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Blardone
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:03 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:58 am 
 

Hey everyone, a civil war is about to erupt in the south of my country between muslim separatists and the (predominantly christian) government. Anyway, I've recently developed a keen interest in islamic history and culture especially with regard to moorish spain-- seeing that this is a brainier side of the metal-archives forums I'm hoping to soak up whatever knowledge anyone can bring to this thread with regards to the origins of Islam and its founder, Mohammed (speling?).

Educate me!






(Are we all Christians/Agnostic/Devil worshippers here?)

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Cunt_666
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:28 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:15 am 
 

Blardone wrote:
Hey everyone, a civil war is about to erupt in the south of my country between muslim separatists and the (predominantly christian) government. Anyway, I've recently developed a keen interest in islamic history and culture especially with regard to moorish spain-- seeing that this is a brainier side of the metal-archives forums I'm hoping to soak up whatever knowledge anyone can bring to this thread with regards to the origins of Islam and its founder, Mohammed (speling?).

Educate me!






(Are we all Christians/Agnostic/Devil worshippers here?)


I've been studying the Q'ran that I got initially to burn at a gig on September 11 that has subsequently been cancelled. Islam is kind of like a dumbed down version of Christianity in a nutshell, with Mohammed as the head prophet rather than Christ. What exactly did you want to know?
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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:39 am 
 

Blardone wrote:
Hey everyone, a civil war is about to erupt in the south of my country between muslim separatists and the (predominantly christian) government. Anyway, I've recently developed a keen interest in islamic history and culture especially with regard to moorish spain-- seeing that this is a brainier side of the metal-archives forums I'm hoping to soak up whatever knowledge anyone can bring to this thread with regards to the origins of Islam and its founder, Mohammed (speling?).

Educate me!






(Are we all Christians/Agnostic/Devil worshippers here?)


I am interested to hear about the situation in your country, Care to tell us a bit about that?

Also if you can find it this is an interesting read :wink:

Image
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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 4806
Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:40 am 
 

Doesn't "The Crusades were defensive conflicts" negate the whole "crusade" bit?

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Blardone
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:03 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:42 am 
 

The_Count wrote:
Blardone wrote:
Hey everyone, a civil war is about to erupt in the south of my country between muslim separatists and the (predominantly christian) government. Anyway, I've recently developed a keen interest in islamic history and culture especially with regard to moorish spain-- seeing that this is a brainier side of the metal-archives forums I'm hoping to soak up whatever knowledge anyone can bring to this thread with regards to the origins of Islam and its founder, Mohammed (speling?).

Educate me!






(Are we all Christians/Agnostic/Devil worshippers here?)


I am interested to hear about the situation in your country, Care to tell us a bit about that?

Also if you can find it this is an interesting read :wink:

Image


Well sorry to say several hours after I posted this thread I learned in our evening news that the fighting just ended so chances of another Civil War are unlikely.

But who knows? maybe by tomorrow our army and the MILF (Moro Islamic Liberation Front) will be going eyeball to eyeball again.

However, you do want a backgrounder so here it is: The Philippine government has been engaged in an on-again-off-again civil war in our second largest island, Mindanao, which is in our south.

It started when a group of saboteurs who were supposed to be used by our government to destabilize the nearby island of Sabah ( I guess you need a map of SE Asia to understand my brief explanation) were massacred by their Phillipine Army trainers in the early 70's. They were being trained to infiltrate Malaysian territory and be part of a Philippine annexation of the island, thereby expanding our country's territory and stature in SE Asia.

Well, the operation never got off the ground since the dudes were killed and when the Malaysians got wind of this they supported a nationalist movement in Mindanao, providing them bases in the disputed island of Sabah and funneled weapons and training to them from Libya. Thus began our separatist problem.

Though the Muslims were finally given an autonomous homeland in the mid-90's, a breakaway group calling itself the MILF continues to confront government forces in their struggle for an independent muslim homeland.

The renewed hostilities this past week were a result of a deal almost being signed in Malaysia (hmmm. . .) that would have granted the MILF their own state, one that overlapped the already autonomous muslim region granted previously.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity. for more info, either ask your filipino neighbors about it (if you got any) or check out the MILF's website (hehehehe)

BTW, thanks for the reference.

