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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:35 pm 
 

U wil nt regrat it #brolo
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volutetheswarth
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:40 am 
 

Metantoine wrote:
DRD, just a reminder that the language of the forum is English :-D
Yep, that's right. Because I sure as hell couldn't understand a single word he was saying. Needless to say DeathRiderDoom fails hard and has the temper of a child.

I'm watching Catche now, DD, and I'm liking how it's progressing so far. I'll probably post a review in the next couple of days once it's properly digested. As for Haneke's other films, I didn't care for The Piano Teacher and found it meandered with filler too much for my taste but I felt Benny's Video was striking and about equal to Funny Games. I have little interest in seeing Amour as it seems too restricted and plainly bleak although The White Ribbon seems like an interesting watch. Upon reflection I almost get a Stanley Kubrick meets David Lynch mish-mash of quality with Michael Haneke, never afraid to set the camera down for a long conversation with minimal to no cutting while experimenting with film in such an unconventional way. Sure, he doesn't have big open shots but what is there is highly picturesque and his fly on the wall approach is mesmerizing and oddly engrossing.

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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:31 am 
 

That article about Funny Games touched on an interesting and really cool point in Haneke's work, and that's his use of violence. I love the way he handles it - very carefully, sparingly, and always with grave purpose. And thus all the more effective when it does occur, which in his films it almost inevitably does.

Also interesting to note is the way that his portrayal of violence and death never fails to leave a really ugly, cold, disgusting impression... nothing "cool" or "entertaining" about it at all. It's great.
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Nochielo
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:20 am
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Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:28 am 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
Also interesting to note is the way that his portrayal of violence and death never fails to leave a really ugly, cold, disgusting impression... nothing "cool" or "entertaining" about it at all. It's great.

Heh.
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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:50 am 
 

I'm not following you, Nacholibre...
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Necessitarian
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 147
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:00 am 
 

Depends on your definition of the word entertaining, I guess. To me it's definitely entertaining, it's just not light entertainment. All art is entertainment on some level, even art with a message, and even art with an uncomfortable message. (edit: noticed that point is about the use of violence, rather than the movie as a whole; I still agree with my assessment though)

The point about the effective use of violence is very true however. Even more so in Benny's Video, even though I didn't think the movie as a whole was that good, mainly because it got so bogged down somewhere in the middle that I had difficulties finishing it. It looked liked it could've been a good half hour shorter while still getting the point across.

I've seen Der freie Wille, which is another film with effective use of violence. I think I even heard about the movie on this very forum. It's a great, ponderous film, probably better than either of the Haneke ones I've seen. There are certainly at least some superficial similarities between this and Benny's Video to my uneducated movie fan brain, so much so that if someone told me they were from the same director, it certainly wouldn't surprise me if I didn't already know better.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:07 am 
 

OK, I just finished Funny Games. It was a gigantic pile of pretentious trash. I read the article that darkeningday linked, and now violently dislike Michael Haneke. The whole "uuu, the audience is complicit in the violence" thing is so fucking tired and stupid. The whole "uuu, real life actually isn't like the narratives in movies!" is obvious to a child. That's the entire reason people watch movies; because they're NOT LIKE REALITY.

Everything about Funny Games is boring, and if it's not boring, it's stupid, and if it's not stupid, it's pretentious. -∞/10.
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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:12 am 
 

GER or US version?
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:14 am 
 

US.
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Necessitarian
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:20 am
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:34 am 
 

failsafeman wrote:
The whole "uuu, the audience is complicit in the violence" thing is so fucking tired and stupid.

Is it really that tired? I certainly don't know that many movies to take that angle. I can't really think of any others at the moment. Or do you mean generally, as in public discourse or whatever?

failsafeman wrote:
That's the entire reason people watch movies; because they're NOT LIKE REALITY.

Speak for yourself dude. I'd say a that a good portion of my favorite movies are very much like reality, just focusing on the interesting bits and having the boring bits cut out. The farther away from reality they go, the less likely they are to be all that poignant.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:42 am 
 

Necessitarian wrote:
Speak for yourself dude. I'd say a that a good portion of my favorite movies are very much like reality, just focusing on the interesting bits and having the boring bits cut out. The farther away from reality they go, the less likely they are to be all that poignant.

Someone forgot to tell Michael Haneke about that part.
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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:49 am 
 

Eeeeeeenteresting. I'll inquire further into your conclusions once I've sobered up, but I still wanted to point out how cool it is that the reactions (all from very intelligent, film literate peeps) here have been so staunchly divided. I think the "You'll either love it or hate it" disclaimer that so many people are quick to fix to movies that aren't 100% mainstream is extremely overused because there's such a wide spectrum of likes and dislikes across all the audience members but here... IDK. It actually seems to be quite apt!

