and cheaper goods) as it is China. The US will not stop transactions with China until its people wise up and see that quality costs.
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ebola_legion
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:00 am
Posts: 67
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:48 pm 
 

Musick wrote:
Its as much the fault of the US (demanding cheaper and cheaper goods) as it is China. The US will not stop transactions with China until its people wise up and see that quality costs.


Well put.
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juicebitch
Juice Bitch

Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:57 am
Posts: 1568
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:57 pm 
 

mentalalex wrote:
We have all seen the recals. The lead in the toys. The falty products.
(I recently bougt a 6 foot valve wrench made in china made out of aluminum, It broke in half when I used it on a catch basin at work. This was due to air bubbles in the metal, which for those of you who dont know is caused by cooling the metal too fast. Which shows what a hurry they are in to crank these things out.)
I think we've all had enough of that shit, but can we do anything about it?
Does China have Americas nuts in a vice?

We also seen the frequent disease outbreaks, and disasters that stike there.
Consequences of uncontrolled rapid growth?

And last but not least, the god awful amounts of pollution.
Will any steps be taken to stop the toxins floting over Beijing from doing even more major damage then they have done?

MA what do you think of China and their impact on the world?


well pollution for China isn't a very high priority...still needs to grow. more pollution is inevitable.

i don't see how 'disasters that strike' are the consequence of uncontrolled rapid growth??

disease outbreaks are due to poor hygiene, ignorance, government coverup (e.g. SARS) and live animals in food markets.
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Noobbot
Mors_Gloria + Thesaurus

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:48 pm
Posts: 426
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:34 pm 
 

Musick wrote:
mentalalex wrote:
...MA what do you think of China and their impact on the world?


Its the Wal-mart-itization of the US.

Its as much the fault of the US (demanding cheaper and cheaper goods) as it is China. The US will not stop transactions with China until its people wise up and see that quality costs.


Oi. And thank science for industrial outsourcing! No longer is the domestic economy even near sefl-sufficiency. Instead, we rely upon a service-based economy based on nothing but resale and hot air. Collapsing it will be a rather simple task. At any rate, this empire had its time, and it seems the time is now running short. All that can be done now is reducing the impact of the downfall so that we may not sink so much as Rome did.

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giventotherising
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 7:54 am
Posts: 52
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:31 am 
 

China quite literally "owns" the US.

Also, most major western nations have produced just as much pollution, just it matters now as the situation becomes ever more critical.

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Gorgo
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:37 pm
Posts: 441
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:59 pm 
 

You can't blame China for making economical progress, everyone deserves it. And the polution thing isen't actually the fault of China, but from the oil companies. If they weren't that powerfull and being such bitches we would already have more environmental products on the market for transport. It should be about time that one government in the world has the balls to say: "Fuck you and your oil".
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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:06 pm 
 

Gorgo wrote:
You can't blame China for making economical progress, everyone deserves it. And the polution thing isen't actually the fault of China, but from the oil companies.=



How exactly isn't it? At least make a compromise with that statement and say it's both. The government can always make regulations.

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super_bum
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:15 pm
Posts: 23
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:12 pm 
 

I agree with anyone who said that production of goods should be shifted to domestic lands. That way we won't be dependent on foreign nations and we will be self-sufficient. I also believe that population growth should be a major concern. More people would mean higher demand for products and services. Which would in turn require more resources to provide those goods.

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ScaryMonsters
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:37 pm
Posts: 135
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:31 pm 
 

Eh, as much as China may be a thorn in your guys' backside, they're never going to present themselves as a legitimate power, the day they truly fuck over America is the day you boys shut down your plants their and what's left but an economic vice grip on their population?

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666head
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 180
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:52 am 
 

Well, China has always produced shit, but not everything that comes from China IS shit. Anyways, I don't think China is evil or anything, its just that people there are mostly poor, and they don't charge a whole lot for their work. Also, consumers don't really care about that stuff. Most of our products say "Made in China" or "Made in Taiwan". Besides, historically, China has always produced many goods, and of course, they should keep their population down.

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:14 pm 
 

Here is an interesting article I read on the China subsection at military.com

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 66809.html

It is about Chinese defects killing American soldiers.
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giventotherising
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 7:54 am
Posts: 52
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:02 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
Here is an interesting article I read on the China subsection at military.com

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 66809.html

It is about Chinese defects killing American soldiers.


What utter misinterpertation your comment is. What you should of written was that it was a Texas company profitting from this war and that it's failure to unkeep it's national standards preferring to abide by the host nations lower regulations (so they can make alot more $$$) is what is killing your servicemen. They decided to use undoubtly cheaper and unsafe equipment while being all the time aware of this!