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Blardone
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:03 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:49 am 
 

Cunt_666 wrote:
Blardone wrote:
Hey everyone, a civil war is about to erupt in the south of my country between muslim separatists and the (predominantly christian) government. Anyway, I've recently developed a keen interest in islamic history and culture especially with regard to moorish spain-- seeing that this is a brainier side of the metal-archives forums I'm hoping to soak up whatever knowledge anyone can bring to this thread with regards to the origins of Islam and its founder, Mohammed (speling?).

Educate me!






(Are we all Christians/Agnostic/Devil worshippers here?)


I've been studying the Q'ran that I got initially to burn at a gig on September 11 that has subsequently been cancelled. Islam is kind of like a dumbed down version of Christianity in a nutshell, with Mohammed as the head prophet rather than Christ. What exactly did you want to know?



Thanks for the initial reply, what I really want to learn about is his life and times. I want the historical Mohhamed and since this part of the MA forums is pretty intellectual maybe someone can enlighten me.

I know that he was a member of the Quraysh clan and was, by all defintions, a merchant and businessman for most of his life until he became the prophet of a new religion.

I also know that his struggle to establish the Islamic faith in his lifetime was pretty violent, his followers having to do battle wit the Meccans on a number of occasions.

By learning about the man, perhaps I can develop a keener understanding of Islamic Civilization as a whole.

You see, I never bought the whole idea that theirs is a twisted or defective religion given the splendor of Islamic empires that once existed in places like Spain, Egypt, Turkey, Central Asia, and India. I do believe there's more than meets the eye when it comes to the contributions Islam has made to humanity as a whole.

KEEP ON POSTING MOFO's!!!

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Cunt_666
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:28 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:10 am 
 

Blardone wrote:
You see, I never bought the whole idea that theirs is a twisted or defective religion given the splendor of Islamic empires that once existed in places like Spain, Egypt, Turkey, Central Asia, and India. I do believe there's more than meets the eye when it comes to the contributions Islam has made to humanity as a whole.

KEEP ON POSTING MOFO's!!!


Dunno what earthcubed's problem is, but their religion isn't that different from Christianity. What you've said there about the splendor of Islamic empires can also apply to the Catholic church and some of their contributions to humanity. In both cases, they did some good, and a lot of bad. And just like the Bible, the Q'ran can teach you to live in peace, or you could use it to justify killing thousands of people.

Having read both scriptures has made me extremely biased against both religions, so I'm probably not the best person to talk to about this, so unless people start jumping on this post, this will be my last post in this thread.
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megalowho
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 479
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:35 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
:ugh: at the third.


Yeah, I'd be careful with (i.e. not read :lol:) those PIG books. I think I've seen books on global warming denial, Biblical literalism/creationism, and maybe the evils/delusions of homosexuality - books that argue for these things - in the same series.

Karen Armstrong seems to be a pretty respectable author. I read A History of God, enjoyed it somewhat (I'm not a big reader of these things), and remember it being praised widely and highly, with exceptions generally coming from fundies - usually a good sign. She's also written books on Islam and Muhammad.

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lastdodobird
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:35 pm
Posts: 417
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:35 am 
 

Hey Blardone. As you can see, I'm filipino as well and I'm aware of the ruckus down south. Although that's not saying I'm well versed with it.

I agree that Christianity and Islam are that not different. It's actually their similarity that causes them to go against each other so heatedly: Killing and fighting in the name of their god.

It reminds me of the George Carlin bit where he talks about the ten commandments and regarding the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," it's actually more apt if it were "Thou shalt not kill unless some other person worships an invisible man different from you." (paraphrasing here)

Anyway... my point is that if you were interested in Islam because you want to understand why there's so much beef between Christians and Muslims, I think you don't have to look far from home because Christians and Muslims are similar in a lot of ways with regards to their faith (I'm talking more of beliefs and principles here rather than practices).

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Musick
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:29 am 
 

cunt666 wrote:
Islam is kind of like a dumbed down version of Christianity in a nutshell, with Mohammed as the head prophet rather than Christ. What exactly did you want to know?


Actually, Islam and Christianity have vastly different views on major points of ideology and theology, save for the basic idea of doing good unto others.

Islam refutes the idea that Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross. They believe that God spared His messenger from such an ignominious death and later took Him up to Himself. For Christians, the death of Jesus Christ on the cross is the focal point of all that they believe. The only way for man to be reconciled to a Holy God is for the ultimate price to be paid. Christians believe that Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price by shedding His blood.