Is there anyone here who was just merely 'lukewarm' to Funny Games?
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volutetheswarth
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:05 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Eeeeeeenteresting. I'll inquire further into your conclusions once I've sobered up, but I still wanted to point out how cool it is that the reactions (from very intelligent, film literate peeps) here have been so staunchly divided.

You'd think they saw the baby scene in A Serbian Film. 'Burn him at the stake! How dare he go out of the confines of normal cinema!'

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:15 am 
 

Yeah, because I clearly watch only normal cinema :roll:
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volutetheswarth
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:22 am 
 

What are you even talking about? :scratch:

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failsafeman
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Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:28 am 
 

Allow me to refresh your memory, because apparently you can't remember what you wrote half an hour ago.

volutetheswarth wrote:
You'd think they saw the baby scene in A Serbian Film. 'Burn him at the stake! How dare he go out of the confines of normal cinema!'

The bit in quotations is your mocking characterization of people who had reactions to Funny Games that were similar to mine, i.e. violent dislike, the implication being that the reason for our reaction is that we object to Haneke's going outside the confines of "normal cinema." Which is bullshit.
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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:31 am 
 

Don't tell me you took offence to that little fictional generalised quote that wasn't souly directed at you?

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:37 am 
 

Calling bullshit ≠ taking offense
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volutetheswarth
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:40 am 
 

Seems like you're making a mountain out of a molehill to me.

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caligulasremains
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 4:09 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:59 am 
 

saw oblivion twice loved it. heavy gnostic overtones, much less subtle than the taoist undertones of tron 2 (same director).

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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:58 am 
 

It's interesting to see how incredibly divisive Haneke's stuff can be. This isn't the first time there's been a bit of chair-throwing in here when it comes to Funny Games. One main thing it illustrates that I appreciate about his filmmaking (and that I think I was trying to describe but didn't manage earlier) is that it seems to be really good at instigating a dialogue, whether internal or outward, about not only "what Haneke was trying to say" but what we as viewers think and feel about what he was trying to say. It's not art that's meant to be passively watched and accepted by the audience - the viewer is almost called upon to become part of the artistic experiment, to carry the findings of that experiment into real life in some way, whether or not those findings concur with his "message." I always find some source of debate and struggle in coming to terms with what he presents... morally, ideologically, artistically, etc, and in that internal debate I feel there's more to be gained by watching his stuff, even to the point of annoyance or outrage, than a strict entertainment piece like Pacific Rim.
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Necroticism174
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Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:46 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:56 am 
 

Yes everyone, Funny Games was a turd, but at least it was better than Dogville :p
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Nochielo
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:20 am
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Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:02 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
I'm not following you, Nacholibre...

I'll assume you mean me, with a disclaimer: not everyone who speaks Spanish is Mexican, man. I don't really mind, but I know people who can get genuinely offended at that.

Anyway I just thought it was funny that Starmere said the violence wasn't entertaining but "great" (meaning "I enjoyed it", I take it?) which borders on a contradiction. I know what he meant, I just thinks it looks... odd.
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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:05 pm 
 

Nochielo wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
I'm not following you, Nacholibre...
I'll assume you mean me, with a disclaimer: not everyone who speaks Spanish is Mexican, man. I don't really mind, but I know people who can get genuinely offended at that.

Did you know that Jack Black isn't Mexican either? Crazy, I know :-P

Seriously, though, it was meant as nothing more than a movie-based pun on your name, like people have a tendency to do in the, yanno, movie thread.

Necroticism174 wrote:
Yes everyone, Funny Games was a turd, but at least it was better than Dogville :p

Ah yes, the movie you still haven't successfully conveyed what you didn't like about it, as pretty much everything you did claim you didn't like about it was obviously not what the movie was actually about. Cheers!

Under_Starmere wrote:
It's interesting to see how incredibly divisive Haneke's stuff can be. This isn't the first time there's been a bit of chair-throwing in here when it comes to Funny Games. One main thing it illustrates that I appreciate about his filmmaking (and that I think I was trying to describe but didn't manage earlier) is that it seems to be really good at instigating a dialogue, whether internal or outward, about not only "what Haneke was trying to say" but what we as viewers think and feel about what he was trying to say. It's not art that's meant to be passively watched and accepted by the audience - the viewer is almost called upon to become part of the artistic experiment, to carry the findings of that experiment into real life in some way, whether or not those findings concur with his "message." I always find some source of debate and struggle in coming to terms with what he presents... morally, ideologically, artistically, etc, and in that internal debate I feel there's more to be gained by watching his stuff, even to the point of annoyance or outrage, than a strict entertainment piece like Pacific Rim.