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:11 pm 
 

giventotherising wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Here is an interesting article I read on the China subsection at military.com

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 66809.html

It is about Chinese defects killing American soldiers.


What utter misinterpertation your comment is. What you should of written was that it was a Texas company profitting from this war and that it's failure to unkeep it's national standards preferring to abide by the host nations lower regulations (so they can make alot more $$$) is what is killing your servicemen. They decided to use undoubtly cheaper and unsafe equipment while being all the time aware of this!


The Corporate corner cutters are equally responsible but the blame is not entirely on them. China has a long history of sending us faulty goods, I have many many more links on garbage they send us if anyone is interested.
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FateMetal
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:09 am
Posts: 305
Location: Uganda
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:24 pm 
 

All China wants for it's citizens is the same lifestyle that most Western countries had acheived by 1950. But they got away with it because they were the first countries to industralize, and China won't because it has come so late in the game.
The Chinese people want prosperity and they have waited so damn long for it. But they cannot have it in the classic Western style.

Take the cars alone. Within a decade China will be the second largest automobile manufacturer on the planet - but for half of the Chinese population to own cars, the World's total stock of vehicles must double. For half of Indians and Brazilians and Africans also to own cars (and all these countries have similar expectations) ,the car population of the world must triple.

It does not work at the local level (we all know how China is heavily polluted), and it does not work at the global level. It is taboo to say so outside of the scientific and environmental circles, because China and India are the main motor driving the world economy but it cannot go on like this.

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trainofthought
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:04 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:13 pm 
 

super_bum wrote:
I agree with anyone who said that production of goods should be shifted to domestic lands. That way we won't be dependent on foreign nations and we will be self-sufficient. I also believe that population growth should be a major concern. More people would mean higher demand for products and services. Which would in turn require more resources to provide those goods.


And what if the country has neither the means nor the resources to produce domestically? This is the reason why trade exists. A country can never be self-sufficient. Take this for an example, a country produces, or wishes to produce, a certain good. Now, this country does not have the raw materials/components needed for this. Hence it imports from another country but what if the latter country decides that it no longer wants to trade with the former?The country will just have to satisfy themselves by not having that product in their country at all and be "self-sufficient"

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giventotherising
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 7:54 am
Posts: 52
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:51 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
The Corporate corner cutters are equally responsible but the blame is not entirely on them. China has a long history of sending us faulty goods, I have many many more links on garbage they send us if anyone is interested.


I give you that, but this was an American company not keeping up the standards they would of domestically to save a few bucks. Sorry if I went off on abit of one.

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DBettino
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 2151
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:36 pm 
 

If you buy a shitty car and it breaks down, do you then blame the manufacturer of the car? You were the one that chose the inferior product. If criticism is to be levelled at anyone, it should not be at China. Our businesses have made the decision to save a buck and manufacture overseas. To direct our anger at China is stupid, and much to the purposes of our government and business leaders.

China is seen by many Americans as being one giant sweatshop. The days of Mao are over. Chinese, by and large, are quite content with their nation's newfound wealth. They get bank loans, start businesses, drive cars, live in cities, watch basketball, all that shit. The Chinese are doing fine.

(And that's not a response to any of the previous posts, just a comment on the general misperceptions by many Americans concerning China.)

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EOS
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:25 pm
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:59 pm 
 

Gorgo wrote:
And the polution thing isen't actually the fault of China, but from the oil companies.

It's the type of cost-benefit analysis ever country takes while industrializing. Hopefully later the Chinese people will want to clean their air and energy, if they know what's good for them.

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Danthrax_Nasty
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:50 am
Posts: 1560
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:58 pm 
 

FateMetal wrote:
Take the cars alone. Within a decade China will be the second largest automobile manufacturer on the planet


I would just like to add to this point that China's automotive manufacturing could only rise to such heights if they actually learn how to design a car that isn't worthless in comparison to the Japanese, European (especially), and American (not so much) manufacturers.

As for positive products of china, let me just say that my wifes wok, finely crafted in china, and assorted ingredients (from China) can often be cause for awesome deliciousness (although I'll admit you often have to pay for quality). Not to mention Hong Kong puts out some great films which are nicely accompanied by a fairly decent Yanjing beer (although I prefer Tiger beer which does have a Chinese brewery, but originally came from Malaysia I believe).

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mrchris
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 954
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:38 pm 
 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080612/ap_ ... na_hacking
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PhantomOTO
Exterminator 666 Does Not Answer

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 am
Posts: 3242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:30 pm 
 

This is a forum for serious discussion, mrchris, not just posting a single link with no commentary.