The religion of Islam has the Qur'an as the source of truth. Muslims believe that the original New Testament, which they call Injil, was the original revelation that Jesus received from Allah. They believe, however, that the Christians of today have corrupted the original Scriptures; therefore the Bible that is read by Christendom today is unreliable. Muslims believe that the message of Muhammad continued the original truths that were outlined in the Injil, and additionally, have corrected the errors that Christians have added. Christians hold that the Bible, including the Old and New Testaments is the infallible Word of God. They believe that God inspired the Scriptures; it is their only source of truth and instruction.

Muslims do not hold to any assurance of salvation. They do not feel that is was even necessary for Jesus to pay for our sins. The belief that they hold is that every man must bear and pay for his or her own sins; for Jesus to be punished and responsible for our sins would be unjust in their eyes. Christians believe that man had no ability to atone for his sins. Christians believe that we are hopelessly lost except for the immeasurable gift of God's grace, which is the only means of salvation.

Blardone wrote:
You see, I never bought the whole idea that theirs is a twisted or defective religion given the splendor of Islamic empires that once existed in places like Spain, Egypt, Turkey, Central Asia, and India. I do believe there's more than meets the eye when it comes to the contributions Islam has made to humanity as a whole.
KEEP ON POSTING MOFO's!!!


First off, ALL religions are twisted, make no mistake. But Islam has made many contributions to society - medicine and surgery, pharmacy and pharmacology, engineering and technology, astronomy and astrology, mathematics and physics, chemistry and geography, botany and zoology, philosophy and history and the arts.

Some general background on Islam: http://regentsprep.org/Regents/global/t ... /islam.cfm

http://www.ais.org/~bsb/Herald/Previous/95/science.html


Alegbra

Classical Roots of the Scientific Revolution
http://metalab.unc.edu/expo/vatican.exh ... _math.html

The Origins of Algebra
http://vmoc.museophile.org/algebra/section3_1.html

List of Arabic Mathematicians
http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/mathhist/arab.html

Highlights in the History of Algebra
http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~sxw8045/history.htm

Arab contributions to mathematics and the introduction of the Zero
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/D ... 42208.html


Geometry

Symmetric Patterns at the Alhambra
http://weasel.cnrs.humboldt.edu/~spain/alh/index.html

Dome of the Rock
http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings ... _Rock.html

Islam and Islamic History in Arabia - Mosque
http://www.islam.org/Mosque/ihame/Sec12.htm

Islam, Knowledge, and Science
http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introducti ... ge.html#29

History of Geometry
http://members.aol.com/bbyars1/contents.html


Astronomy

Greek Astronomy
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exh ... astro.html

Islamic Astronomy
http://physics.unr.edu/grad/welser/astro/arab.html

Islam, Knowledge, and Science
http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introducti ... ge.html#27

Muslim, Scientists, Mathematicians and Astronomers
http://www.cyberistan.org/


Medicine

Arabic (or Islamic) Influence on the Historical Development of Medicine
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/islam19.html

Arab Roots of European Medicine
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/index.htm

Islam, Knowledge, and Science - Medical Sciences
http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introducti ... ge.html#34

Islam and Islamic History in Arabia and The Middle East
http://www.islam.org/Mosque/ihame/Ref4.htm

Medicine in Medieval Islam
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/islam ... ic_02.html
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Blardone
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:03 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:50 pm 
 

@ musick-- excellent post! now this is what I'm looking for!

Thanks man, I really appreciate it.

However, I created this thread to discuss Mohammed-- more specifically the historical Mohammed, the guy of flesh and blood. perhaps you can recommend any online sources?

And please people, if you know something about the dude, feel free to post and let the stream of knowledge grow into a river, and then into a flood!

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:04 pm 
 

Musick wrote:
First off, ALL religions are twisted, make no mistake. But Islam has made many contributions to society


I would say that Islam had nothing to do with those discoveries and scientific advancements. The people did, sure. But the religion not at all.

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Musick
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:33 pm 
 

Blardone wrote:
@ musick-- excellent post! now this is what I'm looking for!

Thanks man, I really appreciate it.

However, I created this thread to discuss Mohammed-- more specifically the historical Mohammed, the guy of flesh and blood. perhaps you can recommend any online sources?


Glad I could help.

Regarding the prophet, maybe you can start here: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamental ... ophet.html
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Musick
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:35 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
Musick wrote:
First off, ALL religions are twisted, make no mistake. But Islam has made many contributions to society


I would say that Islam had nothing to do with those discoveries and scientific advancements. The people did, sure. But the religion not at all.