Agreed. I've always seen Hanake, and to a lesser extent De Sica (and a good chunk of the neorealism movement), as the Alexander Popes of cinema; the audience is tasked with "active intellectual participation" in order appreciate and fully absorb the work.

I still need to see Benny's Video...
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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:20 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Seriously, though, it was meant as nothing more than a movie-based pun on your name, like people have a tendency to do in the, yanno, movie thread.

Nah, it's ok, I understand and don't really mind, I liked the movie. It's just that I've seen some Latinos get really upset when they get lumped in like that. I imagine it's the same reaction Asians get when they get lumped in with the Chinese/Japanese. I guess I'm a little hurt I can't think of a movie name that sounds like "darkeningday"...
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:25 pm 
 

:roll: So I was supposed to "actively intellectually participate" in watching them fumble with the goddamn cell phone for 10 minutes? Then I'd have appreciated and "properly absorbed" it? I mean really now, I basically get what Haneke was doing, creating an anti-home invasion style movie, and I even sort of agree with it. Obviously he's not a fan of the home invasion/torture porn style movies that have been popular lately, he thinks they're sick, etc. Fine. I even agree with him for the most part. I think that style of movie is cheap, exploitative, and not good horror. But so what? Anyone can make a movie with A Message. It's much harder to make a movie that conveys that message well and in an entertaining way. Things like character development, dialog, pacing, narrative structure, plot, all of those require much more skill than just making a movie with A Message, if you don't care about being entertaining. "But the point is that it WASN'T supposed to be entertaining!"

This is what cracks me up so much about this dialog about the movie. The people on one side are saying it was fucking boring, the people on the other side are saying it was fucking boring too, but it's supposed to be boring...yet somehow that makes it OK??
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:30 pm 
 

Actually, I thought it was a pretty interesting story too, butwhatdoIknow,IlikedBeowulf.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:54 pm 
 

failsafeman busted out the almighty triple dog dare, so I just sat through Funny Games, as well. I don't violently dislike the movie itself as much as he does, but it does suck pretty fucking hard.

That home invasion/torture porn movies are distasteful is so fucking obvious that I'm struggling to understand how Haneke somehow views himself as the only self-aware creator of such films. I think it's pretty laughable that he somehow feels that moviegoers genuinely think that all of the horrific violence in these kinds of movies is "cool" and don't want anything to do with the mundane, "real" aftermath or effects such violence has on "real" people. Pretentious as fuck. That actually comes right back around to the inclusion of Naked City in the film's soundtrack; a bunch of pretentious art school "grindcore" played by people with elevated senses of self-importance, parodying the extremity of grind and metal while simultaneously being completely unaware of actual extreme music's own self-awareness. So, of course, I also disagree with Under_Starmere's assessment that it's at least a good thing that his movies have got us talking about it, since my argument is that Haneke's provocations are the absolute shittiest thing about the movie in the first place.
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ChineseDownhill
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:19 am
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:34 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
That home invasion/torture porn movies are distasteful is so fucking obvious

Is this a bad time to mention that I saw Mother's Day? And that it was directed by the guy who made Saw 2, 3, and 4? Anyway, I can't recommend it. Rebecca De Mornay seemed to be having fun, though.

caligulasremains wrote:
saw oblivion twice loved it. heavy gnostic overtones, much less subtle than the taoist undertones of tron 2 (same director).

I don't know anything about Gnosticism or Taoism, but that didn't stop me from enjoying Oblivion. I'll try to see it a second time when it comes on cable.
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Abominatrix
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:38 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
I dunno about all this Funny Games business but Naked City fucking sucks. It's basically just a New York art school avant-garde composer co-opting grind/extreme metal (extremely shittily) because he probably heard of it once and thought it was totally out there, man.


:lol: Well I know they have a bunch of stuff, but the album that was just called Naked City (I think) and had a cover of music from The Sicilian Connection was much more jazz than anything grind or even close to metal, and I rather enjoyed it many years back. Wasn't really much heavy about it at all except for the odd blasts of noise and the vocalist from the Boredoms screaming his head off in a few parts.

As for "viewers complicit in the violence" of a film...it does seem like something that's been used a lot. Cannibal Holocaust does immediately spring to mind. I think The New York Ripper could be another example. I think some of those old exploitation films are far more self-aware than some realise, without really losing sight of the fact that they are still exploitative.
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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:19 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Anyone can make a movie with A Message. It's much harder to make a movie that conveys that message well and in an entertaining way. Things like character development, dialog, pacing, narrative structure, plot, all of those require much more skill than just making a movie with A Message, if you don't care about being entertaining. "But the point is that it WASN'T supposed to be entertaining!"