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JBlacksmith
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:24 pm 
 

Well, I think China has become a leading country, it can't compete with USA in army but in economy they're getting pretty close.
It's a shame, they are making Tequila and Virgen de la Guadalupe statues and selling it to mexicans. I even knew some italians who bought mexican hats as souvenirs and later read the tag that said "Made in China".

But it will come to an end. Did you know that there are regions that speak their own dialect? I believe that China will be divided into several countries like Yugoslavia in some decades.
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Danthrax_Nasty
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:50 am
Posts: 1560
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:53 am 
 

JBlacksmith wrote:
Did you know that there are regions that speak their own dialect?

Well the Chinese language is just a broad title for a family of languages made up of 7 main dialects, and a handful of others. They are often not just divided by region but class also. Most Chinese people speak multiple forms. Which leads me to your next point:

JBlacksmith wrote:
I believe that China will be divided into several countries like Yugoslavia in some decades.

I would seriously doubt language being any factor here, and even more so doubt that the country will be divided into smaller countries. The Chinese government and ruling class would never let that happen.

And since were on the topic of products of China, I recently read this and found it to be rather interesting (although overly biased). I agree that if you really are against the Chinese products, just be an intelligent and conscious consumer (which I'll admit is hard for some people). There really is no need for a government ban of products when boycotting can work just as well. But in general, as I stated before, you pay for what you get, and not every product of China is shit, just like not every American product is of higher quality.

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Noobbot
Mors_Gloria + Thesaurus

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:48 pm
Posts: 426
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:18 pm 
 

Danthrax_Nasty wrote:
JBlacksmith wrote:
Did you know that there are regions that speak their own dialect?

Well the Chinese language is just a broad title for a family of languages made up of 7 main dialects, and a handful of others. They are often not just divided by region but class also. Most Chinese people speak multiple forms. Which leads me to your next point:

JBlacksmith wrote:
I believe that China will be divided into several countries like Yugoslavia in some decades.

I would seriously doubt language being any factor here, and even more so doubt that the country will be divided into smaller countries. The Chinese government and ruling class would never let that happen.

And since were on the topic of products of China, I recently read this and found it to be rather interesting (although overly biased). I agree that if you really are against the Chinese products, just be an intelligent and conscious consumer (which I'll admit is hard for some people). There really is no need for a government ban of products when boycotting can work just as well. But in general, as I stated before, you pay for what you get, and not every product of China is shit, just like not every American product is of higher quality.


Exactly. The whole thing about Chinese products in general is that there is usually terrible quality control. There are some manufacturers who are thoroughly horrible at what they do, but for the most part the issue is quality control.

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Kulturtrager
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:12 pm
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:32 pm 
 

A little tale from a China resident: Recently I was using a very popular Chinese online chat network, discussing the corruption of the earthquake officials, Tibet autonomy and the imprisonment of Chinese citizens for sedition with a Chinese student mind you; a very impressive young woman who sees through the mind control - only to receive a call from my immediate Chinese work manager that I was to soon receive a visit from the Foreign Police Dept.

He continued that I should know that a foreigner was expelled from the Middle Kingdom just the other day for expressing opinions contrary to Chinese doctrine, and it became blindingly obvious that my web work was being monitored: something I had suspected, but until then had been unable to confirm.

The cops are coming. They plan in fact to visit every laowei (foreigner) in town who intends to be here for the Olympic period....a friendly talk 'ey guv...

China becoming more powerful, more of a world influence? Be scared people, be fucking terrified to your bones...

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pluto
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:57 pm
Posts: 44
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:46 pm 
 

I have nothing against China or Chinese folk but I am sick of finding almost everything being made in China. I try hard to find alternatives, even if they cost more, to help other economies how ever little difference it makes. I don't believe dependency on a single country is good for any nation and with the current situation, it seems like its hurting. I'd rather have my money stay within Britain or Europe or even the USA because I feel I will see the benefit and have my money invested closer to home. So, to an extent I believe China does have the worlds nuts in a vice and partly due to greed of Western nations wanting cheap items at maximum profit.

To be honest, Chinese products are pretty piss poor quality compared to products made in Europe or the USA. I don't feel like my money would be well spent on something from China. Dime a dozen for stuff made their by some slaves beaten and abused and worked beyond their ability to cope with. I just wish retailers and products were more clear about where the items are made and come from because the country of origin is often a deciding factor for me.

Unfortunately for me, I am wearing trousers made in China but I am still wearing my jacket made in New York and hooded top made in England. I do try and stick by what I say.

JBlacksmith wrote:
Well, I think China has become a leading country, it can't compete with USA in army but in economy they're getting pretty close.