I understand your point, but I must disagree.

There are many sadden by Hendrix leaving this mortal coil too soon - they blame the drugs/drinking he did. But would his music/legacy have been the same w/o drugs and alcohol?

The rise of freedom and the abolition of slavery were all spearheaded or sought by christians - would they have chosen that fight if they were of another faith?

Religion does not always define, but it can guide. I dont think it is wise to discount the role religion played in advancing our society, especially given the time period to which they are associated.
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rexxz
Retired

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:41 pm 
 

No, I think that religion does far more to hinder scientific progress than it ever has or will have done to guide it.

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Musick
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:57 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
No, I think that religion does far more to hinder scientific progress than it ever has or will have done to guide it.


Both religion and science define the world we live in more so than anything else.
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rexxz
Retired

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:01 pm 
 

What does that have to do with my statement?

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Musick
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:04 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
What does that have to do with my statement?


You made what amounts to the same statement twice, only changing the specifics. I figured I would push the conversation elsewhere.
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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:29 pm 
 

I recommend Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices by Andrew Rippin for a good overview. It's used as a university text, covers Muhammad and different scholarly perspectives on his existence and the validity of the oral history surrounding him. Pretty comprehensive, especially in terms of rituals. You should definitely get such an overview before soliciting anonymous opinions on the internet, misconceptions and anti-Islamic sentiment run rampant and pro-Islam sites are usually not much better.

rexxz wrote:
I would say that Islam had nothing to do with those discoveries and scientific advancements. The people did, sure. But the religion not at all.

Have to disagree here, especially in the case of Islam - the suggestion that the people can be so easily separated from the religion is simplistic and even naive. Islam is a massive part of the history and culture of its followers that there really can be no distinction made. Historically, I'd say that considering science and religion as two separate concepts would be an idea totally foreign to the way of thinking in that culture. Islam is/was a part of everything, and the ideals and values that led to the development and preservation of knowledge referred to by Musick above are as much a part of the religion as anything else. Lots of writers have touched on this idea, I seem to recall What Went Wrong?: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East by Bernard Lewis giving a good, easy to read overview of the historical relationships between Islam and science, technology, even art and music.

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rexxz
Retired

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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:42 pm 
 

Many of "Islam's" scientific dscoveries actually predate the religion itself. Religion really has little to do with the inquisitive nature of man and our capacity to engineer and understand our environment. In fact religion and science don't even belong in the same category, apart from the fact that both are paths to beliefs.

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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:12 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
In fact religion and science don't even belong in the same category, apart from the fact that both are paths to beliefs.

This is some fine rhetoric, but again I don't see how you can so easily claim separation when we're discussing a culture where the idea of science as distinct from religion didn't exist. It is the differences between Islam and Christianity that allowed Islam to flourish scientifically while Christendom did not, an example being the dissection of bodies: taboo in Christian Europe while permitted in the Islamic world. To say that religion had nothing to do with scientific developments is to say that culture had nothing to do with scientific developments. Basically I just don't see how religion can be treated as incidental or irrelevant when discussing history and the development of ideas.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:14 pm 
 

The distinction existed far before Islam was prevalent in those lands, and their scientific advancements continued even when it appeared. I'd say that they didn't need any help from the religion; the people were already on a great course of discovery on their own merits. It was simply a natural trend that would have taken place regardless of any other influences.

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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:31 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
The distinction existed far before Islam was prevalent in those lands, and their scientific advancements continued even when it appeared. I'd say that they didn't need any help from the religion; the people were already on a great course of discovery on their own merits. It was simply a natural trend that would have taken place regardless of any other influences.

Islamic science was largely a continuation of Greek science, is this what you are referring to? What pre-Islamic scientific advancements are you referring to? And surely you realize religion was part of Arabic culture long before Islam rose to prominence... Certainly Islamic scientists in the middle ages would not have given much respect to or sought after knowledge from the Jahiliyyah era. And to claim scientific inquiry would continue inevitably regardless of cultural/religious influence seems rather... ambitious.

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Musick
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:20 pm 
 

wight_ghoul wrote:
...Have to disagree here, especially in the case of Islam - the suggestion that the people can be so easily separated from the religion is simplistic and even naive...


To extrapolate, Islam is much more than a religion: it is a way of life. In many ways it is a more determining factor in the experience of its followers than any other world religion. The Muslims live face to face with their god at all times and will introduce no separation between his life and his religion, his politics and his faith.
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Musick
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:36 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
... In fact religion and science don't even belong in the same category, apart from the fact that both are paths to beliefs.