Also my problem with Dogville, and pretentious movie snobs in general.
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volutetheswarth
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:28 pm 
 

Honestly people can read into Haneke's films however they like, I personally don't pay attention to 'it's violent because violence is now cool' or what have you, I'm engrossed in what's there on the screen and find most of the added insight distracting. Either way, I don't come away feeling like my intelligence was questioned or I'm a fool for thinking of it a certain way. Truth be told, I didn't originally like how Funny Games ended, I felt it was head-scratching and stupid. Until I saw the remake (which was just like re-watching the original) and then I suddenly could digest it's bizarre nature and better see the strings being pulled by Paul and Peter. I really appreciate Funny Games for being different in a sea of torture porn, for not being coin-able or likeable (the way American Psycho and others have strangely become), and for showing murder and death in a calculated and cold manner that's so starkly present in reality. I appreciate it not having a ray of hope we're all accustomed to when the chips fall down.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:40 pm 
 

One of the things about Funny Games I quite liked was that there was pretty much no gore in it outside of one or two scenes, and even then one of those scenes is only on the outskirts of the camera's frame. Home invasion movies usually end up relying on violence to get by, and Funny Games doesn't do that. Like volute said, it's a very cold, realistic, and just plain depressing look at murder.

I haven't seen the remake, and I don't really have any desire to considering that shot-for-shot remakes tend to be by default inferior.
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Expedience
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Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:22 am
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:36 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
It's interesting to see how incredibly divisive Haneke's stuff can be. This isn't the first time there's been a bit of chair-throwing in here when it comes to Funny Games. One main thing it illustrates that I appreciate about his filmmaking (and that I think I was trying to describe but didn't manage earlier) is that it seems to be really good at instigating a dialogue, whether internal or outward, about not only "what Haneke was trying to say" but what we as viewers think and feel about what he was trying to say. It's not art that's meant to be passively watched and accepted by the audience - the viewer is almost called upon to become part of the artistic experiment, to carry the findings of that experiment into real life in some way, whether or not those findings concur with his "message." I always find some source of debate and struggle in coming to terms with what he presents... morally, ideologically, artistically, etc, and in that internal debate I feel there's more to be gained by watching his stuff, even to the point of annoyance or outrage, than a strict entertainment piece like Pacific Rim.


As long as there's a superior standpoint, there's no debate. We can't watch Funny Games on our own terms - it's there to tell us something. We like watching violent movies and because of that we're bad people. How do you expect us to carry that into real life? Do you think becoming aware of it is going to change us? What's wrong with liking fictional violence anyway? What's worse is Haneke the professor standing with his nose in the air saying 'well, I don't like violence'. I feel that with all his films, there's this suffocating atmosphere, with no room to breathe or move because there is a right and wrong way to watch or interpret what happens. There's a feeling of old-school, academic authority which I don't think belongs in film anymore. If I carry anything into real life it's that I prefer directors who respect their audience enough not to stifle us with their message.

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darkeningday
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:43 pm 
 

and yet you like babylon 5
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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:52 pm 
 

Man, if I met you in real life I would fart on you.
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Expedience
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:59 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
and yet you like babylon 5


At least it's entertaining, which is something you seem to be averse to.

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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:00 pm 
 

Expedience wrote:
As long as there's a superior standpoint, there's no debate. We can't watch Funny Games on our own terms

I'll watch movies however the damn well I please, thank you very much. I don't need to watch The Dark Knight Rises and acknowledge it being a rejection of socialism or the dangers of ignoring social and economic injustice or whatever political bollocks is there, I can easily overlook that aspect because the story itself stands firmly without it.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:10 pm 
 

Expedience wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
and yet you like babylon 5

At least it's entertaining, which is something you seem to be averse to.

Fair enough! I won't challenge you there. You do like Mike Leigh films, though, which are probably not typically referred to as "entertaining," at least by most people's enjoyment metrics. I personally love them and find them very... well... "entertaining."
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Expedience
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:17 pm 
 

So do I. Mike Leigh is very entertaining.

volutetheswarth wrote:
Expedience wrote:
As long as there's a superior standpoint, there's no debate. We can't watch Funny Games on our own terms

I'll watch movies however the damn well I please, thank you very much. I don't need to watch The Dark Knight Rises and acknowledge it being a rejection of socialism or the dangers of ignoring social and economic injustice or whatever political bollocks is there, I can easily overlook that aspect because the story itself stands firmly without it.


That was exactly my point. I haven't seen it yet but I'd much rather watch TDKR than Funny Games.

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