China could compete with the USA in terms of military might. Imagining a conflict involving China as an opponent is very scary. China has even started researching and developing fifth generation fighter jets - layman's terms: aircraft with stealth technology as well as other advance components. They could well be on the way to being nearly level to the USA in military technology. Not only that, the Chinese army dwarfs the US Army in size by quite a bit. I believe the the USA would have the advantage in terms of experience but to be honest its not something I want to think about. Though Finland managed without being fully equipped and organised!

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:36 pm 
 

pluto wrote:
China could compete with the USA in terms of military might.


They're not even close. It'd be like sending 30 Zerglings against 10 Siege Tanks. They would get slaughtered and don't have nearly the number advantage by a large enough margin to do much.

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pluto
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:57 pm
Posts: 44
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:57 pm 
 

Number advantage? The Chinese army is huge. When I say huge they have the biggest army in the world. Not only that, they have a far larger number of people who could be drafted in, by about 300 times that of the active personnel in the US Army. The USA will have the advantage of experience. China - just the sheer size and probably the ability to mass produce supplies.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:12 pm 
 

I am 100% aware of the size of China's army and population. The point stands, though. Their advantage would be annihilated in the face of far superior tech during total war.

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Kulturtrager
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:12 pm
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:33 am 
 

All this discussion of military strength is missing the point. China will grow in influence and power through propaganda and financial manipulation of weaker nations.
War is the last thing on their minds. I've met Chinese soldiers. They readily admit to how poor their military is; they are out to buy the world, not fight with it.

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rexxz
Retired

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:46 am 
 

I absolutely understand that, too. Which is why I'm not worried about war with China.

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Master_Debater
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:54 pm
Posts: 104
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:52 am 
 

Oh please. It's not in the best interests of either country to attack the other.

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MormonHolocaust
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:21 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Kansas City
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:25 pm 
 

Quote:
The Corporate corner cutters are equally responsible but the blame is not entirely on them. China has a long history of sending us faulty goods, I have many many more links on garbage they send us if anyone is interested.
(I’m using this as an example for the many comments like this being made)

I’m confused; are you treating products simply made in the People’s Republic of China (the true China, that is) or are you specifically discussing products produced in state owned factories? I find it awkward, to say the least, to blame the Chinese government and the Chinese people for what a Corporate entity sells to people in America.

Quote:
A little tale from a China resident: Recently I was using a very popular Chinese online chat network, discussing the corruption of the earthquake officials, Tibet autonomy and the imprisonment of Chinese citizens for sedition with a Chinese student mind you; a very impressive young woman who sees through the mind control - only to receive a call from my immediate Chinese work manager that I was to soon receive a visit from the Foreign Police Dept.


Quite frankly I think this all this noise being made about “Tibetan Freedom” is bull. The Dalai Lama in exile (and, mind you, his claim as disputed) claims to be heir to a regime which – prior to Mao’s reincorporation of the area into China – was one of the most backward in the world. A conservative estimate is that three fourths of the population was serfs or slaves (I’ve seen figures as high as 95%). This means the majority of the people were not “human beings” but property.

To top it off, the government was one of the most reactionary in existence; a theocracy aligned with a comprador aristocracy; a self legitimizing machine wherein the rulers were the holy by nature not of their deeds or work, but because a (bullshit) religion claimed the rulers had sinned less in a prior life.

Those facts alone should earn the Dalai Lama as an asshole of the first degree; the kind of figure who should go down in the history books with asshats like Mussolini.

Yet, for some reason – metal fans, despite an otherwise militant opposition to mystical nonsense, are actually warming up to one of the most asinine versions of Buddhism to be produced….

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Kulturtrager
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:12 pm
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:10 pm 
 

Chinese apologists find their way on to the most obscure threads. Hello to all the goose-steppers out there!

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:55 pm 
 

That sort of comment doesn't add anything to the discussion. Please refrain from that kind of thing.

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MormonHolocaust
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:21 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Kansas City
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:29 pm 
 

Quote:
Chinese apologists find their way on to the most obscure threads. Hello to all the goose-steppers out there!


I am astounded by your logic; you’ve now made me sympathetic to a Theocratic Despot. Congratulations.


Anyways, on to information:

“The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.”

“The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.”

“In 1904 Perceval Landon described the Dalai Lama’s rule as “an engine of oppression.”

“Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.”

“In 1937, another visitor, Spencer Chapman, wrote, “The Lamaist monk does not spend his time in ministering to the people or educating them. . . . The beggar beside the road is nothing to the monk. Knowledge is the jealously guarded prerogative of the monasteries and is used to increase their influence and wealth.”

“The Dalai Lama's annual payment from the CIA was $186,000. Indian intelligence also financed both him and other Tibetan exiles.” (note: this was during the 1960s and admitted by the Government in 1998)

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