As said, Islam is much different than all other religions in that is accepts science as long as it does not harm people. Its running after the unknown. Islam encourages seeking knowledge as it is considered an act of worship.
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DeathCroak
Professor R. H. Gumby

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:54 pm
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:30 pm 
 

I know that there is only one sure fire way of entering heaven or paradise in Islam and that is to kill an infidel atleast once in your life. Thus the reason why suicide bombing is so emmensly popular in Islam. And all sins are forgiven as soon as you kill an infidelm that includes suicide. Pretty fucked up to say the least. I don't really believe Islam should be classed as a religion, because it's history is flimsy and inacurate, came way after the bible and claims to be the truth :ugh: Just sounds like a nationalist war cult to me.

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:41 pm 
 

DeathCroak wrote:
I know that there is only one sure fire way of entering heaven or paradise in Islam and that is to kill an infidel atleast once in your life. Thus the reason why suicide bombing is so emmensly popular in Islam. And all sins are forgiven as soon as you kill an infidelm that includes suicide. Pretty fucked up to say the least. I don't really believe Islam should be classed as a religion, because it's history is flimsy and inacurate, came way after the bible and claims to be the truth :ugh: Just sounds like a nationalist war cult to me.


http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/muslimprotest.asp

Nationalist war cult indeed.
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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:39 pm 
 

DeathCroak wrote:
I know that there is only one sure fire way of entering heaven or paradise in Islam and that is to kill an infidel atleast once in your life. Thus the reason why suicide bombing is so emmensly popular in Islam. And all sins are forgiven as soon as you kill an infidelm that includes suicide. Pretty fucked up to say the least. I don't really believe Islam should be classed as a religion, because it's history is flimsy and inacurate, came way after the bible and claims to be the truth :ugh: Just sounds like a nationalist war cult to me.

That's precisely why Islam should be classified as a religion. And it rightfully is.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1917
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:00 pm 
 

Most suicide bombings are politically motivated. You honestly think getting into paradise the reason why they do it? This overlooking way of thinking is exactly why the West will never succeed in their "War on Terror". It's hard to fight an enemy that you can't see most of the time.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:30 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Most suicide bombings are politically motivated. You honestly think getting into paradise the reason why they do it? This overlooking way of thinking is exactly why the West will never succeed in their "War on Terror". It's hard to fight an enemy that you can't see most of the time.

I don't see how politics motivate one to commit suicide. The trainers of suicide bombers would certainly be politically motivated (though they aren't devoid of religious fanaticism), but the bombers themselves are religiously motivated for sure.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1917
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:47 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
Viral wrote:
Most suicide bombings are politically motivated. You honestly think getting into paradise the reason why they do it? This overlooking way of thinking is exactly why the West will never succeed in their "War on Terror". It's hard to fight an enemy that you can't see most of the time.

I don't see how politics motivate one to commit suicide. The trainers of suicide bombers would certainly be politically motivated (though they aren't devoid of religious fanaticism), but the bombers themselves are religiously motivated for sure.

Their way of life is threatened by the West. Would you not die for a similar cause? Most Americans do not realize that Western-styled democracy is not compatible with Islam hence the clashing of ideologies which lead to conflict.

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DeathCroak
Professor R. H. Gumby

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:54 pm
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:50 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
Viral wrote:
Most suicide bombings are politically motivated. You honestly think getting into paradise the reason why they do it? This overlooking way of thinking is exactly why the West will never succeed in their "War on Terror". It's hard to fight an enemy that you can't see most of the time.

I don't see how politics motivate one to commit suicide. The trainers of suicide bombers would certainly be politically motivated (though they aren't devoid of religious fanaticism), but the bombers themselves are religiously motivated for sure.


QFT a political revolutionist would want to live to see his country free, not die miserably. And suicide bombing has been going on long before america's occupation of Iraq and it happens in countries that simply don't grovel at muslim feet. And they always give the same excuse we are not being tolerated, this country isn't ISLAMIC enough see the growing pattern. Iranian's are already protesting against the Islamic reguiem in large numbers, but America never publicize it because they want to secure their war in Iran. Trading weapons for oil, is like making a deal with the devil and thats what Islam is.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1917
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:55 pm 
 

DeathCroak wrote:
Kruel wrote:
Viral wrote:
Most suicide bombings are politically motivated. You honestly think getting into paradise the reason why they do it? This overlooking way of thinking is exactly why the West will never succeed in their "War on Terror". It's hard to fight an enemy that you can't see most of the time.

I don't see how politics motivate one to commit suicide. The trainers of suicide bombers would certainly be politically motivated (though they aren't devoid of religious fanaticism), but the bombers themselves are religiously motivated for sure.


QFT a political revolutionist would want to live to see his country free, not die miserably. And suicide bombing has been going on long before america's occupation of Iraq and it happens in countries that simply don't grovel at muslim feet. And they always give the same excuse we are not being tolerated, this country isn't ISLAMIC enough see the growing pattern. Iranian's are already protesting against the Islamic reguiem in large numbers, but America never publicize it because they want to secure their war in Iran. Trading weapons for oil, is like making a deal with the devil and thats what Islam is.

Indeed. Most Iranians don't even support the Islamic regime in place. I know I usually come off a Muslim-sympathizer, but I'm not all pro-Islam. They've had a negative impact on my people's culture for centuries. I personally do not want Islam to be present in Iran as a main religion, but I have no opposition to other countries wanting a Islamic theocracy in their governments.

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:59 pm 
 

I can now see how politics can motivate it. But I'm pretty sure that religious reasons also play a role.

Viral wrote:
but I have no opposition to other countries wanting a Islamic theocracy in their governments.

Really? Is it just that you don't care about what happens to other countries, or that you think theocracy is okay?

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1917
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:07 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
Really? Is it just that you don't care about what happens to other countries, or that you think theocracy is okay?

I don't think theocratic governments are beneficial to anyone within that country, but to each their own. If they want to fuck themselves over like that, then let them...as long as it doesn't effect me or my people, I could care less.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:08 am 
 

Viral wrote:
I don't think theocratic governments are beneficial to anyone within that country, but to each their own. If they want to fuck themselves over like that, then let them...as long as it doesn't me or my people, I could care less. But unfortunately, the U.S. can't stand to see countries that oppose democracy, so being the champions of the world they are, they feel it's their duty to persuade them into their way of thinking through any means necessary. But obviously this a ruse. The perpetrators behind this whole thing have their own agendas.


Name me one super power in history that did not assert itself on global politics in some way or another. It's just how it works in that position.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1917
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:14 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Viral wrote:
I don't think theocratic governments are beneficial to anyone within that country, but to each their own. If they want to fuck themselves over like that, then let them...as long as it doesn't me or my people, I could care less. But unfortunately, the U.S. can't stand to see countries that oppose democracy, so being the champions of the world they are, they feel it's their duty to persuade them into their way of thinking through any means necessary. But obviously this a ruse. The perpetrators behind this whole thing have their own agendas.


Name me one super power in history that did not assert itself on global politics in some way or another. It's just how it works in that position.

I'm not saying it didn't happen prior to American imperialism, but what I'm saying is it isn't right.

I deleted that part of my post way before you replied to it. How were you able to retrieve it?

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:15 am 
 

Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
Viral wrote:
I don't think theocratic governments are beneficial to anyone within that country, but to each their own. If they want to fuck themselves over like that, then let them...as long as it doesn't me or my people, I could care less. But unfortunately, the U.S. can't stand to see countries that oppose democracy, so being the champions of the world they are, they feel it's their duty to persuade them into their way of thinking through any means necessary. But obviously this a ruse. The perpetrators behind this whole thing have their own agendas.


Name me one super power in history that did not assert itself on global politics in some way or another. It's just how it works in that position.

I'm not saying it didn't happen prior to American imperialism, but what I'm saying is it isn't right.

I deleted that part of my post way before you replied to it. How were you able to retrieve it?

He probably quoted it before you deleted it, but finished submitting the post after you have deleted it.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:15 am 
 

Well, what someone considers right and wrong can differ quite a lot from what another person does.

I didn't retrieve anything, it was there when I hit quote.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1917
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:19 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Well, what someone considers right and wrong can differ quite a lot from what another person does.

I didn't retrieve anything, it was there when I hit quote.

To an extent. There is a universal right and wrong. What makes America's justification of what's right more valid than that of Iran's? If America attacks Iran, is Iran not entitled to defend itself? That's what I always found to be hilarious in all these Middle Eastern conflicts of the past 8 years...if a Muslim country is attacked by Israel or the U.S., they're expected to just stand there and take it because the U.S. are doing it in the name of freedom and justice.

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